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  1. #41
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    But that would still mean Harima would rather confide in Yakumo (who is not related to him) and call her his little sister.
    Harima doesn't really confide to Yakumo. What she knows about Harima isn't typically a result of him confiding in her; rather, Yakumo comes across knowledge of him by chance. Like, she finds out about the manga by accidently finding it at her workplace, not by Harima telling her of it. In another example, he actually tries to do the opposite and lies to her when she begins to make a connection between his manga and his real life in Volume Seven.

    It's quite a contrast to the way he admits he likes Tenma when he believes Eri is asking him about his feelings for her, and the way he tells Eri about his personal philosophies and aspirations in Chapter 152. Furthermore, Harima seems to be more upset by the notion that Eri broke his trust, instead of his manga, in Chapter 216, so it's quite clear that Harima trusts Eri (or trusted...).

    Quote Originally Posted by ratzuei View Post
    Well in the character development thing, i think that JK wanted to develop the relationships between the characters more than the characters themselves(I think its because of his own style to focus in several characters rather than one or two). If you can remember at the beginning Tenma practically didnt know that harima existed and later on they have became very good friends, and the same it could be said to harima´s view on karasuma
    Considering that interactions between characters tend to lead to individual character development, rather than relationship development, I think that the progress characters have made by themselves is the priority in School Rumble.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yep, I'll keep using it because this discussion should of been ended a long time ago when I showed you guys the picture of Tenma being the main character. Again you are arguing with KJ here, not me.
    Yet, you argued that Scout isn't the protagonist of To Kill a Mockingbird, despite websites and summaries describing her as such (http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/mocking/characters.html). Double standards for the lose.

    Also, that card says that being the main character is Tenma's job/occupation, but the node (on that very card) for main character shows that Kobayashi doesn't think she's doing a great job of it. In other words, you're the one arguing with Kobayashi Jin.
    Last edited by ultraness; 08-19-2007 at 08:42 PM.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  2. #42
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Um, I'll put it in context you can understand. Say you had two friends you met at the same time, of the opposite sex. One is a stranger and then becomes your friend. You quickly can confide in this friend, tell her your emotions and aspirations. The other is a stranger, who appears to be an enemy but then you find out is a friend but now you wonder if she really is your enemy again and you find it more difficult to confide in her than your first friend. Now, would you view your second friend as more important than your first friend or what? We are talking from Harima's prospect, not Eri.
    How is this related to our discussion about Harima's character development and Flag's place as one of main stories in SR?

    You should change it to, "Yakumo made Harima open his heart more than anyone else did."
    Do I have to repeat my post about how it is hared to open your soul towards Eri then towards Yakumo? If you have problems with that part of one of my previous posts, please tell me, why do you think that Eri is easier to talk about your inner problems with then Yakumo.


    Selfishness to real caring, it's always apparent to Harima that Tenma likes Karasuma and he has done little to change this. Remember the curry incident at the beginning of the manga and the birthday incident. Harima hasn't change in that aspect.
    Yes, Harima knew all along that Tenma likes him, but his reactions to Karasuma are always different. In Curry episode you mentioned (chapter 33) Harima reacts at Tenma's tears like any normal alfa male - he attacke Karauma who just made "Harima's girl" cry. In biorthday incident situation is already different - Harima notices taht Tenma is not energetic and goes to Karasuma and, instead of attacking him like he did in chapter 33, he tells him to go to Tenma's party. See the difference? In latest chapter Harima makes even more, looking at how the situation is different now: for Harima Karasuma's departure is a big chance to take Tenma so it is complitely illogical for him (typical alfa male) to miss this chance - but he not thinking of himself, starts to think about Tenma's feelings. Second stage of development.

    And Tenma is has opened up to Karasuma, remember when she was drawing his picture she could barely look at him and now she can talk to him and hang out with him. That's a big difference.
    That great changed occured in, like, volume 2. Also, did it require character developemnt for Tenma? I did not notice any. Yes, it was a good example of relatioship developemnt, but not character development.

    And Tenma hasn't been placed in a position where we can judge if she thinks that. Has Tenma ever said, no Karasuma shouldn't go to USA?
    In volume one she gets to know that Karasuma is about to leave. Thats when she was placed in the position to think that.
    And yes, Tenma said it = she wrote her long letter that prevented him form going.

    Shrine just proves that hes a tough guy on the outside but a nice guy in the middle. Something alluded to, when he rescued Tenma a loong time ago. So he hasn't change in that aspect.
    Shrine also broke his tunnel vision of Tenma, making Harima think about girl other then Tenma while that girls wasn't even trying to make him think it.

    According to Yakumo, Harima's static feelings for Tenma are one of his basic personal characteristics. Changing of that = character developement.

    Rejection of rejection, explain how that changed his character. He was still prone to falling because of his pride like he did in early manga. Again you have to give me something that changed between Chapter 2 and Chapter 237. And it has to show that his personality changed more than Tenma.
    RofR is basically the same as shrine episode, it breaks the tunnel vision even more. Now HArima is depressed to face Eri alone and for this reason alone skips school (noone else can be his reason to do it since noone else knows). All previous episodes he was embarrased only of Tenma.

    Again that hasn't changed in the beginning. The very second chapter of the series, we have Harima, who doesn't normally care about classes or grade wanting not to be held back so he can be with Tenma. Later we have Harima wanting to go to the beach because of Tenma. And now the previous chapter. You haven't given any proof of him changing from the beginning in a way that differs his change from Tenma.
    Exactly, in the begining Harima entered class only to be near Tenma. But now it is different - in the last chapter he says "The class must feel like there is a big gaping hole in it" The class not just Tenma is what Harima is interested in now.

    If you do not believe Tohru is the protagonist and main character than I can not help you here. There is without a doubt, Tohru is the main character and protagonist of Fruits Basket.
    I never said that Tohru is not protagonist, i said that she is protagonist not because of her being the motor of the story.

