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  1. #21
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    It's also an established philosophical standpoint.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Loves

    In real life, the relationship only moves when you make your feelings known. That requires a trade-off: the risk of jeopardizing the friendship vs. the prospect of entering into a romantic relationship. If the friendship is very deep, it becomes far too valuable to risk losing.
    Well, then you are suggesting the friendship between Yakumo and Harima is very deep. If we are debating which relationship would more likely form realistically from start, then I would argue start off friendly over start off at each other's neck. It's your opinion that the opposite is true, which I can understand because you are an Eri fan.

    Ignoring, of course, the fact that Harima tells Eri that he thinks that she's pretty cute, and ignoring his cell phone message to her that he enjoyed her company.
    Thinking a girl is cute is way different than liking her and wanting to be with her. I can think a girl is cute but she can still be a douche in my eyes and I would not want to be with her.

    There's actually a fair amount of psychological evidence that supports it. There are many things that can change your opinions about a person, but they don't necessarily change the intensity of your feelings for them. There's a fine line between love and hate.
    Not really. Just think about it. You meet a guy/girl you don't get a long with, you just don't go out of your way to be with them and try to like them. The situation is certainly entertaining (cliche) to watch but unrealistic.

    They never had all that many meetings to begin with, and nothing suggests that either one went in with the intention of seeing each other.

    That being said, Harima did fart on Yakumo, so I guess that in Riceball-vision, that amounts to the same thing as territorial marking in animals.
    Except all the times Harima called her (remember I said wanting to be with her on a platonic level) to ask for her help. And I can't think of any Riceball fan to think that Yakumo being farted on was a plus+ for Riceball, so that's very petty for you to suggest that (everything leading up to that was a plus though).

    Every romantic interest is either deredere, tsundere, or deretsun (yandere). Could you be any more all-inclusive?
    Tsundere's are probably the most cliche. I think it has a lot to due with that fact that otakus fantasize about girls they like, that don't like them, actually ending up liking them. Living through their mangas methinks. It's textbook stuff the Eri-Harima-esque relationship and follows the same formula in most popular mangas. Obviously, you are an Eri fan and will disagree and think their relationship is "special", but I would (in my opinion) disagree.

    Yamato Nadeshiko is the tsundere of the 90's. That's a textbook that's so old that it's out of print.
    Yakumo is hardly perfect (too shy, reserved), and she is a cliche character, but usually her characters (in shounen at least) ends up option 2. If you think it's textbook for a shounen character to fall in love with Yakumo-type character, name two. I would like to hear them, then read them. =).

    Yakumo just doesn't work as a romantic lead. Love comes from emotional expression, not abstract philosophizing.
    So you are saying, Yakumo is a machine with no emotions and won't work as a romantic lead. Hmm, well if that's what you think, then your point of view is pretty set there buddy.

    She's an excellent Fifth Business, though. Between the Harima and Hanai webs, I can't think of a single character who has been used more often as a plot device to create a crisis when needed.
    O really, try Eri =).

  2. #22
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Well, then you are suggesting the friendship between Yakumo and Harima is very deep.
    In his writing, Lewis reasons that friendship is the least natural connection between two people, and that it is often driven by the need to satisfy immediate material goals rather than attain spiritual fulfillment. This can lead to them being quite narrow in nature.

    All of this applies quite well to Yakumo's relationship with Harima. Their interactions started based on Harima's need to complete his manga, and they continue to revolve around that.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    If we are debating which relationship would more likely form realistically from start, then I would argue start off friendly over start off at each other's neck. It's your opinion that the opposite is true, which I can understand because you are an Eri fan.
    Something that is stable does not change with time. A stable relationship is one which is permanantly fixed in the level that it was at when it became stable.

    The idea of friendly/unfriendly isn't the only issue under consideration. Yakumo and Harima have had the exact same relationship for a long time. The relationship has time to settle and stabilize, and both are comfortable where they are. By contrast, Eri and Harima have been constantly reassessing each other throughout the story - neither have reached a level at which they both are comfortable. Since their relationship hasn't become stable yet, there is still room for their relationship to become a full blown romance.

    It's the same as that friends/lovers dilemma. Once two people establish that they are friends, it becomes much more difficult for them to see each other as anything else.

