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  1. #31
    eviscerator is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    It may be the case. The only problem i have with Tenma being called real protagonist is her lack of character development.
    That's one of the main points, and it's a good point. I believe that you're correct in saying Kobayashi intended to have her as the absolutely main character. but I think he abandoned that idea in favour of a wider cast. As for her development, Tenma has developed, only very slightly. For example, Kobayashi added a few talents for her, like her skiing thing (Was that in the manga? Can't remember). Then again the skiing thing was pretty stupid.

    I suppose Tenma would be what people have been saying is a static character. That's not necessarily a bad thing. One way to look at it is that it not everybody matures at the same age, and Tenma is the embodiment of that. Compare that to, say, Yakumo, who is younger than Tenma but more mature. It's a personality thing. It would be unrealistic to say that everybody is developing at the same time when the cast is that wide. If you've got one main character then that character should be developed. It doesn't have to be that way when you have multiple main characters, as is the case here.
    You make your face a mask. A mask to hide your face. A face to hide the pain. A pain that eats your heart. A heart nobody knows.

  2. #32
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by eviscerator View Post
    As for her development, Tenma has developed, only very slightly. For example, Kobayashi added a few talents for her, like her skiing thing (Was that in the manga? Can't remember). Then again the skiing thing was pretty stupid.
    I don't think that we can say that adding this few talents can be called development. If we saw her before, when she couldn't sky, then saw her training and then saw a result which we were shown, we could have said that it is development. But, since we never saw her not being able to sky or traingin, but only saw a result that is a constant, we can't call it development. Just as Akira was never developed as a spy, she was just called one.

    I suppose Tenma would be what people have been saying is a static character. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
    Of course it is not a bad thing, it's just a characteristic of her character.

    One way to look at it is that it not everybody matures at the same age, and Tenma is the embodiment of that. Compare that to, say, Yakumo, who is younger than Tenma but more mature. It's a personality thing. It would be unrealistic to say that everybody is developing at the same time when the cast is that wide.
    Right.
    If you've got one main character then that character should be developed. It doesn't have to be that way when you have multiple main characters, as is the case here.
    In definition of protagonist it is say that one should recive character development to be called protagonist. Maybe I'm being to strict here, but Tenma, even being an important character whose actions influence plot development greatly, can't be called protagonist by that definition.

  3. #33
    strange_chameleon is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    In definition of protagonist it is say that one should recive character development to be called protagonist. Maybe I'm being to strict here, but Tenma, even being an important character whose actions influence plot development greatly, can't be called protagonist by that definition.
    I agree to that.

    Usually, doesn't the character that starts the story, end it?
    or something like that...

  4. #34
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    I agree to that.

    Usually, doesn't the character that starts the story, end it?
    or something like that...
    Usually yes. It happenes when the one to begin the story is the real protagonist, so obviously when his story finishes novel finishes as well, since his story was the main focus of the whole novel. There are exeptions though, when character who began the story steps aside and merely watchs the development later: "Steppenwolf" by Herman Hesse is an example of it. In it story starter merely introduced main character and then dissapeared. Also, there are cases when story starter is just for telling the story, like in "Great Gasby" that was mentioned above. Needless to say, in both cases such characters never recive any development. There are more examples of exeptions from the rule you just stated, but I won't mention any more of them, OK?

  5. #35
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Calling friend your "little sister" is a perfect reason to assume that you think of her as of your little sister.

    Of couse Harima would rather open his heart to Yakumo who he trusts then to Eri who he doesn't. Thats why the fact that he actually did open his heart to Eri is so meaningful.
    But that would still mean Harima would rather confide in Yakumo (who is not related to him) and call her his little sister. Remember, Harima doesn't view Yakumo literally as his little sister and saying Imouto-san is a term of endearment like someone saying Onee-chan or nii-chan or aniki to someone who is not related so this doesn't take away from the fact that Harima would rather confide in Yakumo than Eri. You think that if Harima would confide in Eri, that is the only important point. But the fact that Harima confided more in Yakumo counters this. And the little sister point would take nothing away from it again because they aren't related. Imouto-san, again, if you think of it literally then you would think, "hey its no big deal to tell your little sister this", but again this is a term of endearment and Yakumo was given this title as such.

