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  1. #11
    NeoSapien is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
    The problem with doing something for someone without their knowledge is that you don't always know if they want it or not. While Harima seems to be rushing towards a solution, I'd be very surprised if he fully understands the problem.
    He almost certainly doesn't know about Karasuma's condition, which is the most important factor, but that isn't something which Harima can really be blamed for.
    Even we, the audience, lack a full understanding of the situation. Is Tenma crying because Karasuma rejected her without a reason? Or is she crying because he told her about his condition?

    There's a certain arrogance to Harima's actions, as Karasuma rightly points out. Harima's frustration comes from the fact that he believes that he loves Tenma more than Karasuma does. But how can Harima call Karasuma's feelings "half-assed" when he doesn't even understand the nature of Tenma and Karasuma's relationship to begin with?
    Well, there was the time that Karasuma couldn't choose between Tenma and instant curry and then told Harima to go after her for him because there was a sale on curry at a nearby restaurant... Karasuma loves curry as much or more than Tenma. That's at least three-quarters-assed if not half-assed.

    More importantly, from Harima's perspective Karasuma is just jerking Tenma around. Karasuma told Harima that he would ask her to be his girlfriend after Harima urged him to seize love and manga, and now Karasuma has rejected Tenma? It's very bizarre behavior and even more bizarre to Harima who knows less than we do.
    For example, there's a fairly important moment at the end of Ch. 119 where Karasuma explains that although he feels strong emotions on the inside, he is physically unable to show them. Tenma understands him in spite of this, which is why she is able to love him when so many others simply dismiss him as weird.
    This isn't a problem for Harima. He gets along great with Karasuma when the issue of Tenma isn't between them. What bothers him is Karasuma's treatment of Tenma (choosing curry over her, mysteriously rejecting her, etc.)
    And the very biggest revelation came in Ch. 257, where Karasuma revealed that he knew about Tenma's feelings and felt the same way - and yet at the same time knew that his condition made it impossible. Not only that, but it implies that Karasuma put off having surgery for a whole year, just for Tenma's sake. Unlike Harima, Karasuma's feelings are not possessive in the slightest - his desire to stay is driven by his need to see Tenma a little longer, and his wish to tell her that she's beautiful. It's up to Tenma to decide what to do with those feelings - Karasuma says that he will be fine with whatever she chooses.
    Not possessive? All romantic love is possessive to some degree. Karasuma didn't want Harima to see Tenma when she came over to his house. Karasuma also tried to run from Tenma's confession; he doesn't want to let her decide.
    From the very start, Harima's fundamental mistake is that he views Tenma as a possession that he can somehow obtain. He feels that anything concerning automatically concerns him, which is why he feels justified in confronting Karasuma despite the fact that Tenma's relationship is her own business. But as is pointed out in Ch. 254, Harima really just doesn't understand Tenma. Tenma is free spirited - she does whatever she wants, and loves whomever she wants, and nothing that Harima says or does can forcibly change that. Chances are, if Tenma finds out that Harima is assaulting the one she loves, she probably won't be thanking him for it.

    The biggest problem is that Harima somehow feels justified for starting the fight. But even as he plays the role of the hero ("Love her enough to die!"), his actions are overflowing from his own feelings of frustration at being rejected by Tenma. As grand as Harima's gestures are, he is ultimately only trying to make himself feel good by lashing out at Karasuma. Karasuma, too, understands this, which is why he agrees to fight Harima if it will help Harima get rid of his pent up frustration.
    The sidetext observed that Karasuma's buried feelings are coming to the surface, too; Harima isn't the only one who wants to get rid of pent up frustration. Also, I don't think you are being fair to Harima here. Lashing out physically is his only way of expressing his feelings, and Harima is feeling hurt and betrayed by Karasuma. Harima has a great deal of respect for Karasuma. After stepping aside and letting Tenma go to Karasuma, Harima's trust was seemingly betrayed by Karasuma. Harima is driven by his (implicit, not explicit) rejection by Tenma, but those feelings are focused into rage at Karasuma, who threw away Tenma's feelings and hurt her.