    From a psychological standpoint, we tend to have higher opinions of people who initially view us in a negative light and gradually start to like us than we do of people who like us from the outset. This partially has to do with the human tendancy to take things for granted. The easier that something is to attain, the less valuable it becomes.

    In reverse, when we revise our opinions even slightly out of our own volition, the new opinions often become much stronger than the original ones were. This ties into the foot-in-the-door principle (and more generally, the idea of "cognitive dissonance"), which lead your percieved actions to further influence your opinions.

    There are a lot of "irrational" mechanisms at work here.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Thinking a girl is cute is way different than liking her and wanting to be with her. I can think a girl is cute but she can still be a douche in my eyes and I would not want to be with her.
    Your point here is only relevant if the guy in question doesn't enjoy the company of the girl that he is with. But in that same line that you quoted, there is also mention of the fact that Harima text messaged Eri telling her that he had a lot of fun with her and that they should meet again. That part, of course, renders your statement irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Not really. Just think about it. You meet a guy/girl you don't get a long with, you just don't go out of your way to be with them and try to like them. The situation is certainly entertaining (cliche) to watch but unrealistic.
    Whether this is cliche or not has nothing to do with the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Except all the times Harima called her (remember I said wanting to be with her on a platonic level) to ask for her help.
    All the times that he called her for help? That's still purpose driven.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And I can't think of any Riceball fan to think that Yakumo being farted on was a plus+ for Riceball, so that's very petty for you to suggest that (everything leading up to that was a plus though).
    You're not every Riceball fan, so you certainly can't think for the rest of them.

    Besides, the manga doesn't come with "scratch and sniff" Yakumo, so you shouldn't really let that bother you. The smell, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Tsundere's are probably the most cliche. I think it has a lot to due with that fact that otakus fantasize about girls they like, that don't like them, actually ending up liking them. Living through their mangas methinks. It's textbook stuff the Eri-Harima-esque relationship and follows the same formula in most popular mangas. Obviously, you are an Eri fan and will disagree and think their relationship is "special", but I would (in my opinion) disagree.
    Again, whether you think the relationship is cliche really has nothing to do with the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yakumo is hardly perfect (too shy, reserved), and she is a cliche character, but usually her characters (in shounen at least) ends up option 2. If you think it's textbook for a shounen character to fall in love with Yakumo-type character, name two. I would like to hear them, then read them. =).
    1. Belldandy (AMG!)
    2. Aoi Sakuraba (Aoi Yori Aoshi)

    Yakumo isn't Belldandy-calibur, of course, since she lacks that "sunshine quality" due to her underlying yandere traits. Aoi is a really close match, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    So you are saying, Yakumo is a machine with no emotions and won't work as a romantic lead. Hmm, well if that's what you think, then your point of view is pretty set there buddy.
    Your words, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    O really, try Eri =).
    I would, but then I'd have to insist on keeping her. <3

  3. #23
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    In his writing, Lewis reasons that friendship is the least natural connection between two people, and that it is often driven by the need to satisfy immediate material goals rather than attain spiritual fulfillment. This can lead to them being quite narrow in nature.

    All of this applies quite well to Yakumo's relationship with Harima. Their interactions started based on Harima's need to complete his manga, and they continue to revolve around that.
    Once again, you stated, deep friendships don't tend to evolve into relationships but I have to disagree here and I won't use the work of one author subjective opinion to verify it. If friendships are deep, they go beyond material goals and eventually become spiritual fulfillment. Obviously, in the conquest of material goals (such as finishing mangas), Yakumo fulfilled more than just helping Harima finish a manga but also helping him as a person. (remember it was Yakumo who convinced Harima to continue writing manga) Helping someone realize their meaning (Harima had a pen name of Hario to make children laugh) goes way beyond that.

    Something that is stable does not change with time. A stable relationship is one which is permanantly fixed in the level that it was at when it became stable.

    The idea of friendly/unfriendly isn't the only issue under consideration. Yakumo and Harima have had the exact same relationship for a long time. The relationship has time to settle and stabilize, and both are comfortable where they are. By contrast, Eri and Harima have been constantly reassessing each other throughout the story - neither have reached a level at which they both are comfortable. Since their relationship hasn't become stable yet, there is still room for their relationship to become a full blown romance.

    It's the same as that friends/lovers dilemma. Once two people establish that they are friends, it becomes much more difficult for them to see each other as anything else.

