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Thread: Fight 117

  1. #41
    BlackAngel84 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxDoLLarBiLLxx View Post
    i hate being right but here

    Tenjou Tenge 6 page 17 | One Manga
    Tenjou Tenge 6 page 18-19 | One Manga

    Aya also said that she knows that Souichirou will someday become stronger than anybody(she can see the future remember?) Tenjou Tenge 6 page 02-03 | One Manga


    again Blackangel, Souichirou and his mother are the only ones who have a demon exorcist form. The Nagi family is the only red feather with the dragon fist. If with training, if you are not a Nagi, you can't go into demon exorcist form.

    And yes the True Warrior is the strongest, why do you think Dougen, Souhakou and others are desperately trying to create the true warrior? And no i dont think Souichirou is the strongest right now since he has no control over himself. The whole point of the manga is acquiring heaven and earth(or yin and yang). Thats why you see so many people asking Souichirou why is he fighting for and still now he can't answer it as evidenced by what he told the current guy he's fighting, that's this indeciveness that has allowed him to lose control of himself. My guess is masataka, Aya or eventually Maya will bring him back to his senses.
    You hate being right? I don't see how you were right, I have those volumes on my laptop and I checked yesterday before I made my post. My point remains that when that statement was made by Masataka, he never gave any names. And that scene had all of the Jyukenbu members standing in the room, it didn't just zero in on Souichiro. I still say that with all of the attention Souichiro's gotten throughout the series, either Bob or Masataka would be better suited for becoming the True Warrior. But with Bob sorely lacking in any serious training, I doubt he would be able to rise to that point by the time the series prepares to wrap up. So Masataka is the next logical choice, one that I don't see taking anything away from Souichiro's story either.

    And about Aya's ability to see the future, if I recall Shin had that very same ability. But as he told Maya in the past arc, it's not exactly as cut and dry as it sounds, as there are many different possibilities of the future. So even though she has that ability, it's not really all that reliable. Besides, I don't recall there being a scene of her having a vision when she made that comment. That comment could've simply been due to her admiration and feelings toward him. After all, when it comes to Souichiro, she's the typical cheerleading female in anime.

    And yes, I know the Demon excorsist form is exclusive to the Nagi clan. It still doesn't mean that it doesn't require some type or form of training to master it. After all, how can you call yourself a master of something that you don't know how to fully utilize?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadou-kou View Post
    Hmmm....maybe. I really don't see as much potential in Masataka as I do in someone like Bob. Masataka has the experience and can use ki, but Bob is bigger and physically more powerful than him, yet has the flexibility and agility that someone smaller than himself should have. Masataka took three slashes to the back from Fu' Chien and probably some blows before he got knocked out, came to, tried to fight again, got scared, then came back and won, while Bob was cut in various vital spots yet discovered his Rhythm/Zanshin/Empty Mind ability and still fought back. Although it looked bad for him, he was still conscious and standing before Masataka came in. So, at least to me, I wouldn't say he has the most potential out of everyone. No doubt he's the voice of reason throughout the manga, but I think it would be best for him to stay that way than getting some title, like Bunshichi. Thinking about it, Masataka basically was neglected by his father for Mitsuomi's sake, they all have their different struggles, but everyone can either get through them or run away from them. Maya and Aya are growing up without parents cause their older brother decapitated them in craziness and Maya watched her own brother become a monster and kill himself to save everyone else, knowing that she could've stepped in and stopped him. Souichiro's family were hated all his life and his father basically sees him as a weapon as opposed to Dougen, who simply gave more attention to the older brother than the younger one, and literally doesn't care what happens to his son's soul. Bob has no family around, saw his girlfriend's raped body laying in a laundromat unconscious cause of him and Souichiro's actions at Toudou, yet couldn't do a thing about it (at the time). Plus, Maya hasn't really been training him, just giving him stuff that he already had while he could've simply went with Mitsuomi and become "the shaprest blade in the school".