    Looking at it from a literary perspective, confronting Karasuma is the most heroic action for Harima. His alternatives are to do nothing (which is right out) and to try to comfort Tenma himself. However, comforting Tenma is not something that Harima is in a place to do; it would also be dangerously close to moving in on her in her moment of weakness. Confronting Karasuma and punishing him for hurting Tenma or even trying to force him to apologize or accept her confession is something much more within the scope of Harima's abilities.

  2. #12
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandman1008
    It's true that we don't know what is the truth behind Tenma's tears, but as I explained in a previous post, I really do not believe that she is crying because Karasuma told her the truth about his condition. When you look at her expression at the end of chapter 261, you see her crying but smiling. That is not the kind of expression you would make when you just found out the one you loved is dying. That is the expression you make when you were just rejected, but you don't want to appear so depressed to your friends, an "Oh well, I guess it just wasn't meant to be" type of expression. As strange a character as Tenma is, she won't try to hide her pain if she found out the one she loved is dying. So, I beleive she was rejected, or if she wasn't rejected verbally, Karasuma may have just walked away from her without saying anything. Either form can be looked at as a rejection. I'm basing this entire post off of the assumption that Karasuma did not tell Tenma the truth and simply rejected her.
    That looks so much more like a grimace than a smile. The curvature of the mouth is a consequence of the fact that her face is not drawn in a purely two dimensional manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandman1008
    It's true that while contronfting Karasuma, Harima's actions are dictated by his own feelings of being rejected. But you also got to understand the situation he's in. He knows that he can't be with the one he loves because Tenma loves Karasuma. Plus, he knows that Karasuma also likes Tenma in return. So, he's here, seeing Tenma being rejected by Karasuma, even though he knows he also likes her back (not gonna say love, because that is not 100% clear), and he can't help but think, "What the hell is wrong with you?" Like I said earleir, I would have done a few things differently, such as asking Karasuma what was going on, but Harima is not the type of person that asks questions first. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. It just makes him different. Also, usually that type of person will eventually find out the truth in the process. So, even though he may be going a bit out of order, I really see no problem in what he's doing. And no, Tenma probably won't be thanking him if she found out that Harima was fighting Karasuma. But in the situation he's in right now, he probably doesn't want to be thanked. He's doing this because he is pissed that Karasuma apparently rejected her even though he likes Tenma, and is trying to knock some sense into him.
    I understand why Harima is acting the way he is. But at the same time, that still doesn't make his actions appropriate. It's clear that he's hurt. But it's also clear that his pain arises from his own stubborn way of thinking. That's what makes the situation unfortunate. If he can overcome his own weakness, then he can become a real hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandman1008
    I don't see how Karasuma can be looked upon as the hero in this situation. If he really wants to let Tenma make a decision on her own free will, then he needs to tell her everything. About his condition, about how he feels, and anything else that there is to tell. After that Tenma can make the decision of whether or not she wants to be with Karasuma. How can you possibly make a decision if you're not told of the situation you're in, in it's entirety? In a way, you can say that him not telling Tenma about everything is the same as Harima confronting Karasuma without Tenma knowing. By not telling Tenma about his condition and rejecting Tenma's confession, he is just doing what he thinks is best for Tenma without actually getting Tenma's input in the situation. Harima is confronting Karasuma because he thinks he's doing what's best for Tenma without actually getting Tenma's input. So, if you want to belittle one character's actions based on this, you have to belittle both characters' actions.
    You're assuming that Karasuma didn't tell her. Unless the manga gives some evidence to support that assumption, you can't really jump to that conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandman1008
    So, I don't think this is tarnishing Harima's character in the slightest. He's just doing what's he's been doing throughout the entire manga. Why would his character be tarnished now, and not earlier in the series when he was doing basically the same thing?
    Well, even if he's been doing it thoughout the manga, that still doesn't make it right. It's just that this time around, his actions are quite a bit more outrageous.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandman1008
    Plus, Harima has done things thoughout the series for Tenma's sake. Among those is the whole birthday party incident. He could have not told Karasuma about Tenma's birthday, and that would have strained their relationship (even if it would only be a little), but he told Karasuma to go because it would have made Tenma happy. You know for sure that it was killing Harima that he was basically helping them get closer, but he would rather see Tenma happy even if it lower his chances with her. Some of his other actions were somewhat self-gratifying, but these two situation (birthday and confronting Karasuma) are actions he's taking for Tenma's, and he's not looking for any kind of thanks from Tenma.
    I agree on the birthday party one. The problem is that Harima keeps wavering between doing the right thing and continuing down the same path that he's always gone down.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    He almost certainly doesn't know about Karasuma's condition, which is the most important factor, but that isn't something which Harima can really be blamed for.
    I think the point is that had he waited to get all the details, he would know.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    Well, there was the time that Karasuma couldn't choose between Tenma and instant curry and then told Harima to go after her for him because there was a sale on curry at a nearby restaurant... Karasuma loves curry as much or more than Tenma. That's at least three-quarters-assed if not half-assed.
    Unfortunately, neither you nor I know the outcome of that incident between the two, nor do we know what was going through the minds of the characters at the time, given that the scene ended with Harima's confession to Eri. But regardless of whether this was simply playful banter or if it was something dreadfully serious, it's clear that whatever happened didn't seriously affect their relationship. As outsiders, we don't really have the right to judge Tenma and Karasuma's relationship, especially given that they both love each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    More importantly, from Harima's perspective Karasuma is just jerking Tenma around. Karasuma told Harima that he would ask her to be his girlfriend after Harima urged him to seize love and manga, and now Karasuma has rejected Tenma? It's very bizarre behavior and even more bizarre to Harima who knows less than we do.
    Again, this is a case where Harima has formed his opinion without getting all the details. That is Harima's big flaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    Not possessive? All romantic love is possessive to some degree. Karasuma didn't want Harima to see Tenma when she came over to his house. Karasuma also tried to run from Tenma's confession; he doesn't want to let her decide.
    Love is never about possession.