    From a psychological standpoint, we tend to have higher opinions of people who initially view us in a negative light and gradually start to like us than we do of people who like us from the outset. This partially has to do with the human tendancy to take things for granted. The easier that something is to attain, the less valuable it becomes.

    In reverse, when we revise our opinions even slightly out of our own volition, the new opinions often become much stronger than the original ones were. This ties into the foot-in-the-door principle (and more generally, the idea of "cognitive dissonance"), which lead your percieved actions to further influence your opinions.

    There are a lot of "irrational" mechanisms at work here.
    That is sort of a double-standard point. Yakumo doesn't have room to grow, but Eri does and the reasoning behind this, you argue, is that once you become friends with someone it is harder to fall in love with them then having a negative view of someone and then gradually not hating them.

    So, by that rationale, if I want a girl/guy to like me, I'll start by kicking /hisher in face and then shaving his/her head and begin to lay off a bit on him/her. Rather than, say, I help him/her with something, slowly get to know them and become their friend. The first scenario seems to unrealistic.

    Your point here is only relevant if the guy in question doesn't enjoy the company of the girl that he is with. But in that same line that you quoted, there is also mention of the fact that Harima text messaged Eri telling her that he had a lot of fun with her and that they should meet again. That part, of course, renders your statement irrelevant.
    You are too quick to rush to your own conclusions. Telling a girl, I enjoyed your company, is not the same as telling a girl, I like you. One is polite, the other is out of affection. And it still brings back to the point I made that thinking a girl is cute is not grounds for liking a person and wanting to be with her.

    All the times that he called her for help? That's still purpose driven.
    Note platonic level, you said that only in OOC WAFF riceball fanfics would Harima want to be with Yakumo. I disagree, even if it's purpose driven.

    Whether this is cliche or not has nothing to do with the topic.
    My original point was that the Eri/Harima road is cliche, so it was my original topic.

    Again, whether you think the relationship is cliche really has nothing to do with the topic.
    Again, my original intent and point. This is originally about what I think flag would end up like, (cliche) and you are trying to argue what I should think flag would be like (the greatest love ever).

    1. Belldandy (AMG!)
    2. Aoi Sakuraba (Aoi Yori Aoshi)

    Yakumo isn't Belldandy-calibur, of course, since she lacks that "sunshine quality" due to her underlying yandere traits. Aoi is a really close match, though.
    Hard to compare to a goddess, you expect her to be perfect. And Belldandy is very different than Yakumo. Aoi is a good example, but again the Naru types heavily outweigh the Aoi types in modern shounen, and Eri + Harima seems like it pulls out all the cliche from the tsundere section. Wonder if you got your examples here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_Nadeshiko

    Your words, not mine.
    Well you said that love comes from emotional expression, and Yakumo doesn't work as a romantic lead because of this. Harima himself doesn't show any romantic feelings for anyone other than Tenma. So I don't see why Yakumo is excluded from being with Harima and why Eri is included.

    And you make two points, one that the shy-girl types are cliche and romance between them and the main character of a manga has been used a lot in the past. And two, that Yakumo can't be the romantic interest in Harima life because she is too yandere and friends with Harima.

    I would, but then I'd have to insist on keeping her. <3
    Hmm, you do know shes a fictional character right.... JK, but Eri causes way more conflicts than Yakumo and the fact that you state you can't think of another character that causes more conflicts than her, means that you have a double standard of argument.

  4. #24
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I agree - I can't see any resemblence between Belldandy and Yakumo beside the fact that they are quite calm - but Belldandy is calm because she is inhumanly optimistic and Yakumo is calm...because her father abused her with some crappy manga's..

  5. #25
    3955elits is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Yakumo is calm...because her father abused her with some crappy manga's..
    really?I think I've never read that before.


