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  • Suzuka

    173 39.77%
  • Ichigo 100%

    262 60.23%
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  1. #31
    d.A. is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    It's pretty off-topic when a Suzuka vs. Ichigo 100% turns into Love Hina vs. Ichigo 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A.
    While Love Hina isn't totally a piece of crap, if you talk plot, character development, logic, and anything else that involves thinking past the 5th grade level then it falls short. Very short. Story-wise Love Hina has no merits other than comedy.
    The same can easily be said of Ichigo. In fact, it falls harder because the author herself admitted to not having any sense of plot direction.
    Hardly. Mizuki Kawashita admitted she didn't have a sense of direction. True. It explains the noticeable jump from Toujo to Nishino after Jr. High in Ichigo 100%, but that doesn't take away from the incredible character development in Ichigo 100%. J.D. Salinger also admitted he had no direct plot when he wrote Catcher in the Rye, yet it is one of the most influential novels in the 20th century. Ichigo 100%, like Catcher in the Rye, relies on justified character development rather than a strong distinct plot. Ichigo 100% involves many different aspects of higher thinking. A good example is the symbolism and juxtaposition within the foil of Toujo and Nishino as the two archetypes of ideal women in Japan. I can't give such examples for LH which only adequately expressed the fact that college makes your life better (Pssh. I read that on the internet a while ago. And since it was on the internet it has to be true.) and showed methods on how to manage a harem (Which is common knowledge that could be used by anyone these days since harems of girls can now be bought and sold for affordable prices off e-bay.) Definitely higher thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A.
    if Ichigo 100% is forgettable comedy then Love Hina is that much worse.
    LH actually has a plot. That's the difference. Ichigo was nothing but random stuff until the editors got fed up and forced Kawashita to get her act together. By the time she did it was too late and she stopped caring, hence the rushed ending.
    Ichigo 100% lacks a strong distinct plot that exists throughout the story. (Suzuka has that same problem.) In that capacity LH does beat out Ichigo 100%, however it's not blatantly random as you imply. Ichigo 100% builds on its character development to create meaningful experiences for the characters which allow the story to continue and leads up to the 'rushed' ending, all using one distinct plot driver - Manaka's story-wide pursuit of a dream. It's a fact that it's rather weak and it doesn't help that the synopsis used in for the series is used only to real in fan service seekers. Due to me actually liking the ending, my opinion of it will be probably be nothing short of the equivalent of a half pound pile of horse turd to you. Nonetheless, Ichigo 100%'s ending included much deeper sentiments and more ambivalent meanings than the stereotypical happy ending that was Love Hina. If Kawashita really did not care about Ichigo 100%, I would think a semi-open ending ala Lilim Kiss would be used rather than an allegorical ending that turned off most of the fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A.
    Plot and character depth are different things altogether
    Not entirely, as character depth is often indicative of story progression (unless the author is obviously milking the cow, like in School Rumble's case). Despite all the crazy situations thrown at him, Keitaro actually matures throughout the course of LH. Manaka was such a shallow character that he could've been a total failure at the end and it still would've been plausible. He only got the happy end that he did so that it would meet Jump's motto of "Friendship, Hard Work, and Victory".
    Despite all the crazy situations thrown at him, Manaka actually matures throughout the course of Ichigo 100%. Keitaro was such a shallow character that he could've been a total failure at the end and it still would've been plausible.

    Switching around the names and your statements still are valid. Hardly an argument for LH to be better than Ichigo 100%. Honestly you can interchange both characters and the difference wouldn't be that great. Manaka like Keitaro was a total failure. Both evolved. Unrealistically, but evolve they did. You acknowledge Keitaro yet undermine Manaka despite both being of the same mold. They both really are horrid male leads.