    Again but you miss the point. Manaka, is without a doubt the main character and protagonist of Ichigo 100%. All the girl characters revolve around him and his choices. If you can not see that Manaka is the protagonist and main character of Ichigo 100%, I can not help you here.
    I was not arguing about Manaka being main or not main character. Of couse he is, he, aftre all, gets pretty much of development. I was countering your point about Tenma being main character because her story will be finished even if Harima's story finishes earlier. For that i posted Mikoto as an example of character that is far from being main and that will surely have her story finished by the end of the manga.

    And you argue that the role of a protagonist is not to move the story but you are wrong here. I think you are confused about what the protagonist is. He/she can be static (but can be dynamic), they can move the plot (or can be a simple observer) and he/she can be two or more people (left to interpretation, unless the author specifies).

    <..>

    Even if they are from different genres, a protagonist between two genres and it's definition doesn't change. Again, I think you do not understand what a protagonist is and it doesn't have to fit any definition and the definition doesn't change via genre.
    From Wiki's article we can see that a requirment to move the story to fill the certain definition exists for antogonist and dynamic character, not for protogonist. That, of course, doesn't mean that being protagonist one can't move the story. It also means that you do not have to move it to be one.

    Reread Wiki's article, it is clearly said there that protagonist can be different depending on genre. It is obvious from an example with 19th century love novels. It is also easily understandeble, since in different genres focus of story is different - in detective we are interested in crimes and how they would be solved by detective - main character. To solve crimes he simply doesn't need any charcter developement. Romance genre is different, since characters are made to overcome not only obstacles from outside, but from inside as well, which makes them change.


    But since the emphasis is on me to find proof to show you, Haruhi from Ouran High School Host Club (and yes, Haruhi is without a doubt the protagonist of Ouran). Haruhi, although she is altered physically, (sometimes between girl, guy and in the beginning a messy nerdy tomboy). Haruhi never changes her personality (much like Tenma). She is still opinionated, acts tomboyish, and very coolheaded . Even when Tamaki and Hikaru fall in love with her she is still the same, oblivious to them and cares little for romance. Again her being a somewhat static character, keeps Ouran very much the same in style. If she were to become very serious and shy, it would ruin the consistency of the manga. Tamaki can change and Hikaru grow to become more independent from his twin but Haruhi will still be the main character.
    I never read Ouran so my comments on it will be based only on information you just provided. Haruhi here looks like dynamic character, while those boys who have supposedly recieved developmet are protagonists. I'll quote Wiki for you to explain how a characetr may be a focus os the story and not be protagonist at the same time:
    A refinement can be introduced by an author using the first, evolving, type of protagonist as in Herman Melville's "Bartleby the Scrivener";though a novel may center on the actions of another character, it is the dynamic character who typically allows the plot to progress in a manner that is conducive to the thesis of the work, and thereby focuses the attention of the audience.
    Since those boys are obviously center of story as well, then can easily be called protagonists.
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 08-19-2007 at 11:13 PM.

  3. #43
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Aiya aiya, no matter how hard and how much proof I bring up, you will always consider Eri the main character because you already decided yourself and made too many assumptions on this issue that has clouded your judgement.

    How is this related to our discussion about Harima's character development and Flag's place as one of main stories in SR?
    You are backing away from this which is a good sign to me =). But it's related because you put an emphasis in your beginning arguments that Eri made Harima open his heart unlike anyone else and that is proof her being the protagonist and main character.

    Yes, Harima knew all along that Tenma likes him, but his reactions to Karasuma are always different. In Curry episode you mentioned (chapter 33) Harima reacts at Tenma's tears like any normal alfa male - he attacke Karauma who just made "Harima's girl" cry. In biorthday incident situation is already different - Harima notices taht Tenma is not energetic and goes to Karasuma and, instead of attacking him like he did in chapter 33, he tells him to go to Tenma's party. See the difference? In latest chapter Harima makes even more, looking at how the situation is different now: for Harima Karasuma's departure is a big chance to take Tenma so it is complitely illogical for him (typical alfa male) to miss this chance - but he not thinking of himself, starts to think about Tenma's feelings. Second stage of development.
    Once again, the emphasis is on Tenma's feeling in Chapter 33. How is that any different than chapter 237. You neglect this point. And your logic is a little faulty. The first instance, Karasuma made Tenma cry. The second instance, Karasuma absence made Tenma lonely. There is a difference and Harima in both situation reacted differently. In the second instance, it wasn't Karasuma fault that Tenma was lonely because he was busy working, but Harima did not lash out because of this but helped Karasuma by uniting him with Tenma. But in both instances, Harima is focusing on Tenma's feeling. And in Chapter 237, it is the same. All three instances show that Harima is still the same when it comes to caring for Tenma and that's wanting her not to cry and wanting her to be happy. Once again, you have a very weak point for Harima's character development.

    That great changed occured in, like, volume 2. Also, did it require character developemnt for Tenma? I did not notice any. Yes, it was a good example of relatioship developemnt, but not character development.
    I would remind you to put specifically which chapter the "great change" occured in. And again, you did not notice any because of the same condition that let's you not recognize Tohru as the main character because you are stubborn to this. Try chapter 120, where Tenma, who naturally is self-conscious of herself and of what Karasuma is thinking learns to let go a bit. And you don't think being shy in front of a guy and then being more comfortable with a guy is character development? Shyness comes from lack of confidence. With confidence comes CHARACTER. Again I think you are being stubborn cause in your mind Eri is already your main character.

    In volume one she gets to know that Karasuma is about to leave. Thats when she was placed in the position to think that.
    And yes, Tenma said it = she wrote her long letter that prevented him form going.
    I'm not stubborn I'll concede this point but it still doesn't dismiss Tenma from being the main character.