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  6. #26
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again, you stated, deep friendships don't tend to evolve into relationships but I have to disagree here and I won't use the work of one author subjective opinion to verify it.
    You haven't used anything other than your own subjective opinion to validate anything that you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    If friendships are deep, they go beyond material goals and eventually become spiritual fulfillment.
    At which point we aren't talking about friendship.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Obviously, in the conquest of material goals (such as finishing mangas), Yakumo fulfilled more than just helping Harima finish a manga but also helping him as a person. (remember it was Yakumo who convinced Harima to continue writing manga) Helping someone realize their meaning (Harima had a pen name of Hario to make children laugh) goes way beyond that.
    Actually, in Ch.216, Yakumo comes to the conclusion that she isn't the one who will be able to bring Harima back to writing manga.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That is sort of a double-standard point. Yakumo doesn't have room to grow, but Eri does and the reasoning behind this, you argue, is that once you become friends with someone it is harder to fall in love with them then having a negative view of someone and then gradually not hating them.
    No. The point is that becoming friends with someone can hinder your chances of entering into a romantic relationship with them. If you're romantically interested in someone, it's far better to ask them out right from the onset, rather than waiting to be categorized. In Harima and Eri's case, neither really knows what their relationship is with respect to each other - so that process of categorization hasn't completed itself yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    So, by that rationale, if I want a girl/guy to like me, I'll start by kicking /hisher in face and then shaving his/her head and begin to lay off a bit on him/her. Rather than, say, I help him/her with something, slowly get to know them and become their friend. The first scenario seems to unrealistic.
    Well, for starters, you can't make someone like you, whether you're nice to them or not. All I'm doing is explaining a mechanism which explains why people can fall in love with people to whom they are initially antagonistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You are too quick to rush to your own conclusions. Telling a girl, I enjoyed your company, is not the same as telling a girl, I like you. One is polite, the other is out of affection. And it still brings back to the point I made that thinking a girl is cute is not grounds for liking a person and wanting to be with her.
    You contradicted yourself completely.
    Enjoying someone's company is not grounds for wanting to be with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Note platonic level, you said that only in OOC WAFF riceball fanfics would Harima want to be with Yakumo. I disagree, even if it's purpose driven.
    A supervisor in a company spends time with his/her subordinates, but that doesn't mean that he/she wants to be with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    My original point was that the Eri/Harima road is cliche, so it was my original topic.
    That only indicates that your original posts were also irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Again, my original intent and point. This is originally about what I think flag would end up like, (cliche) and you are trying to argue what I should think flag would be like (the greatest love ever).
    Nope. The point of this thread is to discuss whether Flag is feasible over the long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Hard to compare to a goddess, you expect her to be perfect. And Belldandy is very different than Yakumo. Aoi is a good example, but again the Naru types heavily outweigh the Aoi types in modern shounen, and Eri + Harima seems like it pulls out all the cliche from the tsundere section. Wonder if you got your examples here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_Nadeshiko
    Nope. It probably would have been a good place to look, though.

    Actually, if you're going to use the umbrella term 'tsundere', it has to be compared with the umbrella term 'deredere'. Terms like Yamato Nadeshiko and genki are actually subcategories within deredere, just as ojousama is often a subcategory within tsundere.

    The vast majority of romantic leads are deredere. They're often very easy to write because of their one-dimensional nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Well you said that love comes from emotional expression, and Yakumo doesn't work as a romantic lead because of this. Harima himself doesn't show any romantic feelings for anyone other than Tenma. So I don't see why Yakumo is excluded from being with Harima and why Eri is included.
    That's because Eri expresses her feelings towards Harima. Yakumo spends much more time reflecting on and intellectualizing her experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And you make two points, one that the shy-girl types are cliche and romance between them and the main character of a manga has been used a lot in the past. And two, that Yakumo can't be the romantic interest in Harima life because she is too yandere and friends with Harima.
    It doesn't look like you really understand any of what I've written.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Hmm, you do know shes a fictional character right.... JK, but Eri causes way more conflicts than Yakumo and the fact that you state you can't think of another character that causes more conflicts than her, means that you have a double standard of argument.
    I didn't say anything of the sort. Since as your original statement was just along the lines of "no... u", it didn't deserve a response.

    The word 'conflict' refers to crisis/catharsis, as in the build-up and release of dramatic tension. Perhaps that should help.

  7. #27
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    She did get some stupid book from her daddy and she transformed from rebelious Yakumo to calm Yakumo...well, Tenma was involved in it..deeply - I just simplified it

  8. #28
    3955elits is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    when?it's not when her stupid-not pretty-but-the-heroine neechan made her angry right?