    While character development does indicate story progression, they are still seperate categories. A character developing does not equate a plot. Love Hina has the better plot and plot drivers of the two by a close margin,but both stories stand in the lower ranking of that category as far as any manga goes. However when concerning character development, Ichigo 100% is clearly head and shoulders above Love hina in all aspects - realism, logic, depth, and unpredictibility. Heck, not many manga can stand even with the character development found in Ichigo 100%. Keitaro matures, yes. But it's rather bland and spontaneously unreal in comparison to the slow and staggered development of Manaka's excuse for a lead character. Bring in the development of Toujo, Satsuki and Nishino and Love Hina cannot fathom matching it in that department. Shinobu, Motoko, and Naru do develop but not to the extent of complexity of the females in Ichigo 100%. I would even argue that the most of the LH females are underdeveloped to an extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    That's also why even Misuzu's side story is better. It's the story Ichigo tried to tell, only with a better lead and without all the unnecessary baggage.
    I agree with you that Misuzu's side story was a high point in Ichigo 100%, but it's still a side story that builds on the characters defined in the story. And unlike Love Hina, Ichigo 100% emphasizes supporting character development during its side stories rather than using it as a ploy to include more comedy. Love Hina is more of a 'forgettable comedy' than Ichigo 100%.
    Last edited by d.A.; 09-04-2006 at 02:18 PM.

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  2. #32
    Kenichikun is offline Member Newbie
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    suzuka....
    cuz i really hate manaka
    he deserves do die (even more than the dumbass yamato)
    Originally Posted by Halohead
    Suzuka: Causing impotency to young naive teenage boys all around the world.

  3. #33
    Freeter is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.A.
    It's pretty off-topic when a Suzuka vs. Ichigo 100% turns into Love Hina vs. Ichigo 100%.
    It's completely off-topic. But no matter...

    J.D. Salinger also admitted he had no direct plot when he wrote Catcher in the Rye, yet it is one of the most influential novels in the 20th century. Ichigo 100%, like Catcher in the Rye, relies on justified character development rather than a strong distinct plot.
    Manaka has absolutely nothing on Holden Caulfield.

    Ichigo 100% involves many different aspects of higher thinking. A good example is the symbolism and juxtaposition within the foil of Toujo and Nishino as the two archetypes of ideal women in Japan.
    One is shy, the other is straightforward. Simple as that. You can probably stretch that to a ten-page paper, but in the end that's all it boils down to.

    I can't give such examples for LH which only adequately expressed the fact that college makes your life better (Pssh. I read that on the internet a while ago. And since it was on the internet it has to be true.)
    Of course not, since Akamatsu was concerned with telling a good story than exploring psychological issues. Same with Kawashita, only she failed.

    I also tried to read more into the story than I should've, but the rushed ending and her comments made all of that futile.

    and showed methods on how to manage a harem (Which is common knowledge that could be used by anyone these days since harems of girls can now be bought and sold for affordable prices off e-bay.) Definitely higher thinking
    If it was common knowledge, why didn't Manaka practice it? Especially since his situation was far more favorable than Keitaro's with all those girls practically throwing themselves at him.

    it's not blatantly random as you imply.
    Charlie's Angels, 3 Days, Date x 4, inclusion of Chinami and Kozue (LH also had Kanako, but that was quickly absolved), Yui's Hero (worthless due to her exclusion at the end), Satsuki's bedroom tease, etc.

    The story was just broken. Manaka's indecisiveness didn't help either.

    Ichigo 100% builds on its character development to create meaningful experiences for the characters
    There was barely any character development to begin with. The only one who had any real meaningful experiences was Nishino, and even those were in vain as Manaka only acknowledged her feelings through desperation (then he read Toujou's novel and discovered what a dumbass he was for doing so).

    which allow the story to continue and leads up to the 'rushed' ending, all using one distinct plot driver - Manaka's story-wide pursuit of a dream
    He was pursuing a dream? Really? I totally missed the boat on that one. All I saw him do was get into awkward situations with various girls and waste time hanging out with friends.

    Ichigo 100%'s ending included much deeper sentiments and more ambivalent meanings than the stereotypical happy ending that was Love Hina.
    How is it ambivalent when the author comes back and says "and they all lived happily ever after"?

    If Kawashita really did not care about Ichigo 100%, I would think a semi-open ending ala Lilim Kiss would be used rather than an allegorical ending that turned off most of the fans
    If Kawashita really cared about Ichigo, she would've devised an ending that wouldn't need explanation and would satisfy the fans. After 19 volumes of mostly fluff, they certainly deserve one.