    Shrine also broke his tunnel vision of Tenma, making Harima think about girl other then Tenma while that girls wasn't even trying to make him think it.

    According to Yakumo, Harima's static feelings for Tenma are one of his basic personal characteristics. Changing of that = character developement.
    Shrine broke it temporarily. Harima is just a guy. Harima lost sight of Tenma for a brief time with Tae and a brief time with Yakumo(when he was writing that manga in the dark). Again this is overall change. Has his relatively static feelings for Tenma changed from Chapter 2 to Chapter 237.

    never said that Tohru is not protagonist, i said that she is protagonist not because of her being the motor of the story.
    \

    Yep, she is the protagonist and the main character and you brought her up as the Vol. 1 cover as a bad example of non-protagonist in Vol. 1s. So you are backtracking and Kyo and Yuki are important characters but they are not the main protagonist and character, that belongs to Tohru.

    I was not arguing about Manaka being main or not main character. Of couse he is, he, aftre all, gets pretty much of development. I was countering your point about Tenma being main character because her story will be finished even if Harima's story finishes earlier. For that i posted Mikoto as an example of character that is far from being main and that will surely have her story finished by the end of the manga.
    You brought Ichigo up as a reason why endings can switch from main characters who were built at the beginning (supposively Aya to Nishino) but the point (and you admited it) is that Manaka is the main character and whether or chose Aya or Nishino didin't discount that (or Satsuki).

    From Wiki's article we can see that a requirment to move the story to fill the certain definition exists for antogonist and dynamic character, not for protogonist. That, of course, doesn't mean that being protagonist one can't move the story. It also means that you do not have to move it to be one.

    Reread Wiki's article, it is clearly said there that protagonist can be different depending on genre. It is obvious from an example with 19th century love novels. It is also easily understandeble, since in different genres focus of story is different - in detective we are interested in crimes and how they would be solved by detective - main character. To solve crimes he simply doesn't need any charcter developement. Romance genre is different, since characters are made to overcome not only obstacles from outside, but from inside as well, which makes them change.
    If you take everything in context from Wiki as canon then you will take this canon as well =):

    "Tenma is the female protagonist who has a crush on Oji Karasuma. She is short, undeveloped and childish for her age. She often is mistaken as being younger than her classmates and her younger sister Yakumo. One of her obvious physical features are the little pigtails in her hair, which often wiggle if she is excited. She is also dense, slow, unreliable and often misunderstands otherwise obvious situations. Despite her negative qualities Tenma is good-natured and friendly." - Wikipedia

    But let's dissect your statement about your definition of protagonist that you learned from Wiki:

    "Similarly, in much "formula fiction" (as critic John Cawelti calls it), the protagonist will remain essentially unaltered for the duration of the story; no value judgement need be implied by an author's use of either type of protagonist"

    "In popular culture, formula fiction is literature in which the storylines and plots have been reused to the extent that the narratives are predictable. It is similar to genre fiction, which identifies a number of specific settings that are frequently reused"

    Hmm, specific settings that are frequently reused. I wonder what setting School Rumble frequently uses as the narrative. And I wonder what predictable narratives are being reused (*cough* misunderstandings *cough*.

    I never read Ouran so my comments on it will be based only on information you just provided. Haruhi here looks like dynamic character, while those boys who have supposedly recieved developmet are protagonists. I'll quote Wiki for you to explain how a characetr may be a focus os the story and not be protagonist at the same time:
    Aiya aiya. Haruhi is without a doubt the main character. There is really no debating that. Again you define protagonist as the character receiving character development and that's not the definition.

    Since those boys are obviously center of story as well, then can easily be called protagonists.
    heh, funny you make that statement without reading the book (it just makes you seem like you will say anything to make Eri the main character in your eyes). No, Haruhi is without a doubt (without a doubt, let me make it clear) the main character and protagonist. Without a doubt.

    Here is the definition:

    Protagonist: 1 a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or story)

    It doesn't list any requirements he/she/they have to meet. This is just straight from their dictionary. A protagonist is who the author wants it to be, how he wanted that person to go through the story he is about to tell. She/he/they can be static (or dynamic) and she/he/they can go through character development and learn a lesson (or they can't). They are not refined to your specifications of what a protagonist is (just because you want Eri to be the protagonist and main character you already developed your own requirements that meet her standards). Again, they are who the author wants it to be (hm, I wonder who KJ wrote specifically as the main character) and how he wanted that person to go through the story he is about the tell. And if you look at the character card (undeniable proof), the volume summaries 1-6(which list Tenma's story as the main focus) and if you let go of your presumptions of what a protagonist is then you will realize that you have very little grounds to base your argument upon, except presumptions and beliefs.

    Again, I can't prove to you that the Earth revolves around the Sun. If I show you undeniable proof (character card) and you don't believe it then that's your belief. And no one can change that. It doesn't make it true though.

  4. #44
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Aiya aiya, no matter how hard and how much proof I bring up, you will always consider Eri the main character because you already decided yourself and made too many assumptions on this issue that has clouded your judgement
    No matter how much I post, you still refuse to read it. Thats unfortunate


    You are backing away from this which is a good sign to me =). But it's related because you put an emphasis in your beginning arguments that Eri made Harima open his heart unlike anyone else and that is proof her being the protagonist and main character.
    Were you even reading my posts about difference between opening towards Eri and Yakumo?

    Once again, the emphasis is on Tenma's feeling in Chapter 33. How is that any different than chapter 237.
    If you are talking about Teanm's feelings then they are obviously still the same. The thing is i never told you that they changed.