    With regards to the confession, without knowing what actually transpired, you're in no position to make such a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    The sidetext observed that Karasuma's buried feelings are coming to the surface, too; Harima isn't the only one who wants to get rid of pent up frustration.
    Generally, when someone ignorantly accuses you of something that you're not, that's usually makes you stand your ground. I don't think it's quite the same thing as assaulting someone just because the girl you want loves him instead of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    Also, I don't think you are being fair to Harima here. Lashing out physically is his only way of expressing his feelings, and Harima is feeling hurt and betrayed by Karasuma.
    Lashing out physically is never the only way that you can express your feelings. What's more, if it was, Harima wouldn't be telling Karasuma what he felt whilst assaulting Karasuma.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    Harima has a great deal of respect for Karasuma. After stepping aside and letting Tenma go to Karasuma, Harima's trust was seemingly betrayed by Karasuma. Harima is driven by his (implicit, not explicit) rejection by Tenma, but those feelings are focused into rage at Karasuma, who threw away Tenma's feelings and hurt her.
    You don't assault someone whom you respect.

    In addition, there is no trust to betray here. Karasuma's relationship with Tenma is none of Harima's business to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    Looking at it from a literary perspective, confronting Karasuma is the most heroic action for Harima. His alternatives are to do nothing (which is right out) and to try to comfort Tenma himself. However, comforting Tenma is not something that Harima is in a place to do; it would also be dangerously close to moving in on her in her moment of weakness. Confronting Karasuma and punishing him for hurting Tenma or even trying to force him to apologize or accept her confession is something much more within the scope of Harima's abilities.
    From a literary standpoint, assaulting a sick individual doesn't usually come across as heroic. I suppose that from Harima's words and gestures, he seems to think that his actions are supremely righteous, but that's where he makes his first mistake.