    Despite all the crazy situations thrown at him, Manaka actually matures throughout the course of Ichigo 100%. Keitaro was such a shallow character that he could've been a total failure at the end and it still would've been plausible.

    Switching around the names and your statements still are valid.
    Completely false. The Keitaro in the latter half of LH was a far cry from the spineless wimp in the beginning. Manaka, on the other hand, remained an inept twit for the entire thing until he was forced to change at the very end, since everyone else was moving on.

    You acknowledge Keitaro yet undermine Manaka despite both being of the same mold. They both really are horrid male leads.
    I acknowledge Keitaro because he actually took steps to achieving his goals. He didn't sit on his ass and remain passive like Manaka did.

    I agree with you that Misuzu's side story was a high point in Ichigo 100%
    I said it was better than the entirety of Ichigo itself. If you still feel inclined to agree, then do so.

    Ichigo 100% emphasizes supporting character development during its side stories rather than using it as a ploy to include more comedy.
    Bra incident, Kozue and Migishima, any Satsuki confrontation, Misuzu cosplay...you sure about that?

    Love Hina is more of a 'forgettable comedy' than Ichigo 100%.
    Hardly.

  4. #34
    d.A. is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Manaka has absolutely nothing on Holden Caulfield.
    Never said he did. Holden will forever be one of the greatest characters in literature. I would assume the apocalypse wouldn't be too far off if Manaka was ever able to compare with Holden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    One is shy, the other is straightforward. Simple as that. You can probably stretch that to a ten-page paper, but in the end that's all it boils down to.
    Hence why you miss the greatness of the ending. Using that logic Holden's travels could be boiled down to him wandering places on the east coast. You know Catcher in the Rye is more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Of course not, since Akamatsu was concerned with telling a good story than exploring psychological issues. Same with Kawashita, only she failed.
    Hardly. Akamatsu, like Kawashita in the beginning of Ichigo 100% was concerned on depicting a story of a harem. The difference lies in the fact that Kawashita explored the possibility of more than one serious relationship. This is where the 'psychological issues' stem from. You as a reader can understand Toujo, you as a reader can understand Nishino, along with some of the side characters if you delve deep enough. I can't say the same for LH. Ichigo 100%'s character's opinions and actions are far more backed up and understandable than Love Hina's, all due from your what you call 'psychological issues.' I call it character depth. LH is underdeveloped by definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    If it was common knowledge, why didn't Manaka practice it? Especially since his situation was far more favorable than Keitaro's with all those girls practically throwing themselves at him.
    I say common in an attempt at sarcasm.

    Why didn't he use it? Because like stated before, Manaka is a terrible excuse for a lead character. I still the say the same for Keitaro.

    Keitaro had more opportunities and more girls to choose from.

    Other than Satsuki and Kozue, the female cast of Ichigo 100% hardly threw themselves on him without a steady relationship. Compared to Kitsune, Shinobu, Motoko, Suu, Kanako, of LH who were willing despite Naru already having obvious control of Keitaro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Charlie's Angels, 3 Days, Date x 4, inclusion of Chinami and Kozue (LH also had Kanako, but that was quickly absolved), Yui's Hero (worthless due to her exclusion at the end), Satsuki's bedroom tease, etc.

    The story was just broken. Manaka's indecisiveness didn't help either.
    For the most part at least. Manaka's indecisiveness and his lack of motivation are indeed his main downfalls as a main lead. However, fan service isn't randomness. Most situations of fan service did develop the characters further.



    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    There was barely any character development to begin with. The only one who had any real meaningful experiences was Nishino, and even those were in vain as Manaka only acknowledged her feelings through desperation (then he read Toujou's novel and discovered what a dumbass he was for doing so).
    So Toujo's growth through her career and personality, Manaka finally finding his calling and finally taking initiative, Kozue passing her boy obstacle and making friends, Chinami finding her calling and a boyfriend, along with many others suddenly disappeared from the story? No. Most of Ichigo 100%'s characters grew. Not just slightly either.