    You neglect this point. And your logic is a little faulty. The first instance, Karasuma made Tenma cry. The second instance, Karasuma absence made Tenma lonely. There is a difference and Harima in both situation reacted differently. In the second instance, it wasn't Karasuma fault that Tenma was lonely because he was busy working, but Harima did not lash out because of this but helped Karasuma by uniting him with Tenma. But in both instances, Harima is focusing on Tenma's feeling. And in Chapter 237, it is the same. All three instances show that Harima is still the same when it comes to caring for Tenma and that's wanting her not to cry and wanting her to be happy. Once again, you have a very weak point for Harima's character development.
    Sigh, were you reading what i posted? OK, I'll say it once more: Harima's reactin in istance 1 and 2 is different. As for instance three, just reread my previous post. Everything is in there.

    I would remind you to put specifically which chapter the "great change" occured in.
    Try chapter 24.

    Try chapter 120, where Tenma, who naturally is self-conscious of herself and of what Karasuma is thinking learns to let go a bit.
    Well, in that chapter Tenma eats half of cake to make it as if it was Karasuma's cake.... How is that learing to let go a bit? Maybe you meant different chapter?

    And you don't think being shy in front of a guy and then being more comfortable with a guy is character development? Shyness comes from lack of confidence. With confidence comes CHARACTER. Again I think you are being stubborn cause in your mind Eri is already your main character.
    It certanly is characetr development. But this happened in volume 2 - and yeah, in that volume Tenma can be called protagonist, while Eri still cannot. Later Tenma recieved no more development (and stoped being protagonist), while Eri got plenty of it and became protagonist. This is the basis of theory that i support - about KJ changing his plans about main characters.

    And again, you did not notice any because of the same condition that let's you not recognize Tohru as the main character because you are stubborn to this.
    Please, quote my previouse post to show me were exactly is the place were i said that Tohru is not protagonist?

    I'm not stubborn I'll concede this point but it still doesn't dismiss Tenma from being the main character.
    I'm gald.

    Shrine broke it temporarily.
    It's true. But it did. And it leaved it's effect, making Harima little by little change his opinion about Eri. WHich in the end led to rejection episode.

    Harima is just a guy. Harima lost sight of Tenma for a brief time with Tae and a brief time with Yakumo(when he was writing that manga in the dark). Again this is overall change.
    BUt it never led to him missing school aftrewords out of embarassment (it is about how he skipped school after his rejection was rejected).

    Has his relatively static feelings for Tenma changed from Chapter 2 to Chapter 237.
    No, his feelings for Tenma are the same. I do not remember ever disagreeing with that.

    So you are backtracking and Kyo and Yuki are important characters but they are not the main protagonist and character, that belongs to Tohru.
    How do you prove that? Having in mind that "motor of story" thing do not work for reasons expalined in my previous posts.

    You brought Ichigo up as a reason why endings can switch from main characters who were built at the beginning (supposively Aya to Nishino) but the point (and you admited it) is that Manaka is the main character and whether or chose Aya or Nishino didin't discount that (or Satsuki).
    Yes, he is. So what? He is not the only protagonist there, after all.

    If you take everything in context from Wiki as canon then you will take this canon as well =):
    Please, reread my first post. There i said that I take into account only article called "Protagonist" for reasons explained in that post. I never said that I think of wiki as of ultimate info source. If you have complaints about quality of that article then please post them here.

    But let's dissect your statement about your definition of protagonist that you learned from Wiki:

    "Similarly, in much "formula fiction" (as critic John Cawelti calls it), the protagonist will remain essentially unaltered for the duration of the story; no value judgement need be implied by an author's use of either type of protagonist"

    "In popular culture, formula fiction is literature in which the storylines and plots have been reused to the extent that the narratives are predictable. It is similar to genre fiction, which identifies a number of specific settings that are frequently reused"

    Hmm, specific settings that are frequently reused. I wonder what setting School Rumble frequently uses as the narrative. And I wonder what predictable narratives are being reused (*cough* misunderstandings *cough*.
    I wonder if you have ever read my first post in this thread. If you did then you would know that I already explained there why it is incorrect to think of SR as of somthing typical enough for its' genre to be refered to as formula fiction.

    Aiya aiya. Haruhi is without a doubt the main character. There is really no debating that. Again you define protagonist as the character receiving character development and that's not the definition. heh, funny you make that statement without reading the book (it just makes you seem like you will say anything to make Eri the main character in your eyes). No, Haruhi is without a doubt (without a doubt, let me make it clear) the main character and protagonist. Without a doubt.
    Tomorrow I will read Ouran (as much of it as my free time will let me to) and will tell you my thoughts on this.

    Here is the definition:

    Protagonist: 1 a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or story)
    The problem with general dictionaries like the one you use is that they tend to simplify everything. To prove it lets look at difinition of "protein" in the same dictionary:

    Protein
    1 : any of various naturally occurring extremely complex substances that consist of amino-acid residues joined by peptide bonds, contain the elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, usually sulfur, and occasionally other elements (as phosphorus or iron), and include many essential biological compounds (as enzymes, hormones, or antibodies)
    2 : the total nitrogenous material in plant or animal substances

    From this difinition it is obvious that, for example, homoglobine, can't be called a peptide, since it's very important part - gem - is not connected with 4 peptide helixes with peptide bonds. Since from that definition it is clear that only peptide bonds can be seen in proteins, hemoglobine, that works thanks to other kinds of bonds, can't be called protein. Moreover, this definition is a definition of only 1st conformational form of protein, since other conformational forms have otehr types of bonds in them as well.

    As you see, a definition given in that dictionary is way too simple for us to get what we are talking about. The best way to get good definition is to either look in encyclopedia, like Wiki, or in special dictionary, that is dedicated to a question you are interested in.

  5. #45
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Were you even reading my posts about difference between opening towards Eri and Yakumo?
    Yes, you said Eri had a harder time getting Harima to open up therefor she is special. I don't think that's the case. She just has a harder time than Yakumo. Yakumo is not Harima little sister so your inclination that Eri has made Harima open his heart up more than anyone is false.