    For Souichiro and his Demon Exorcist Form, it's not like it's a martial art, more like a spell put on oneself that continuously builds up energy within the user. No mortal being can actually have 100% access to it cause mortal humans will have their limits and eventually devour their spirit. No doubt he's the one with the most struggles as of now, basically living with two 'spirits' that are ready to take over his body at any time (the reason why he wants Masataka there to take him down just in case). Really don't see Masataka doing it alone though: Aya, Bob, and Maya will no doubt get some action with Souichiro as well.
    I never said Masataka was the toughest guy in the series. Bob has shown tons of potential, hence why I've been so amazed and a bit put off that not much has been done with his character. After all, he's been shown the least bit of attention out of all of the Jyukenbu members. But experience in itself can help a person overcome someone who is bigger or more agile than they are. Reminds me of a Japanese proverb that says "experience should fear the strength of youth".

    Even though Bob has such physical abilities going for him, Masataka has already shown that he's still capable of taking him. He's also shown that he's capable of more strength than it would seem. After all, he cracked the possessed Fu'Chien's eye-charms with one blow. Not to mention he's literally destroyed concrete walls/floors. As for his struggles, I wasn't listing them to say that his lessened the others, I was simply showing how he's gone through his own set of issues in the story. And I wouldn't say Dougen simply favors Mitsuomi more than Masataka, hell he practically pretended for most of the series like Masataka didn't even exist.

  2. #42
    Hadou-kou is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAngel84 View Post
    You hate being right? I don't see how you were right, I have those volumes on my laptop and I checked yesterday before I made my post. My point remains that when that statement was made by Masataka, he never gave any names. And that scene had all of the Jyukenbu members standing in the room, it didn't just zero in on Souichiro. I still say that with all of the attention Souichiro's gotten throughout the series, either Bob or Masataka would be better suited for becoming the True Warrior. But with Bob sorely lacking in any serious training, I doubt he would be able to rise to that point by the time the series prepares to wrap up. So Masataka is the next logical choice, one that I don't see taking anything away from Souichiro's story either.

    And about Aya's ability to see the future, if I recall Shin had that very same ability. But as he told Maya in the past arc, it's not exactly as cut and dry as it sounds, as there are many different possibilities of the future. So even though she has that ability, it's not really all that reliable. Besides, I don't recall there being a scene of her having a vision when she made that comment. That comment could've simply been due to her admiration and feelings toward him. After all, when it comes to Souichiro, she's the typical cheerleading female in anime.

    And yes, I know the Demon excorsist form is exclusive to the Nagi clan. It still doesn't mean that it doesn't require some type or form of training to master it. After all, how can you call yourself a master of something that you don't know how to fully utilize?



    I never said Masataka was the toughest guy in the series. Bob has shown tons of potential, hence why I've been so amazed and a bit put off that not much has been done with his character. After all, he's been shown the least bit of attention out of all of the Jyukenbu members. But experience in itself can help a person overcome someone who is bigger or more agile than they are. Reminds me of a Japanese proverb that says "experience should fear the strength of youth".

    Even though Bob has such physical abilities going for him, Masataka has already shown that he's still capable of taking him. He's also shown that he's capable of more strength than it would seem. After all, he cracked the possessed Fu'Chien's eye-charms with one blow. Not to mention he's literally destroyed concrete walls/floors. As for his struggles, I wasn't listing them to say that his lessened the others, I was simply showing how he's gone through his own set of issues in the story. And I wouldn't say Dougen simply favors Mitsuomi more than Masataka, hell he practically pretended for most of the series like Masataka didn't even exist.
    Masataka has shown to be stronger than he appeared, but he's still can't throw a punch or kick as strong as Bob without building up ki. Let's say Bob and Masataka had the bodies they have now, same experiences, and both knew how to control ki. Which one do you think could hit harder? Mitsuomi has the strongest Tanshinkou in the series because his body can accumulate more ki with his bigger body than Souichiro and Maya. Maya already said he was physically stronger than anyone else in the Jyuken Club and Mitsuomi already said that he doesn't need any physical training, so I guess he got screwed in choosing sides. That's why I say Bob has the greatest potential. The True Warrior, as far as description goes is supposed to be the strongest martial artist and able to utilize the powers of the red and white feathers. That could be literally or figuratively. If it's figuratively, then it can be just about anyone. Literally, there's no one else except Souichiro.