    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    He was pursuing a dream? Really? I totally missed the boat on that one. All I saw him do was get into awkward situations with various girls and waste time hanging out with friends.
    Sure the fluff masked it but a reason behind most of those encounters is his dream.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    How is it ambivalent when the author comes back and says "and they all lived happily ever after"?
    Because the movie script from Toujo's novel has yet to play out, the Nishino x Manaka's ending is completely open, Toujo's epilogue relationship with Manaka is still unsolved. Happily ever after doesn't equate closure. The ending is still ambivalent since we have no clue how much happiness they recieved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    If Kawashita really cared about Ichigo, she would've devised an ending that wouldn't need explanation and would satisfy the fans. After 19 volumes of mostly fluff, they certainly deserve one.
    Cause a perfect ending where all the fans will be satisfied and happily talk afterward exists and can easily be put unto paper. I truly wish that was the case. The lack of a central plot prevents that from happening. When your fan base is split down the line between the two lead females, you can't satisfy everyone while sticking to one ending. Love Hina doesn't hold that problem since from Volume 10 on it was clear who Keitaro had chosen. It left 9 volumes to develop the relationship of the two, and even in those 9 volumes, the majority of it was spent on forgettable comedy. Given that Ichigo 100%'s ending was finished in four volumes, those four volumes were pure drama and did not need any comedy to drive it forward. The last four volumes are hardly what I would call fluff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Completely false. The Keitaro in the latter half of LH was a far cry from the spineless wimp in the beginning. Manaka, on the other hand, remained an inept twit for the entire thing until he was forced to change at the very end, since everyone else was moving on.
    I disagree. It's not the fact that Keitaro wasn’t a spineless wimp but the fact that he changed from that spineless wimp to his Seta-fied self in a matter of 1 Volume in which he appeared in no more than 16 pages. Manaka's inept twit changed through the course of 5 volumes that were clear cut and complex. Keitaro could've dropped out of Toudai and the plot of Love Hina would still be plausible. Hell, Akamatsu could have done that in the 16 pages and it would still be as plausible and much more believable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    I acknowledge Keitaro because he actually took steps to achieving his goals. He didn't sit on his ass and remain passive like Manaka did.
    Keitaro was coerced by the females of the story. Without that excess motivation he would be on his ass also. Manaka decided on a career with the help of Toujo's novel, and Nishino's goals. Those lead to the steps he took to seek his dream. It depicts Manaka's hard work through construction which is more than what Love Hina showed. Studying with a pretty girl is hardly hard work in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    I said it was better than the entirety of Ichigo itself. If you still feel inclined to agree, then do so.
    Hell no. Misuzu's side story only outlined another side of Manaka. By itself, it is just another short undeveloped one shot. I'd rather have excess baggage then no baggage at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Bra incident, Kozue and Migishima, any Satsuki confrontation, Misuzu cosplay...you sure about that?
    Did Motoko have a character change? Her reasons changed her personality didn't. Did Suu? No. Did Shinobu? Still the same personality. Did Kitsune? Nope. Now look at the other end of the spectrum. Kozue drastically changed, Satsuki drastically changed, Migishima changed, Misuzu remained the same during the main story but it lead to her drastic change in the epilogue. Yes I'm sure about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    Hardly.
    It's an opinion, but I have yet to see Love Hina's comedy being backed up by depth and complexity.

    I stand by my original statement that Love Hina is more of a 'forgettable comedy' than Ichigo 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter
    I also tried to read more into the story than I should've, but the rushed ending and her comments made all of that futile.
    Futile to you, but there is a significant portion of fans that did enjoy that ending because they did delve in-between the lines of the story.
    Last edited by d.A.; 09-04-2006 at 05:07 PM.

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  5. #35
    VNS_None_ is offline Member Newbie
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    lol @ "Ichigo vs LoveHina"

    so, the Result of "Suzuka vs Ichigo" has been clear , rite?

    Ok, Ichigo and LoveHina are equal in my ranking (in the manner of comparing Maradona and BeckenBauer). I's is one step behind, and Suzuka is far from them.