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  9. #29
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    You haven't used anything other than your own subjective opinion to validate anything that you wrote.
    Of course, I understand my opinion is subjective, that is the difference. I never came to debate, but since Eri fans usually want everyone to understand how they feel, it will naturally come to a debate. Here's my opinion, I don't think Eri and Harima will work. I think Harima is more naturally suited to Yakumo. That's my opinion, it might not be yours but I don't make it so that this comment is concrete and universal. Saying something like, friendships are harder to turn into love than people who start antagonizing each other and falling in love, and basing it on one author's subjective opinion is a weak and flawed point. Friendships start off naturally nice and form because of common traits and friendliness to each other. Love can not form from the same base?

    At which point we aren't talking about friendship.
    Friendships can't be deep and people who are friends, can't be lovers as well as in love with each other? Friends can't fulfill each other spiritually? Hmm...

    Actually, in Ch.216, Yakumo comes to the conclusion that she isn't the one who will be able to bring Harima back to writing manga
    Yet you ignore the original chapter where Yakumo dresses up as a manga master and convinces Harima to continue writing manga. And in Ch 216, it says nothing about Yakumo coming to conclusion that she did not bring Harima back from writing manga.

    No. The point is that becoming friends with someone can hinder your chances of entering into a romantic relationship with them. If you're romantically interested in someone, it's far better to ask them out right from the onset, rather than waiting to be categorized. In Harima and Eri's case, neither really knows what their relationship is with respect to each other - so that process of categorization hasn't completed itself yet.
    That's a very conclusive subjective statement that bears no evidence. And backing up a very conclusive subjective statement with another person's very conclusive statement would be doing the same thing. Friendships, again, start off with the agreement that you like each other as people and you share some similar traits that lead you to be friends. Love is like friendship but with one trait above it and that's physical and sexual attraction. So far, Harima hasn't shown that to anyone besides Tenma (in a romantic permanent way, not just "hey she's hot"). But even with this, you say that Yakumo is prevented from a relationship with Harima and yet Eri isn't? This is totally double-standard. Don't you remember, Eri already got rejected? Wouldn't romantically, not how much time they spent together, Eri and Yakumo be at the same distance from Harima?

    Well, for starters, you can't make someone like you, whether you're nice to them or not. All I'm doing is explaining a mechanism which explains why people can fall in love with people to whom they are initially antagonistic.
    This is rationale in your argument that if we are in the same situation as Harima we would tend to like people who kick us in the face and shave our heads more than say, people who help us out and give us advice more?

    You contradicted yourself completely.
    Enjoying someone's company is not grounds for wanting to be with them?
    You see, it's polite to say things like, I enjoyed your company, you wouldn't expect him to say, "Ojou, you suck and I didn't enjoy your company". Harima hasn't made a real conscious effort to be with Eri. Actually, the manga contradicts this, he would rather be with a cat than Eri given the chance. He would rather eat shrimp with Tenma than Eri given the chance.

    A supervisor in a company spends time with his/her subordinates, but that doesn't mean that he/she wants to be with them.
    Supervisors are bound to their workers and this is a very poor example. Harima isn't bound to be with Yakumo. He chose to have her help him. He chose to bear his emotions infront of her. He chose to share his dreams. Even if Yakumo herself, wants Harima to be with other people, it is Harima who wants to be with Yakumo. Now, I'm not saying this is romantic in any way, but that is how it is.

    That only indicates that your original posts were also irrelevant.
    Well, if we stick to the topic of this discussion, we were asked about our opinions on flag ending and I stated my opinion. I don't see how it's as irrelevant as anyone else's.

    Nope. The point of this thread is to discuss whether Flag is feasible over the long term.
    And I would argue subjectively that it wouldn't. We don't have no basis to base this on seeing how we both aren't KJ and we both can't see the future.

    Nope. It probably would have been a good place to look, though.

    Actually, if you're going to use the umbrella term 'tsundere', it has to be compared with the umbrella term 'deredere'. Terms like Yamato Nadeshiko and genki are actually subcategories within deredere, just as ojousama is often a subcategory within tsundere.

    The vast majority of romantic leads are deredere. They're often very easy to write because of their one-dimensional nature.
    Actually, in most romantic mangas, all females leads will eventually become deredere, and deredere is too vast a category. If we look at prototypes of female manga tsundere, the Asuka-Naru-Eri-Satsuki-Haruhi-Rukia-Caska-Sakura-Akane-Kagome-etc, all start off pretty much the same way and most of them end up the same way. Yakumo closest comparison can be Aya Toujou, Shinobu, and Aoi. These are the incredibly shy and reserve types. Yamato Nadeshiko can be more like Orihime, Belldandy, Nishino. Out of those three pathways, rarely do authors make the final road to the shy/reserved types. Aya came close but got shafted in the end. And Aoi was basically bound to Kaoru from beginning.
    My arguement is that, the Asuka-Naru-Eri-Satsuki-Haruhi-Rukia-Caska-Sakura-Akane-Kagome-Azusa-etc are usually the most cliche romance plotlines.