    Never said Dougen outright favored Mitsuomi over Masataka, I said he simply put more attention on Mitsuomi because he believed Mitsuomi could become what he believed the True Warrior was.

    I can see both yours and Dollarbill's points. Masataka said that the Strongest people ever in the Jyuken Club arrived at that moment, but he never said that it had to be Souichiro. However, calling himself the strongest person back then wouldn't sound as modest as his character has shown to be. He never did anything significant in Toudou besides join Maya's team, but Bunshichi, Bob, and Souichiro had to basically tell him to stop hiding and waiting, and just do what you have to do before it's too late to change fate. they said that he would break the gears of fate, but do you really think that simply breaking the gear of fate is going to save the day and end the story right there? Something would have to come after that, like a clock, one gear missing and the whole clock falls apart. In other words, chaos. Someone has to be there to reconstruct those gears for a better future, wouldn't you think?

  3. #43
    BlackAngel84 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadou-kou View Post
    Masataka has shown to be stronger than he appeared, but he's still can't throw a punch or kick as strong as Bob without building up ki. Let's say Bob and Masataka had the bodies they have now, same experiences, and both knew how to control ki. Which one do you think could hit harder? Mitsuomi has the strongest Tanshinkou in the series because his body can accumulate more ki with his bigger body than Souichiro and Maya. Maya already said he was physically stronger than anyone else in the Jyuken Club and Mitsuomi already said that he doesn't need any physical training, so I guess he got screwed in choosing sides. That's why I say Bob has the greatest potential. The True Warrior, as far as description goes is supposed to be the strongest martial artist and able to utilize the powers of the red and white feathers. That could be literally or figuratively. If it's figuratively, then it can be just about anyone. Literally, there's no one else except Souichiro.

    Never said Dougen outright favored Mitsuomi over Masataka, I said he simply put more attention on Mitsuomi because he believed Mitsuomi could become what he believed the True Warrior was.

    I can see both yours and Dollarbill's points. Masataka said that the Strongest people ever in the Jyuken Club arrived at that moment, but he never said that it had to be Souichiro. However, calling himself the strongest person back then wouldn't sound as modest as his character has shown to be. He never did anything significant in Toudou besides join Maya's team, but Bunshichi, Bob, and Souichiro had to basically tell him to stop hiding and waiting, and just do what you have to do before it's too late to change fate. they said that he would break the gears of fate, but do you really think that simply breaking the gear of fate is going to save the day and end the story right there? Something would have to come after that, like a clock, one gear missing and the whole clock falls apart. In other words, chaos. Someone has to be there to reconstruct those gears for a better future, wouldn't you think?
    Why would there be a need to reconstruct the gears of fate? The whole point of destroying them, and thus freeing all of the people trapped inside of it, is to allow them to be able to choose their own destiny. That appears to be what Masataka was referring to in this previous chapter when he was addressing Mitsuomi. He was stating that he didn't believe human ability couldn't be strong enough to affect fate. In other words, Masataka seems to want everyone to be able to lead their own lives, instead following some predestined plan set by ambitious, but long dead family members.

    And as far as him not doing anything significant at Toudou, you have to keep in mind he's only been with the Jyukenbu for what, a year at the most. The majority of that time was probably getting himself prepared for what was to come when the new members (Aya, etc.) arrived. In other words, he didn't act because there wasn't a need yet for him to act. Who's to say what he was doing prior to Souichiro and Bob's joining the group. He's most likely the one person Maya relied on the most to help keep the group from being wiped out in the first place.