    Sigh, were you reading what i posted? OK, I'll say it once more: Harima's reactin in istance 1 and 2 is different. As for instance three, just reread my previous post. Everything is in there.
    Are you even reading my post? You are trying to prove how Harima changed, not how his reaction changed. Again how has Harima change in instance 1 or 2? You haven't proved it. Both is emphasized on how Harima cares for Tenma feeling and that hasn't changed.

    Well, in that chapter Tenma eats half of cake to make it as if it was Karasuma's cake.... How is that learing to let go a bit? Maybe you meant different chapter?
    Read the end of the chapter. Where she talks with Karasuma.

    [QUOTE]It certanly is characetr development. But this happened in volume 2 - and yeah, in that volume Tenma can be called protagonist, while Eri still cannot. Later Tenma recieved no more development (and stoped being protagonist), while Eri got plenty of it and became protagonist. This is the basis of theory that i support - about KJ changing his plans about main characters.[/QUOTE

    Chapter 237 and the latest chapter wouldn't support that statement. Again you confused more or no more development as the basis for being the protagonist. You still have no idea what a protagonist means. I think you need to really read more mangas/book.

    It's true. But it did. And it leaved it's effect, making Harima little by little change his opinion about Eri. WHich in the end led to rejection episode.
    Again, character development. Prove character development in Harima. There is no doubt the chemistry of Harima/Eri changed and I'm not arguing that. But how has HARIMA changed. Harima. How has he changed personality, character wise. The shrine isn't proof because it didn't change Harima permanently.

    Please, quote my previouse post to show me were exactly is the place were i said that Tohru is not protagonist?
    You argued that Kyo and Yuki are protagonist as well. This can be since Tohru, is without a doubt, the protagonist.

    BUt it never led to him missing school aftrewords out of embarassment (it is about how he skipped school after his rejection was rejected).
    You claim that Harima feeling never change for Tenma, in 237, but at the same time you imply by leaving the school he cares for Eri. I think there faulty logic that him leaving school because of lost of pride or reputation or how he thinks Tenma will view him has not relatively changed since the beginning. Actually leaving school is something Harima has done and will frequently do, so CHARACTER-wise that hasn't changed.

    How do you prove that? Having in mind that "motor of story" thing do not work for reasons expalined in my previous posts.
    Ask any die-hard furaba fan (my sister being one of them). Look at any post, read any manga summary of furaba, any analysis of furaba, any analysis of shoujo-harem manga and you will find it quite clear that without a doubt, without a doubt, Tohru is the sole and main protagonist. The fact that this stifles you and the fact that you protect it to help it pander off Eri as the main character is very desperate.

    Yes, he is. So what? He is not the only protagonist there, after all.
    Sigh, again, I think you do not know what a protagonist is. Manaka is the SOLE protagonist in Ichigo 100&#37;. Read above and do the same.

    Please, reread my first post. There i said that I take into account only article called "Protagonist" for reasons explained in that post. I never said that I think of wiki as of ultimate info source. If you have complaints about quality of that article then please post them here.
    Since the basis of your arguement is on a wiki post then you have no basis for argument if your own "source" claims that Tenma is the protagonist. Isn't that ironic that your own source for protagonist that you argue Tenma against being, claims that she is the female protagonist of SR? LOL, I find it ironic.

    I wonder if you have ever read my first post in this thread. If you did then you would know that I already explained there why it is incorrect to think of SR as of somthing typical enough for its' genre to be refered to as formula fiction.
    I read it and you made a lot of assumptions. First you make the assumption that "formula fiction" is the only way a static character can exist as the protagonist. FALSE. Second, you make the assumption that SR can not exist as a "formula fiction". False. Again, you did not defend or argue against any of my claims and it making your case worse and worse.

    Tomorrow I will read Ouran (as much of it as my free time will let me to) and will tell you my thoughts on this.
    Ok, but I bet dollar-to-donuts you would think the boys are the main protagonist as well (like you did in Furaba), but Haruhi is without a doubt the main protagonist.

    The problem with general dictionaries like the one you use is that they tend to simplify everything. To prove it lets look at difinition of "protein" in the same dictionary:

    Protein
    1 : any of various naturally occurring extremely complex substances that consist of amino-acid residues joined by peptide bonds, contain the elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, usually sulfur, and occasionally other elements (as phosphorus or iron), and include many essential biological compounds (as enzymes, hormones, or antibodies)
    2 : the total nitrogenous material in plant or animal substances

    From this difinition it is obvious that, for example, homoglobine, can't be called a peptide, since it's very important part - gem - is not connected with 4 peptide helixes with peptide bonds. Since from that definition it is clear that only peptide bonds can be seen in proteins, hemoglobine, that works thanks to other kinds of bonds, can't be called protein. Moreover, this definition is a definition of only 1st conformational form of protein, since other conformational forms have otehr types of bonds in them as well.

    As you see, a definition given in that dictionary is way too simple for us to get what we are talking about. The best way to get good definition is to either look in encyclopedia, like Wiki, or in special dictionary, that is dedicated to a question you are interested in.
    The problem between comparing protein and protagonist is one can be scientifically defined and the other has to be interpreted. Another problem is you define the word protagonist (as it relates to SR) too narrowly so that it only fits your belief and your wishful thinking.

    Again, TENMA CHARACTER CARD. This should of all been over right then. If not, MANGA SUMMARIES FROM VOL. 1-6. That is ABSOLUTE canon to the fact that True Oudou/Oudou is the main storyline(Flag/Onigiri is important but it's brought on almost to antagonize the original storyline and branch out on to themselves). If not then, Vol. 1 manga cover. I can not argue against you if you neglect absolute canon.
    Last edited by aulzon; 08-20-2007 at 04:41 PM.