    That's because Eri expresses her feelings towards Harima. Yakumo spends much more time reflecting on and intellectualizing her experiences.
    Feelings like jealousy, denial and frustration? Eri had a good chance when she was rejected to tell Harima how she felt but she lied about it. Yakumo feels things for Harima too but she knows her feelings would only burden Harima. I think there are some expressions worth keeping and left unsaid.

    It doesn't look like you really understand any of what I've written.
    I can't see why Yakumo can't be Harima's love interest besides the fact that you don't think they can. Right now Harima only likes Tenma romantically so any girl other than her probably has the same equal chance. If KJ goes with Eri, I'll respect his decision, but it's probably the most cliche route IMO.

    didn't say anything of the sort. Since as your original statement was just along the lines of "no... u", it didn't deserve a response.

    The word 'conflict' refers to crisis/catharsis, as in the build-up and release of dramatic tension. Perhaps that should help.
    Well your original post was saying that you can't think of anyone who causes more conflict than Yakumo and I gave you an example of someone who causes more conflict. If we look at the past, let's see, Eri basically started the conflict with Mikoto because she misunderstood her relation with Harima. Eri started the fight with Yakumo on stage because she misunderstood her relation with Harima. Eri basically started antagonizing her relationship with Tenma because she misunderstood her relationship with Harima. Eri kneed Harima in the face because she misunderstood her relationship with Tae. Need I go on?

    Again, this is wonderful debating and all, but it's my opinion that flag ending would be ackward and cliche. You have your own opinions and thats fine, but you know there are other people who read School Rumble have different opinions.

  10. #30
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Of course, I understand my opinion is subjective, that is the difference. I never came to debate, but since Eri fans usually want everyone to understand how they feel, it will naturally come to a debate.
    It only takes a few lines to state an opinion. What's taking you so long?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Here's my opinion, I don't think Eri and Harima will work. I think Harima is more naturally suited to Yakumo. That's my opinion, it might not be yours but I don't make it so that this comment is concrete and universal. Saying something like, friendships are harder to turn into love than people who start antagonizing each other and falling in love, and basing it on one author's subjective opinion is a weak and flawed point. Friendships start off naturally nice and form because of common traits and friendliness to each other. Love can not form from the same base?
    If that's all there is to your opinion, then there isn't anything here that we haven't already heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Friendships can't be deep and people who are friends, can't be lovers as well as in love with each other? Friends can't fulfill each other spiritually? Hmm...
    If you're dating someone, do you usually introduce them as your friend, or are you more specific?

    If friendship becomes love, then it's called love.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yet you ignore the original chapter where Yakumo dresses up as a manga master and convinces Harima to continue writing manga. And in Ch 216, it says nothing about Yakumo coming to conclusion that she did not bring Harima back from writing manga.
    It's in the line at the top of the last page.

    Yakumo doesn't do anything without Sara giving her orders. If there's credit to be given, it belongs entirely to Sara.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That's a very conclusive subjective statement that bears no evidence.
    I gave you the explanation in an earlier post. Go read any introductory textbook on social psychology if you need further explaination or proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Friendships, again, start off with the agreement that you like each other as people and you share some similar traits that lead you to be friends. Love is like friendship but with one trait above it and that's physical and sexual attraction. So far, Harima hasn't shown that to anyone besides Tenma (in a romantic permanent way, not just "hey she's hot").
    No. Friendship does not require a spiritual bond, and you can love someone that you're not sexually attracted to. Familial love is an example of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    But even with this, you say that Yakumo is prevented from a relationship with Harima and yet Eri isn't? This is totally double-standard. Don't you remember, Eri already got rejected? Wouldn't romantically, not how much time they spent together, Eri and Yakumo be at the same distance from Harima?
    Actually, Harima thinks that he was rejected by Eri, and Eri thinks that she was rejected by Harima.