  4. #44
    Hadou-kou is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAngel84 View Post
    Why would there be a need to reconstruct the gears of fate? The whole point of destroying them, and thus freeing all of the people trapped inside of it, is to allow them to be able to choose their own destiny. That appears to be what Masataka was referring to in this previous chapter when he was addressing Mitsuomi. He was stating that he didn't believe human ability couldn't be strong enough to affect fate. In other words, Masataka seems to want everyone to be able to lead their own lives, instead following some predestined plan set by ambitious, but long dead family members.

    And as far as him not doing anything significant at Toudou, you have to keep in mind he's only been with the Jyukenbu for what, a year at the most. The majority of that time was probably getting himself prepared for what was to come when the new members (Aya, etc.) arrived. In other words, he didn't act because there wasn't a need yet for him to act. Who's to say what he was doing prior to Souichiro and Bob's joining the group. He's most likely the one person Maya relied on the most to help keep the group from being wiped out in the first place.
    Like my example, with a gear missing, the clock can't move and it would just stop. Therefore, someone would have to reconstructure the gears like no one else has been able to before it just goes into chaos. With the gear as it is now, it leads to death. Without a gear whatsoever, everything would fall apart, not just those within. Which is the reason why I was thinking Maya has a much bigger part to this gear destroying thing than Masataka. They also made a reference to fate being shackles in 109. Reiki told Aya that the one who would wield the blade would be the one to cut the shackles of fate. Masataka isn't a weapon user, so if he were to use Reiki, he wouldn't be able to use it to it's full potential.

    As for not doing anything in the last two years, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean that he would have done something without Bunshichi, Bob, and Souichiro giving him pep talks to start doing something and make a change. Everything you said is true about Maya most likely relying on him for last years tournament, hell we don't even know who the other two members of the group was back then (As they need five members to compete in the tournament). However, characters like Bunshichi, Shin, Souichiro, and Bob knew what they had to do. If his strength relied on his morals, then he should've done something but didn't until now.

  5. #45
    BlackAngel84 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadou-kou View Post
    Like my example, with a gear missing, the clock can't move and it would just stop. Therefore, someone would have to reconstructure the gears like no one else has been able to before it just goes into chaos. With the gear as it is now, it leads to death. Without a gear whatsoever, everything would fall apart, not just those within. Which is the reason why I was thinking Maya has a much bigger part to this gear destroying thing than Masataka. They also made a reference to fate being shackles in 109. Reiki told Aya that the one who would wield the blade would be the one to cut the shackles of fate. Masataka isn't a weapon user, so if he were to use Reiki, he wouldn't be able to use it to it's full potential.

    As for not doing anything in the last two years, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean that he would have done something without Bunshichi, Bob, and Souichiro giving him pep talks to start doing something and make a change. Everything you said is true about Maya most likely relying on him for last years tournament, hell we don't even know who the other two members of the group was back then (As they need five members to compete in the tournament). However, characters like Bunshichi, Shin, Souichiro, and Bob knew what they had to do. If his strength relied on his morals, then he should've done something but didn't until now.
    But there's still no justifiable reason for reconstructing something that has already been proven dysfunctional in the first place. Your analogy with the clock makes sense in theory, but it still doesn't make sense to rebuild something that has caused nothing but heartache from the beginning. It would make more sense to destroy the wheel completely, thus allowing everyone to make their own ways in life, rather than rebuilding another fate-driven wheel. Which is what Masataka, and Souichiro, are hoping to accomplish.

    That aside, your theory about Aya is misplaced. Even if she is able to cut the shackles of fate, she is still bound within the wheel, making it highly improbable that she will be the one to do it. And as far as pep talks, I don't understand how Bob and Souichiro have inspired Masataka to do anything. Bunshichi gave him helpful words of advice, yes, but they were mainly for him to not involve himself with the whole wheel of fate thing, being that he was not originally involved. He also gave advice to Souichiro and Bob as well. Bob and Souichiro haven't even been in the school for a year, so I don't see how either of them could have inspired Masataka to "do something" as you put it.