  6. #46
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yes, you said Eri had a harder time getting Harima to open up therefor she is special. I don't think that's the case. She just has a harder time than Yakumo. Yakumo is not Harima little sister so your inclination that Eri has made Harima open his heart up more than anyone is false.
    It's not Eri who had harder time, since she never even intentioned to make Harima open his heart. It's Harima who has problems with socialising. It is not question of who will open Harima easier, it's a question of being or not being able to be frank towards generaly unfriendly person.

    Are you even reading my post? You are trying to prove how Harima changed, not how his reaction changed. Again how has Harima change in instance 1 or 2? You haven't proved it. Both is emphasized on how Harima cares for Tenma feeling and that hasn't changed.
    The fast that reaction changed means that Harima in the second instanse was able to surpress his alfa-male instincts, that were working in instanse 1 (to defend your girl), and was able to act as a grown up. Which means that he has developed.

    Read the end of the chapter. Where she talks with Karasuma.
    And how it is letting go?

    Again, character development. Prove character development in Harima. There is no doubt the chemistry of Harima/Eri changed and I'm not arguing that. But how has HARIMA changed. Harima. How has he changed personality, character wise. The shrine isn't proof because it didn't change Harima permanently.
    The basic Harima's characetristic is that he can see only one girl as a girl. That one changed.

    You argued that Kyo and Yuki are protagonist as well. This can be since Tohru, is without a doubt, the protagonist.
    I still demend a qoute where I'm saying that Tohru is not protagonist.

    You claim that Harima feeling never change for Tenma, in 237, but at the same time you imply by leaving the school he cares for Eri. I think there faulty logic that him leaving school because of lost of pride or reputation or how he thinks Tenma will view him has not relatively changed since the beginning. Actually leaving school is something Harima has done and will frequently do, so CHARACTER-wise that hasn't changed.
    This time it is not lost pride or fear of Tenma's anger (since nobody exept him and Eri even knows about this episode). It's because he is embarrased to face Eri. Which means that his view of her changed which mean that his tunnel view is broken which leads to conclusion that Tenma is not the only girl in the world for him anymore.

    Ask any die-hard furaba fan (my sister being one of them). Look at any post, read any manga summary of furaba, any analysis of furaba, any analysis of shoujo-harem manga and you will find it quite clear that without a doubt, without a doubt, Tohru is the sole and main protagonist. The fact that this stifles you and the fact that you protect it to help it pander off Eri as the main character is very desperate.
    OK, that simply means that you will have no problem proving it to me here. Also, what is the difference between main and other protagonists? I don't see any.

    Sigh, again, I think you do not know what a protagonist is. Manaka is the SOLE protagonist in Ichigo 100&#37;. Read above and do the same.
    What's the difference between sole protagonist and other protagonists?

    Since the basis of your arguement is on a wiki post then you have no basis for argument if your own "source" claims that Tenma is the protagonist. Isn't that ironic that your own source for protagonist that you argue Tenma against being, claims that she is the female protagonist of SR? LOL, I find it ironic.
    If you find that ironic that means that you are not aware of the fact that Wiki is written by different people. So the quaity of just one articloe doesn't prove that another one is as good.

    I read it and you made a lot of assumptions. First you make the assumption that "formula fiction" is the only way a static character can exist as the protagonist. FALSE. Second, you make the assumption that SR can not exist as a "formula fiction". False. Again, you did not defend or argue against any of my claims and it making your case worse and worse.
    Why is that false?

    Ok, but I bet dollar-to-donuts you would think the boys are the main protagonist as well (like you did in Furaba), but Haruhi is without a doubt the main protagonist.
    What is main protagonist?

    The problem between comparing protein and protagonist is one can be scientifically defined and the other has to be interpreted. Another problem is you define the word protagonist (as it relates to SR) too narrowly so that it only fits your belief and your wishful thinking.
    The problem is that any notion has it's own definition. And that those definitions must be given by specialists. I do not see how protein is easier to give defintition to then protagonist. After all, both are scientific terms, just from different sciences.

  7. #47
    eviscerator is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    The problem is that any notion has it's own definition. And that those definitions must be given by specialists. I do not see how protein is easier to give defintition to then protagonist. After all, both are scientific terms, just from different sciences.
    While I generally agree with your argument, I don't think this is true. The definition of protein is unquestionable because it's a physical object. You can see it, you know exactly what it does and what its properties are. A protagonist is a literary feature. You can't define a protagonist as well as you can define protein because a protagonist is a product of the mind, and every mind thinks differently.
    Here's one way to look at it. Your opinions on the definition of a protagonist differ from others like aulzon. So if you were to write a story, your story's protagonist would fit your definition of a protagonist. If aulzon writes a story, the protagonist will have traits that aulzon defines. But if both of you write an essay on protein, you'll pretty much be giving the same facts because protein doesn't change according to interpretation.
    You make your face a mask. A mask to hide your face. A face to hide the pain. A pain that eats your heart. A heart nobody knows.

  8. #48
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Were you even reading my posts about difference between opening towards Eri and Yakumo?
    Were you reading my rebuttal? Opening between Yakumo and Eri should be no different to a guy. The fact is Harima has been able to open up more to Yakumo. That's fact. That proves your original notion of Eri etc, etc.

    And how it is letting go?
    Tenma in herself is very self-conscious of what Karasuma thinks about her. When she ruined that cake thing she was panicking. After the chapter, more and more Tenma lets go of this self-consciousness infront of Tenma.

    The basic Harima's characetristic is that he can see only one girl as a girl. That one changed.
    Untrue. Tae. He let his guard down for a moment. That was in early volumes. Also how about when he first met Tenma (that was a loong time ago). He didn't had any feelings for Tenma then he still viewed her as a girl but that changed. The fact is Harima is still a guy no matter what. You haven't proven Harima changed CHARACTER WISE.

    I still demend a qoute where I'm saying that Tohru is not protagonist.
    Tohru is not the SOLE main protagonist. You argue that Kyo and Yuki are protagonist as well. This is not true. Again, Tohru is the SOLE main protagonist and character. Kyo and Yuki are important characters but the revolve around her. (This is what we call a reverse shoujo harem).