    No, i said that i can't measure progress (meaning put progress rate with numdebrs like Flag=10 poits and so on) because I don't have a good method to do so.

    Yes, i can't say which one has better progress. I can just say that they both have it.
    Then again if you can't disprove Flag as lack of progress for Oudou, you can't disprove it as the main story as it was intentionally meant to be. (Read Vol. 1-6 manga summaries and it's clear KJ sets it up as the main storyline)

    By saying that Tenma is static I mean that her character development is static=she has no characetr development. Her relationship with Karasuma is deffinitely not static. Relationship development and character development are two different things.
    Again, you argue for Harima being the main character when he himself is very much the same as he is in the beginning. His relationship with Eri and Yakumo may have changed but he is very much the same guy so you are nulling your own statements with your own statements.

    Recomendation to read this two does not explain the difference between protagonist and secondary protagonist to me. Please make your explanation more clear.
    It means that sometimes authors will use two characters, that are not necessarily more important than the other as the main character to develop their main stories.

    Of course this view is biased, but this is not my view, it belongs to KJ - he expressed it through boys from her class: they were imagining thier female classmates in rather erotic positions and all failed to do so with Tnema, calling her "kid". This means that they can't see her as woman => this rate3 as main character doesn't speak about her lookings.
    -10, is a little over the line. Again, Tenma is an ordinary girl but by she is by no means ugly. If you look at all her friends (Akira, Mikoto, Eri) they are all more shonen friendly than Tenma but that's where her beauty comes through.
    KJ meant for her to be "special" and as such she is ignored by most male classmates besides interesting, Harima (who you and I would consider the male lead in SR) and Nara (who KJ scrapped as the male lead).

    - Lets take Furaba, cover of which has only Tohru, who hardly had any character developmetn and was more of a dynamic character that moved everyone around her, but doesn't have any of Souma fqamily members, who can easily be called protagoniosts (like Yuki and Kyo).
    - First three of you can easily be the products of KJ original plan that was supposedly changed lately. If Kawashita Mizuki can change her plans with Ichigo 100% changing main girl form Aya to Nishino, why KJ can't?
    -Unfortunately, I do not have any of manga summaries so i can't comment on this. If you can upload them I would be very grateful.
    Ah thanks for bringing up Furaba. You admit Tohru has hardly any character development but she is the main character and protagonist. Kyo and Yuki are both main characters but the main character is Tohru so that is a bad example.
    -The problem with Ichigo 100% from SR is that Manaka is the main character in a Harem situation. It was his decision who he was going to choose in the end: Aya, Nishiino, or Satsuki. And the end results don't change the fact that Manaka was the main character and Aya, Nishino and Satsuki were the girl characters that supported him in a harem style manga.



    It may be the case. The only problem i have with Tenma being called real protagonist is her lack of character development.
    Once again, you mistake character development with main character. Sherlock Holmes is the protagonist in most of his story yet he never seems to change. House of House MD rarely changes throughout the season. Sometimes an author will keep a character development static to continue the style of the story, while the rest of the characters develop around him.





  6. #36
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    But that would still mean Harima would rather confide in Yakumo (who is not related to him) and call her his little sister. Remember, Harima doesn't view Yakumo literally as his little sister and saying Imouto-san is a term of endearment like someone saying Onee-chan or nii-chan or aniki to someone who is not related so this doesn't take away from the fact that Harima would rather confide in Yakumo than Eri. You think that if Harima would confide in Eri, that is the only important point. But the fact that Harima confided more in Yakumo counters this. And the little sister point would take nothing away from it again because they aren't related. Imouto-san, again, if you think of it literally then you would think, "hey its no big deal to tell your little sister this", but again this is a term of endearment and Yakumo was given this title as such.
    Yes, I belive i already agreed with it - Harima trusts Yakumo more then Eri. But there is difference in being open towards Yakumo and towards Eri. The difference is that Eri is much more harsh then Yakumo, who will not say a word to you whatever you would be saying. It is much harder to open your soul to Eri than to Yakumo, thats why Harima easily talks to Yakumo and could hardly to it with Eri. The fact that Eri was able to help Harima overcome this barrier aka his fear to be laughed at/morally punched shows that Eri was able to help Harima to make one more step towards socialising, which Harima, being a deliquent totally lacked at the begining of manga => Eri triggered Harima's characer development. The fact that she was not the only one to help him develop doesn't cancel the importance of her help.