    You could argue that confronting Karasuma might be an appropriate thing to do when done without violence, but the problem is that he attacked Karasuma before any dialogue transpired between them, and he made no attempt to find out Karasuma's reasons for doing whatever he did. When Harima starts lecturing Karasuma on how to love Tenma, it is clear that he already has his own preconcieved idea of the situation. This is the central flaw in Harima's character, and one which could potentially lead to his downfall if left unchecked.

  3. #13
    sandman1008 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    @Swampstorm: Well, it's obvious that we favor different people. I'm not going to hide it and say that Harima is my favorite character (in fact, I've said it a few times on these forums), so obviously I'm going to have a bias on everything that revolves around Harima. You make valid points, and there is evidence that supports your theories. Other than my assumption about what happened between Karasuma and Tenma, I also make valid points. Depending on who it is you favor, people are going to look at the same situation and come up with different interpretations of it. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying I interpret it differently. There will be people who agree with you, and people who agree with me. I'm just dying to see what happens next.

    Also, there was one possibility that I didn't think of until shortly after I posted my last post. In this scenario, I would sympathize more with Karasuma. I originally said I didn't find it possible that Karasuma told Tenma he was dying because of Tenma's expression (I still think that's a smile, no matter how I look at it). However, it could be possible that Karasuma did in fact tell Tenma about the situation, and they both agreed that it would be better to stay as friends (since he is leaving soon and is ill). Hence that would explain her expression. Tears because she won't be together with Karasuma and that he is leaving and may never see each other again. A smile because she knows that her feelings were requited and that they would still stay friends for however long he has left. So, if that was the situation, I would understand Karasuma more. Not that I still won't sympathize with Harima, but now I would look at Karasuma with more respect. Until we find out what really happened, I'm going to keep on hoping that my original theory was correct. And I'll keep on jumping to conclusions because it's fun to come up with different possible scenarios based on shady occurrences.

    Unless I find out that that possibility that I stated is what actually happened, I'm going to keep on looking at the situation as though Karasuma didn't tell her anything and just rejected her. Because what I see so far, I just can't help but think that is what actually happened.

  4. #14
    NeoSapien is offline Senior Member Regular
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    The main reason that I doubt Tenma heard the whole truth from Karasuma is that I expect School Rumble to have a happy ending, particularly for Tenma. If Tenma learns that Karasuma is dying, she cannot have a happy ending, even with someone else.

  5. #15
    NibellungenValasty is offline Senior Member Regular
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    ^I don't really care about happy ending or bad ending,of course I like happy ending. I just don't want unresolved ending.

    Oh come on, how long you gonna drag a single unrequited love story?for kappa sake, this is a good opportunity to end its all.

  6. #16
    Tetsuji is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    I'm fired up! next chapter come out already!!!

  7. #17
    kniteowl is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    The Ultimate Showdown between the Alien Karasuma and the Deliquent Harima... who will come out Victorious? ... 1 week is a long time to wait lol



  8. #18
    sansafro187 is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    For some reason or another I get the feeling that Harima is probably going to get his ass handed to him in the next chapter. If he's winning, somebody is going to show up and it'll be fun times with misunderstandings.

    For the record, I don't see how anybody could come away with a grimace from the last panel in #261. I'd bet the farm that Karasuma didn't give her a straight answer about the disease. If that were the case I doubt she'd even be able to stand under her own power. It's pretty obvious she was smiling and putting on a brave face if you look at it objectively ,instead of in the most convenient way to suit your own argument.