    This time it is not lost pride or fear of Tenma's anger (since nobody exept him and Eri even knows about this episode). It's because he is embarrased to face Eri. Which means that his view of her changed which mean that his tunnel view is broken which leads to conclusion that Tenma is not the only girl in the world for him anymore.
    No proof for this. Again, you are arguing a very muddled point here because you are arguing that Harima feeling has changed when in chapter 29, he cries over rejecting Tae. Does this mean he changed relatively to rejecting Eri (and then fell on his face in the process) in a much later episode. No, and has there been any signs that Harima viewed Eri in a romantic light, no. Wishful thinking.

    OK, that simply means that you will have no problem proving it to me here. Also, what is the difference between main and other protagonists? I don't see any.
    Ok. I'll take an example. Proving it to you, and making you understand it are two different things. But let's take Love Hina as an example. Keitaro, is without a doubt the main character and main protagonist. Although Naru is an important character and the probably adjacent female protagonist, she is NOT the main character and main protagonist. Although Motoko has her own chapters and are the protagonist of it, she is NOT the main character. And here is why.

    - It is Keitaro original storyline of getting into Tokyo U, that is the mian storyline. There is randomness but the main storyline of Keitaro getting into Tokyo U connects the story. This main story makes Keitaro the sole protagonist of Love Hina. Also if you add the rule of the shonen harem style manga, the one on the opposite end of the harem is usually the main character and protagonist. Add that and the manga summaries of Vol. 1-14.

    If you find that ironic that means that you are not aware of the fact that Wiki is written by different people. So the quaity of just one articloe doesn't prove that another one is as good.
    That's very double sided. Have you ever thought maybe the definition of protagonist is worser quality then pronouncing Tenma as main character (something definitive and can be seen by the many absolutely canonical proof). And again, you are deciding because it fits Eri.

    Why is that false?
    Because stories aren't limited. Wiki only gives some examples of types of protagonist and their uses in types of fiction (but doesn't say, this is how it's suppose to be and theres no other way). Authors aren't limited to that. Authors use their main protagonist any way they want to tell any story they want. This is called writing. Although many authors will repeat the same themes and character archetypes, they are not bound to it. And as far as SR being formula fiction. You argue that because its unpredictable. The article read predictable narrative. No one can guess how an author will turn things out in nearly any serial manga/show/comic. But the narrative is relatively predictable. How would you know that? Well, SR as a whole deals with a lot of misunderstandings, themes, motifs and settings. We can argue it has predictable narrative.

    What is main protagonist?
    The main protagonist is the main character or protagonist of the main storyline. There could be a lot of other storylines built around that main storyline but he/she/they will still be the main protagonist (s).


    The problem is that any notion has it's own definition. And that those definitions must be given by specialists. I do not see how protein is easier to give defintition to then protagonist. After all, both are scientific terms, just from different sciences.
    Wow, protagonist is a scientific term? .....
    I just don't know what to say there... I'll let you deal with that one.

    Again, ABSOLUTE CANON. Tenma storyline is the basis of the manga summaries from 1-6, character card on Vol. 4, and Vol. 1 front cover. You can't argue against absolute canon over rhetoric and wishful thinking.

  9. #49
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by auzlon
    Were you reading my rebuttal? Opening between Yakumo and Eri should be no different to a guy. The fact is Harima has been able to open up more to Yakumo. That's fact. That proves your original notion of Eri etc, etc.
    Trying to touch a turtle and a tiger is no different? Well, if for you so, I can't help you here...

    Tenma in herself is very self-conscious of what Karasuma thinks about her. When she ruined that cake thing she was panicking. After the chapter, more and more Tenma lets go of this self-consciousness infront of Tenma.
    You mean that Tenma gets to understand Karasuma less then before? Sorry, but i can hardly understand what you mean here.]

    Untrue. Tae. He let his guard down for a moment. That was in early volumes. Also how about when he first met Tenma (that was a loong time ago). He didn't had any feelings for Tenma then he still viewed her as a girl but that changed. The fact is Harima is still a guy no matter what. You haven't proven Harima changed CHARACTER WISE.
    He let his guard down because he was talking about his dream life with Tenma. And then Tae made certain moves on him. He understood what she wants (he is not an absolute idiot after all and it was sooo obvious) but he never stoped to think about Tenma at the moment. Now, what he is crying about? About impossibility of his dream come true or about Tae?

    He started to like Tenma before the begining of the manga. Time Machine chapter was a long ago flashback. His feelings are the same from the begining of manga.

    No proof for this. Again, you are arguing a very muddled point here because you are arguing that Harima feeling has changed when in chapter 29, he cries over rejecting Tae. Does this mean he changed relatively to rejecting Eri (and then fell on his face in the process) in a much later episode. No, and has there been any signs that Harima viewed Eri in a romantic light, no. Wishful thinking.
    Chapter 152. "Her personality is too different! Is she making moves on me or something?" She is defenceless right now. I'm not interested though".
    Firstly Harima thought that Eri is afraid of him making moves on her and got angry on that rich blonde, but then, when she complimented him he radically changed his view. An then this defenceless thing marking that he was considering her as girl. The difference between this episode and Tae episode is that Tae was making obvious moves while Eri was not. Sharing blanket =/= "please, fuck me" after all.

    Ok. I'll take an example. Proving it to you, and making you understand it are two different things. But let's take Love Hina as an example. Keitaro, is without a doubt the main character and main protagonist. Although Naru is an important character and the probably adjacent female protagonist, she is NOT the main character and main protagonist. Although Motoko has her own chapters and are the protagonist of it, she is NOT the main character. And here is why.