    Masataka has been in school longer, and thus has been around this whole wheel of fate situation longer. Bob isn't directly involved in it at all, other than through his friendship with Nagi, and Souichiro didn't even have knowledge of his heritage until just a while ago. If you go back and look at the series, Masataka has also been the one encouraging Bob to stay with the group as well as training him, not to mention he was encouraging Souichiro to protect both Aya and Maya earlier on in the story. As well as the message he and Bob left on the top of that car when Souichiro was in the hospital. One little dinner comment by Souichiro doesn't equate to all of the advice and helpful words Masataka has given both he and Bob.

    The fact is that Masataka HAS been contributing for a while now, by helping Maya keep the Jyukenbu alive and opposing Mitsuomi's plan to start a war. Something that you have already agreed with, and that you can't put Souichiro in the same category as Bunshichi and Shin about knowing what he needed to do, being that it practically had to be beaten into him before he even acknowledged it.

  6. #46
    Hadou-kou is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAngel84 View Post
    But there's still no justifiable reason for reconstructing something that has already been proven dysfunctional in the first place. Your analogy with the clock makes sense in theory, but it still doesn't make sense to rebuild something that has caused nothing but heartache from the beginning. It would make more sense to destroy the wheel completely, thus allowing everyone to make their own ways in life, rather than rebuilding another fate-driven wheel. Which is what Masataka, and Souichiro, are hoping to accomplish.

    That aside, your theory about Aya is misplaced. Even if she is able to cut the shackles of fate, she is still bound within the wheel, making it highly improbable that she will be the one to do it. And as far as pep talks, I don't understand how Bob and Souichiro have inspired Masataka to do anything. Bunshichi gave him helpful words of advice, yes, but they were mainly for him to not involve himself with the whole wheel of fate thing, being that he was not originally involved. He also gave advice to Souichiro and Bob as well. Bob and Souichiro haven't even been in the school for a year, so I don't see how either of them could have inspired Masataka to "do something" as you put it.

    Masataka has been in school longer, and thus has been around this whole wheel of fate situation longer. Bob isn't directly involved in it at all, other than through his friendship with Nagi, and Souichiro didn't even have knowledge of his heritage until just a while ago. If you go back and look at the series, Masataka has also been the one encouraging Bob to stay with the group as well as training him, not to mention he was encouraging Souichiro to protect both Aya and Maya earlier on in the story. As well as the message he and Bob left on the top of that car when Souichiro was in the hospital. One little dinner comment by Souichiro doesn't equate to all of the advice and helpful words Masataka has given both he and Bob.

    The fact is that Masataka HAS been contributing for a while now, by helping Maya keep the Jyukenbu alive and opposing Mitsuomi's plan to start a war. Something that you have already agreed with, and that you can't put Souichiro in the same category as Bunshichi and Shin about knowing what he needed to do, being that it practically had to be beaten into him before he even acknowledged it.
    Okay, there might be no reason for them to recreate a gear, but then what the point of choosing and making fate without a gear unto which they follow? but the thing about Aya isn't totally misplaced. Right now, everything that has been said about Masataka are just assumptions, just as Aya has that cube puzzle with different cubes making up the whole are just assumptions. Given that she can see at least one part of the future, the missing piece in all of her future seeing has been Souichiro. They already shown back in 115 that Masataka was a part of Kabane's puzzle as well. Kabane already knows the parts each and everyone plays, that's why he was able to finish his puzzle.