    Then again if you can't disprove Flag as lack of progress for Oudou, you can't disprove it as the main story as it was intentionally meant to be. (Read Vol. 1-6 manga summaries and it's clear KJ sets it up as the main storyline)
    I never said that Oudou role is not important. Even though it has no progress at all (aka "0" progress) and is different from TO and Flag that have thier progress (aka "+" progress) it is still important.

    Again, you argue for Harima being the main character when he himself is very much the same as he is in the beginning. His relationship with Eri and Yakumo may have changed but he is very much the same guy so you are nulling your own statements with your own statements.
    Harima has became more sociable, started to draw manga AND even started to care about Tenma more then about himself. Thats development.

    It means that sometimes authors will use two characters, that are not necessarily more important than the other as the main character to develop their main stories.
    It mean thst there can be several characters of equal importance that can be called protagonists.

    -10, is a little over the line. Again, Tenma is an ordinary girl but by she is by no means ugly. If you look at all her friends (Akira, Mikoto, Eri) they are all more shonen friendly than Tenma but that's where her beauty comes through.
    KJ meant for her to be "special" and as such she is ignored by most male classmates besides interesting, Harima (who you and I would consider the male lead in SR) and Nara (who KJ scrapped as the male lead).
    It was meant to be over the line, it's hyperbole after all.

    He deffinitely meant her to be special. Akira is special to, after all he himself is saying that in his interview. Special =/= protagonist.

    Ah thanks for bringing up Furaba. You admit Tohru has hardly any character development but she is the main character and protagonist. Kyo and Yuki are both main characters but the main character is Tohru so that is a bad example.
    -The problem with Ichigo 100% from SR is that Manaka is the main character in a Harem situation. It was his decision who he was going to choose in the end: Aya, Nishiino, or Satsuki. And the end results don't change the fact that Manaka was the main character and Aya, Nishino and Satsuki were the girl characters that supported him in a harem style manga.
    I was wrong about Tohru not having any developmet, I forgot about one serious matter. Tohru has character development and it is pretty big - to chase for her love and to be with Kyo she goes agains her mothers words (remember the last moments of her life and her words adressed to Kyu "I will never forgive you" - Kyo thought that Tohru's mother blames him for her death and thought of it as of hindrance that prevents him from getting together with Tohru), which was absolutely impossible in the begining of the manga.

    The example of one one protagonist being shown on cover while others are not present suggests that it is not necessary for a protagonist to be drawn at a cover to remain protagonist.

    In the end it is still Harima's choice who to take - Eri, Tae or Tenma or Itoko or whoever. And it is Tenma's choice who to take - Karasuma or Harima. And so on. Also, Manaka was not the only main character there, Aya nad Tsukasa were protagonists as well.

    Once again, you mistake character development with main character. Sherlock Holmes is the protagonist in most of his story yet he never seems to change. House of House MD rarely changes throughout the season. Sometimes an author will keep a character development static to continue the style of the story, while the rest of the characters develop around him.
    I can hardly view SR as a detective story (exept for chapter 200). There is one differentce between detective stories and romance stories that interfers with this example being used here. In detective stories character simply doesn't need any development to solve crimes, he is professional from the start after all. Here we have school romance, where main characters are teenagers and while the story goes on the grow up and develop. Character development is necessary for relationship to develop, because otherwise things would go smoothly from the very start. A good example here is Mikoto's relatioship with Asou that was destroyed by Mikoto's feelings for Hanai that never changed from the start and made the relationship impossible. For this one to progress Miko's love for Hanai sould die and that would be character development.