    Yakumo doesn't want a romantic relationship with Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    This is rationale in your argument that if we are in the same situation as Harima we would tend to like people who kick us in the face and shave our heads more than say, people who help us out and give us advice more?
    You seem to be having difficulty distinguishing between serious moments and comedy. Would you try to pose an argument based on the fact that Harima threw himself out the window of a bus and landed on a truck?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You see, it's polite to say things like, I enjoyed your company, you wouldn't expect him to say, "Ojou, you suck and I didn't enjoy your company".
    Harima doesn't care about etiquette.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Harima hasn't made a real conscious effort to be with Eri. Actually, the manga contradicts this, he would rather be with a cat than Eri given the chance. He would rather eat shrimp with Tenma than Eri given the chance.
    Harima obviously went on that date with Eri to avoid her.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Supervisors are bound to their workers and this is a very poor example. Harima isn't bound to be with Yakumo. He chose to have her help him.
    Actually, you'd better reread that part of the manga. He's at the end of his rope because he thinks that people who know him might make fun of him if he asks for their opinion, so he just looks for the first person that he doesn't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    He chose to bear his emotions infront of her. He chose to share his dreams.
    Harima bears his feelings pretty much everywhere he goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Even if Yakumo herself, wants Harima to be with other people, it is Harima who wants to be with Yakumo. Now, I'm not saying this is romantic in any way, but that is how it is.
    I've read that in a fanfic once.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Well, if we stick to the topic of this discussion, we were asked about our opinions on flag ending and I stated my opinion. I don't see how it's as irrelevant as anyone else's.
    Actually, you were asked whether a relationship like Flag would work in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And I would argue subjectively that it wouldn't. We don't have no basis to base this on seeing how we both aren't KJ and we both can't see the future.
    But you haven't. You've been wasting time on side issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Actually, in most romantic mangas, all females leads will eventually become deredere, and deredere is too vast a category.
    No. By definition, deredere starts dere, and ends dere. Tsundere starts tsun, and ends dere.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    If we look at prototypes of female manga tsundere, the Asuka-Naru-Eri-Satsuki-Haruhi-Rukia-Caska-Sakura-Akane-Kagome-etc, all start off pretty much the same way and most of them end up the same way. Yakumo closest comparison can be Aya Toujou, Shinobu, and Aoi. These are the incredibly shy and reserve types. Yamato Nadeshiko can be more like Orihime, Belldandy, Nishino. Out of those three pathways, rarely do authors make the final road to the shy/reserved types. Aya came close but got shafted in the end. And Aoi was basically bound to Kaoru from beginning.
    Yakumo's archetype is archetypical? Imagine that.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    My arguement is that, the Asuka-Naru-Eri-Satsuki-Haruhi-Rukia-Caska-Sakura-Akane-Kagome-Azusa-etc are usually the most cliche romance plotlines.
    Not when the male lead is tsundere as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Feelings like jealousy, denial and frustration? Eri had a good chance when she was rejected to tell Harima how she felt but she lied about it. Yakumo feels things for Harima too but she knows her feelings would only burden Harima. I think there are some expressions worth keeping and left unsaid.
    If Yakumo has these so called "feelings" for Harima and they burden him, that indicates that he does not want her, which contradicts your earlier claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I can't see why Yakumo can't be Harima's love interest besides the fact that you don't think they can. Right now Harima only likes Tenma romantically so any girl other than her probably has the same equal chance. If KJ goes with Eri, I'll respect his decision, but it's probably the most cliche route IMO.
    It's not that she can't, but that she doesn't want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Well your original post was saying that you can't think of anyone who causes more conflict than Yakumo and I gave you an example of someone who causes more conflict. If we look at the past, let's see, Eri basically started the conflict with Mikoto because she misunderstood her relation with Harima. Eri started the fight with Yakumo on stage because she misunderstood her relation with Harima. Eri basically started antagonizing her relationship with Tenma because she misunderstood her relationship with Harima. Eri kneed Harima in the face because she misunderstood her relationship with Tae. Need I go on?
    You should probably try to read what a post says before you try to reply to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Again, this is wonderful debating and all, but it's my opinion that flag ending would be ackward and cliche. You have your own opinions and thats fine, but you know there are other people who read School Rumble have different opinions.
    Thanks for the info. Read the topic.
    Last edited by Swampstorm; 09-28-2007 at 12:32 PM.

 

 
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