    True, Souichiro had to be beaten before he told Masataka to break the wheel of fate, but he still knows what part he has in all of this himself. Masataka's contribution can also be said about everyone making their contributions to the Jyukenbu: Bunshichi, Kurei, even Mitsuomi to an extent. With the inspiration and pep talks, yeah, Masataka did get advice from those two as well. It might not look important when reading it because people don't take those two seriously, but it is. I'm not denying that he hasn't gave Souichiro and Bob pep talks as well, but you can't deny that they basically put him to where he is right now.

  7. #47
    xxDoLLarBiLLxx is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadou-kou View Post
    Okay, there might be no reason for them to recreate a gear, but then what the point of choosing and making fate without a gear unto which they follow? but the thing about Aya isn't totally misplaced. Right now, everything that has been said about Masataka are just assumptions, just as Aya has that cube puzzle with different cubes making up the whole are just assumptions. Given that she can see at least one part of the future, the missing piece in all of her future seeing has been Souichiro. They already shown back in 115 that Masataka was a part of Kabane's puzzle as well. Kabane already knows the parts each and everyone plays, that's why he was able to finish his puzzle.

    True, Souichiro had to be beaten before he told Masataka to break the wheel of fate, but he still knows what part he has in all of this himself. Masataka's contribution can also be said about everyone making their contributions to the Jyukenbu: Bunshichi, Kurei, even Mitsuomi to an extent. With the inspiration and pep talks, yeah, Masataka did get advice from those two as well. It might not look important when reading it because people don't take those two seriously, but it is. I'm not denying that he hasn't gave Souichiro and Bob pep talks as well, but you can't deny that they basically put him to where he is right now.
    You right about not needing a gear since the resonance effect created by all the red feathers that will gather at the school create the same effect.

    But you are wrong about Souichirou knowing what he has to do. In fact he doesn't or hasn't made a decision on what to do yet. That's why you see him saying all the time that he's content on being a soldier while that's just a cover for him not willing to make a decision or maybe he just hasn't found out what he wants to do. The whole manga has been about his indeciveness which caused him to lose himself a few times. His fights with Ishyumi, Mataza, and now Kabane have all been example of that.


    @Blackangel
    Masataka never knew what was going on since Maya and his brother chose to keep him out of things. As for Souichirou, He's the key to all of this as he has been at the center of this thing. Even though he didnt know about it, his family(nagi) is the leader of the 12 families as was evidenced by his ancestor in that flashback. His ancestor is the one who devised the plan for the true warrior.

  8. #48
    tenryuken is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    @ DollarBill
    The Nagi family isn't the head of the 12 Founding Families, it is the Takayanagi who's in charge even in the Sebgoku Arc. They divided in White and Red Feathers.
    1:Kago(Red).
    2:Kabuto(White).
    3:Nagi(Red).
    4:I think Wani(White) but I am not sure.
    5:Natsume(Red).

  9. #49
    xxDoLLarBiLLxx is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenryuken View Post
    @ DollarBill
    The Nagi family isn't the head of the 12 Founding Families, it is the Takayanagi who's in charge even in the Sebgoku Arc. They divided in White and Red Feathers.
    1:Kago(Red).
    2:Kabuto(White).
    3:Nagi(Red).
    4:I think Wani(White) but I am not sure.
    5:Natsume(Red).
    Look, The 12 families serve the Takayanagi family. the Nagi Family is the junior head of the 12 founding families and head of the red feathers and they have the highest status among the 12 families.

    example: u read bleach right? they are 13 captains who take orders from the 46 chambers right?? its like the Nagi Family, Genryusai leader of the 13 captains and the Takayanagi is 46 chambers who give orders out to Genryusai.

  10. #50
    tenryuken is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    I don't think so because in the Sengoku Arc they said that the Nagi family is above of the Natsume, Kabane and Shyouyou and that Aya should treat the lil'Nagi wiht more respect but when they were talking about Souhaku they that he is the man on top of the Red Feathers so it means that the Kago family is above the Nagi family. Even after the war when the 12 Founding Families were all in the same room with the emperor(Takayanagi), it seems pretty evident that Souhaku was in charge.

 

 
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