    Thanks for uploading!

  7. #37
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Yes, I belive i already agreed with it - Harima trusts Yakumo more then Eri. But there is difference in being open towards Yakumo and towards Eri. The difference is that Eri is much more harsh then Yakumo, who will not say a word to you whatever you would be saying. It is much harder to open your soul to Eri than to Yakumo, thats why Harima easily talks to Yakumo and could hardly to it with Eri. The fact that Eri was able to help Harima overcome this barrier aka his fear to be laughed at/morally punched shows that Eri was able to help Harima to make one more step towards socialising, which Harima, being a deliquent totally lacked at the begining of manga => Eri triggered Harima's characer development. The fact that she was not the only one to help him develop doesn't cancel the importance of her help.
    That would mean this statement that you made is false: "Eri made Harima open his heart beside her like he never did before with anyone.".

    And where did Eri trigger Harima character development? Who was the one that helped Harima realize why he made manga and to continue doing it. Who was the one enlightening Harima about how shallow his perception of falling in love is (manga-wise). And it still means that Harima trust is more open to Yakumo and not to Eri. Being enemies to friend, to somewhat unknown now (in the manga currently 237) doesn't constitute more of a relationship than being acquaintances to friends (the path that Yakumo took).

    I never said that Oudou role is not important. Even though it has no progress at all (aka "0" progress) and is different from TO and Flag that have thier progress (aka "+" progress) it is still important.
    Then the point is made clear, that Oudou and True Oudou, the original intended main storyline is still the main storyline.

    Harima has became more sociable, started to draw manga AND even started to care about Tenma more then about himself. Thats development.
    That's his view of relationships. Personality wise, Harima and Tenma are very similar to the beginning of the manga. Read chapter 2 and chapter 237 and you will not see a change in his overall attitude. Events may have happen but Tenma and Harima are relatively the same people romantically and personality wise. And Harima isn't much more sociable, maybe to Eri but he's been that way with any girl he has encountered (Mikoto, Tae, Yakumo). Remember, no one remembered his disappearance. And you can argue, Tenma who was much more reserved infront of a guy she liked is now more open to talking to Karasuma. Tenma could barely stand looking at Karasuma without getting really nervous but this initial shyness was chipped away.

    It mean thst there can be several characters of equal importance that can be called protagonists.
    Yes so it can be argued Harima and Tenma storyline which both intertwine in the beginning are both important to maintaining the manga.

    He deffinitely meant her to be special. Akira is special to, after all he himself is saying that in his interview. Special =/= protagonist.
    I never said special = protagonist, even if Tenma is the main character and it is written that she is. Tenma is just special. I can't imagine SR being without a clutzy, misunderstanding, but funny Tenma.

    The example of one one protagonist being shown on cover while others are not present suggests that it is not necessary for a protagonist to be drawn at a cover to remain protagonist.
    But Tohru is the main protagonist. She is the in the reverse-harem shoujo manga and she is the main protagonist and the central character, so that's why she is shown on Vol. 1. Remember Kyo and Yuki both revolve around her.

    In the end it is still Harima's choice who to take - Eri, Tae or Tenma or Itoko or whoever. And it is Tenma's choice who to take - Karasuma or Harima. And so on. Also, Manaka was not the only main character there, Aya nad Tsukasa were protagonists as well.
    Manaka was the main character. He was the one in the shonen harem and all the girls revolved around him. Each girl that was introduced as possible love interest revolved around him. And as far as Harima, it is his choice to make. If Harima does choose Eri, it doesn't discount the fact that Tenma would still be the main character until the main storyline resolves.