    - It is Keitaro original storyline of getting into Tokyo U, that is the mian storyline. There is randomness but the main storyline of Keitaro getting into Tokyo U connects the story. This main story makes Keitaro the sole protagonist of Love Hina. Also if you add the rule of the shonen harem style manga, the one on the opposite end of the harem is usually the main character and protagonist. Add that and the manga summaries of Vol. 1-14.
    The core of LH story is Keitaro's and Naru's childhood memory and promise to go to TU together. All the conflict revolves around this and all the girls who have chances with Keitaro are connected to this story, other are just one-sided lrelationships and have no chances. Of these chilhood girls Naru has the most development and screen time. She is, no doubt, protagonist. Just as Keitaru.

    Tohru is not the SOLE main protagonist. You argue that Kyo and Yuki are protagonist as well. This is not true. Again, Tohru is the SOLE main protagonist and character. Kyo and Yuki are important characters but the revolve around her. (This is what we call a reverse shoujo harem).
    The main story of FB is destrucion of curse. Tohru plays active part in it. Tohru gets development. Tohru is protagonist. Yuki is the reason Tohru entered the family. Yuki plays important role. Yuki is protagonist. Kyo is the reason for Tohru's development. Kyo plays important role. Kyo is protagonist.

    That's very double sided. Have you ever thought maybe the definition of protagonist is worser quality then pronouncing Tenma as main character (something definitive and can be seen by the many absolutely canonical proof). And again, you are deciding because it fits Eri.
    Unlike article, the main goal of which is to give definition, SR article is a simple description. Definitions are given by specialists. Descriptions are written by fans. It doesn't mean that the socond one is worser, but it does mean that it can be critisised easily. For example, I do not see where in the article it is proven that Tenma and Harima are protagonists. They are simply postulating it. Which is rather strange.

    No, I decided because it makes perfect sense.

    Because stories aren't limited. Wiki only gives some examples of types of protagonist and their uses in types of fiction (but doesn't say, this is how it's suppose to be and theres no other way). Authors aren't limited to that. Authors use their main protagonist any way they want to tell any story they want. This is called writing. Although many authors will repeat the same themes and character archetypes, they are not bound to it. And as far as SR being formula fiction. You argue that because its unpredictable. The article read predictable narrative. No one can guess how an author will turn things out in nearly any serial manga/show/comic. But the narrative is relatively predictable. How would you know that? Well, SR as a whole deals with a lot of misunderstandings, themes, motifs and settings. We can argue it has predictable narrative.
    What limit authors are readers. The thing is, it is not interesting to read a totally static story. Detective authors dealt with it using mysteries and thier solvation. Old love stories wrighters dealt with it using romantically filled action. Most of wrighters dealt with it by developing thier protagonists.

    If SR was formula fiction then it must have been labeled as harem manga with Harima as center of harem and all girls wanting to get him. And of course in the end he would be with Tenma.

    The main protagonist is the main character or protagonist of the main storyline. There could be a lot of other storylines built around that main storyline but he/she/they will still be the main protagonist (s).
    Thanks for explanation.

    Wow, protagonist is a scientific term? .....
    Ever heard of philology?
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 08-22-2007 at 12:57 AM.

  10. #50
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The problem between comparing protein and protagonist is one can be scientifically defined and the other has to be interpreted.
    It is absolutely essential for language for the words to be agreed upon; after all, people make all kinds of misunderstandings when they don’t use the agreed upon definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Flag/Onigiri is important but it's brought on almost to antagonize the original storyline and branch out on to themselves). If not then, Vol. 1 manga cover. I can not argue against you if you neglect absolute canon.
    If the main storyline is Tenma’s, then the main storyline is True Oudou. Neither Flag nor Onigiri interfere with that pairing, so both fail to antagonize the “main” storyline. The only one I see really doing so is Oudou.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Were you reading my rebuttal? Opening between Yakumo and Eri should be no different to a guy. The fact is Harima has been able to open up more to Yakumo. That's fact. That proves your original notion of Eri etc, etc.
    I notice you're still going on about Harima opening more to Yakumo than Eri, despite me pointing out that Yakumo knowing about Harima is mostly due to his transparency, rather than him confiding in her.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Tohru is not the SOLE main protagonist. Again, Tohru is the SOLE main protagonist and character.
    You seem to be contradicting yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Kyo and Yuki are important characters but the revolve around her.
    This is due to the story being told from Tohru’s perspective. The story being told from her perspective is one of the aspects of what makes her the protagonist. It’s what makes Scout the protagonist of To Kill a Mockingbird. And it’s why Eri is the protagonist in later volumes of School Rumble.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That's very double sided. Have you ever thought maybe the definition of protagonist is worser quality then pronouncing Tenma as main character (something definitive and can be seen by the many absolutely canonical proof). And again, you are deciding because it fits Eri.
    Considering that Wiki’s article matches everything my teachers taught me in school about protagonists, in addition to holding up to other definitions of the word I’ve encountered in more respectable sources, I doubt that they have screwed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Because stories aren't limited. Wiki only gives some examples of types of protagonist and their uses in types of fiction (but doesn't say, this is how it's suppose to be and theres no other way). Authors aren't limited to that. Authors use their main protagonist any way they want to tell any story they want. This is called writing. Although many authors will repeat the same themes and character archetypes, they are not bound to it.
    Stories aren’t limited...yet, they’re limited to one protagonist created near the beginning and are incapable of changing this? You’re stating authors have absolute power in one part of your post, yet denying that they do elsewhere. You appear to be contradicting yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Again, ABSOLUTE CANON. Tenma storyline is the basis of the manga summaries from 1-6, character card on Vol. 4, and Vol. 1 front cover. You can't argue against absolute canon over rhetoric and wishful thinking.
    Summaries aren't canon. The actual material they summarize is; try forming opinions by reading the source instead of abridged copies of it. Furthermore, you constantly forget that Kobayashi, in fact, ridicules Tenma’s role as the “main character” on that character card.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 
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