    *start the Suzuka-vs-I's war*
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  6. #36
    rymachelin is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    i think the same as d.a. ichigo 100% is an good story, based on the caracters basically and done with pure spirit, the characters have's got their own kind of be and evolves whitout loss any detail, look at nishino tsukasa and toujou aya in her evolve, even satsuki kitaooji has a evolution in her feelings and she not finish very well at the history but aniway all the feelings of the characters are purely and clearly, you can see them very easly, not like in Love hina, where i think the girls take much more scene than the main character. Manaka evolves in the manga and becomes day to day in a man, every year you can see a clearly evolution of it (read 1 or 2 chapters in his 15, 16, and 17 years and you will see it easly).
    i think ichigo 100% is not a very great manga, i read that and for me is a very good manga, i think SAIKANO is the BEST romance manga, for me, is the Definitively story of love, but it is good, a very good combination of romance, comedy, depth feelings and "limit Situations" :P

    the ending was ok, think about it, Toujou is more like a very good friend to manaka, the two are soo shy to even kiss, when obviusly them loves too much. for that reason and the fact of the future+dreams of toujou obviusly wasn't parallel to be with manaka, she put her dreams first, not a simple romance who nobody know how will end, because manaka too is in love with nishino (btw nishino is a good option in a variety of cases, Toujou is special only for her dreams and manaka dreams) soo toujou decides to leave manaka and follow her own way and life, something terrible to manaka because nishino to leaves to france and (at that moment) she never will back to manaka's side.
    take at considering Satsuki is behind manaka all the time, she is a very tragic character, bad ending for her i think, the only one who all the time it had true and sure feelings, love to manaka; but her heart is broken at the end.
    in the end you will discover a nishino who promises to get back with manaka, was predictable that she will be in love with him even if she goes, but you dont know if she will back with manaka. 4 years later all the characters got (more good or not, an ending) and manaka becomes a real man and get back with his true love. for me, that is a good manga, very good drawn and a good quota of suspense.

    Ichigo 100% is mi election, suzuka is good i dont have read it completely because i loss some chapter at middle of the manga, but i think Ichigo 100% is a good choice for all
    Last edited by rymachelin; 09-05-2006 at 04:07 PM.

  7. #37
    nani is offline Member Newbie
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    Welll of course were talkin bout manga cuz ichigo anime sucked horribly
    I rlly liked the endin to ichigo although it rlly is more of a comedy than suzuka was.
    Suzuka was like ehhhh i dnno im not current since i stopped readin at around c hapter 100 or so
    I thought maybe they shoulda just left it off where they eneded it in teh anime like at 72 or somethin that was a nice endin.....
    With wut i no of suzuka i would say that ichigo is better just bcuz it had a good ending in my opinion and very few ever have good endings..

  8. #38
    echoblaze is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    love hina the anime also sucked horribly, lol.

    @rymachelin

    is saikano a harem manga ? if not, then it's not really comparing apples with apples.

    for me, negima > love hina/suzuka > ichigo 100%. just my opinion. i just got really bored of ichigo 100% after a while.

  9. #39
    rymachelin is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze
    love hina the anime also sucked horribly, lol.

    @rymachelin

    is saikano a harem manga ? if not, then it's not really comparing apples with apples.

    for me, negima > love hina/suzuka > ichigo 100%. just my opinion. i just got really bored of ichigo 100% after a while.
    i mean love histories, both saikano (with differences) are love histories with deep sentimentalism, in that case i mean saikano is the best love history for me, i'm not comparing them in any case, i'm only saying that saikano is the best love story and Ichigo 100% is a good love story too

  10. #40
    undead_assault is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    hmmm, i prefer Suzuka....

    in Ichigo, all the bitches are just simply fall in love to one person

    in Suzuka, there aren't extreme love feeling (except Yui), although the lead female character is better in Ichigo

    in Suzuka, Suzuka herself is more like a bitch, all she can do are just angry, slap, so on.....

    then Nishino = Suzuka
    Toujo = Honoka
    Miki = Satsuki....

    hmmm, they are quite look alike.....
    The world without me is like human without brain.....
    You'll Regret Approaching Me.....
    Taking high density of killing intention...

 

 
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