  9. #19
    NeoSapien is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by sansafro187 View Post
    For some reason or another I get the feeling that Harima is probably going to get his ass handed to him in the next chapter. If he's winning, somebody is going to show up and it'll be fun times with misunderstandings.
    Harima is definitely the underdog in my opinion. Karasuma has been presented as superior to Harima in every way. He easily dodged Harima's Iron Fist of Anger (that was actually a kick) way back in chapter 30something. He was a terror in the survival game, taking out (IIRC) Asou, Suga, that other guy and Eri; he was caught by Tenma only because he was playing along with Akira's scripting. And, of course, he stopped dragon Harima's attack with three fingers and threw him and Eri over a cliff. Finally, he withstood Harima's initial barrage and did equal or greater damage to Harima with just one kick.
    Quote Originally Posted by sansafro187 View Post
    For the record, I don't see how anybody could come away with a grimace from the last panel in #261. I'd bet the farm that Karasuma didn't give her a straight answer about the disease. If that were the case I doubt she'd even be able to stand under her own power. It's pretty obvious she was smiling and putting on a brave face if you look at it objectively ,instead of in the most convenient way to suit your own argument.
    Yeah. Tenma, while heartbroken, didn't look nearly as upset as she should be if she had just learned that Karasuma was dying. Also, I doubt that Karasuma would have just told her that and then left.

  10. #20
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    @sandman1008: In general, I like Harima as a character. He's responsible for a number of the most epic moments in the series, especially when he uses his strength for good of all (the Sports Festival being my favorite example). That's why I really want to see Harima learn from this situation. That way he can go back to being the hero he once was.

    I'd normally be mostly indifferent to Karasuma as a character, except for the fact that he's made some emotionally powerful speeches in the past few chapters. Since most people are used to him being some sort of gag character, it's easy to take Harima's side in this, especially when Harima's lines sound superficially impressive.

    When you follow the story on a week by week basis, it's easy to lose track of the big picture - which is why it's not as easy to understand where Karasuma is coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    The main reason that I doubt Tenma heard the whole truth from Karasuma is that I expect School Rumble to have a happy ending, particularly for Tenma. If Tenma learns that Karasuma is dying, she cannot have a happy ending, even with someone else.
    Tougou it is, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by sansafro187
    For the record, I don't see how anybody could come away with a grimace from the last panel in #261. I'd bet the farm that Karasuma didn't give her a straight answer about the disease. If that were the case I doubt she'd even be able to stand under her own power. It's pretty obvious she was smiling and putting on a brave face if you look at it objectively ,instead of in the most convenient way to suit your own argument.
    I don't see why anyone couldn't come away with a grimace for the last panel in #261. I also don't see how someone's judgement of the emotional nature of a picture could ever be objective.

    From what I can see, the thing that prevents it from being a smile is the fact that Tenma's bottom lip curls upward at the center. That's generally done to show particularily intense crying. Her teeth are also clenched and her forehead is furrowed. KJ has drawn the "smile when hurt" many times in the past, and it looks significantly different from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien
    Harima is definitely the underdog in my opinion. Karasuma has been presented as superior to Harima in every way. He easily dodged Harima's Iron Fist of Anger (that was actually a kick) way back in chapter 30something. He was a terror in the survival game, taking out (IIRC) Asou, Suga, that other guy and Eri; he was caught by Tenma only because he was playing along with Akira's scripting. And, of course, he stopped dragon Harima's attack with three fingers and threw him and Eri over a cliff. Finally, he withstood Harima's initial barrage and did equal or greater damage to Harima with just one kick.
    Given that Karasuma was so vastly superior at combat compared to Harima in the past, if Harima lands attacks on Karasuma, it follows that Karasuma is either allowing Harima to hit him or he is unable to perform at the same level that he used to. The first suggests that he is letting himself injured just to make Harima feel better, and the second suggests that Karasuma's illness puts him at some sort of disadvantage. In either case, Harima cannot be the underdog in this particular fight.

 

 
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