    I can hardly view SR as a detective story (exept for chapter 200). There is one differentce between detective stories and romance stories that interfers with this example being used here. In detective stories character simply doesn't need any development to solve crimes, he is professional from the start after all. Here we have school romance, where main characters are teenagers and while the story goes on the grow up and develop. Character development is necessary for relationship to develop, because otherwise things would go smoothly from the very start. A good example here is Mikoto's relatioship with Asou that was destroyed by Mikoto's feelings for Hanai that never changed from the start and made the relationship impossible. For this one to progress Miko's love for Hanai sould die and that would be character development.
    I wasn't arguing that SR is a detective story, just that sometimes author will use a protagonist that is relatively the same throughout the story to keep the style of the story intact but he develops the characters around the central character. The series that is similar to SR in randomness and slice of school life would probably be Azumanga. It's debatable that Chiyo is the main character but I'll use her. Chiyo doesn't change throughout the manga or anime much because without her innocence and niavety the show would lose it's consistency and humour. SR needs Tenma to stay relatively the same in order to maintain the consistency in SR.

    And again. I think any non-Eri fan or just anyone who stumbled onto SR without no preconceptions about it would take a look at these evidence;

    The main character card of Tenma
    Vol. 1 Cover.
    Vol. 1-6 Manga Summaries.

    And then judge who is the main character. It's pretty apparent.

  8. #38
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That would mean this statement that you made is false: "Eri made Harima open his heart beside her like he never did before with anyone.".
    OK, let me change it a bit: "Eri made Harima open his heart beside her more than he did before anyone else". The barrier to jump over was the highest ever, after all.
    And where did Eri trigger Harima character development?
    Shrine. Rejection of rejection.

    Who was the one that helped Harima realize why he made manga and to continue doing it. Who was the one enlightening Harima about how shallow his perception of falling in love is (manga-wise). And it still means that Harima trust is more open to Yakumo and not to Eri. Being enemies to friend, to somewhat unknown now (in the manga currently 237) doesn't constitute more of a relationship than being acquaintances to friends (the path that Yakumo took).
    How many times do I have to say that I agree that Harima trusts to Yakumo more then to Eri before you realise it? Also, this fact doesn't cancel character development that Harima recieved thanks to Eri.

    Then the point is made clear, that Oudou and True Oudou, the original intended main storyline is still the main storyline.
    You are forgeting about Flag again. We are going on circles on this one.

    That's his view of relationships. Personality wise, Harima and Tenma are very similar to the beginning of the manga. Read chapter 2 and chapter 237 and you will not see a change in his overall attitude. Events may have happen but Tenma and Harima are relatively the same people romantically and personality wise.<...>And you can argue, Tenma who was much more reserved infront of a guy she liked is now more open to talking to Karasuma. Tenma could barely stand looking at Karasuma without getting really nervous but this initial shyness was chipped away.
    What? His only view of relationship before now was "I must fight for Tenma with Karasuma" wgile knowing that Tenma fails to care about him and loves Karasuma instead. But now he is able to think about Tenma more then about himself. Is it not development, form selfishness to real caring? And Tenma exept for being able to talk to Karasuma (she is able since like second volume. Nothing changed from that time) haven't changed. Can she think about Karasuma more then about herself? Have she ever thought "Maybe this trip to USA is so important to Karasuma-kun, maybe I shouldn't stay on his way?" No, she never thought that. Unlike Harima.

    And Harima isn't much more sociable, maybe to Eri but he's been that way with any girl he has encountered (Mikoto, Tae, Yakumo). Remember, no one remembered his disappearance.
    It is his desire to be sociable that has changed. Before encourting Tenma he never ever wanted to be with class, he was satisfied as a deliquent. But once she appeared that changed. Even if noone notices him he still wants to be with everyone (its obvious from last chapter).

    Yes so it can be argued Harima and Tenma storyline which both intertwine in the beginning are both important to maintaining the manga.
    Of course they are both important.

    I never said special = protagonist, even if Tenma is the main character and it is written that she is. Tenma is just special. I can't imagine SR being without a clutzy, misunderstanding, but funny Tenma.
    Me too.

    But Tohru is the main protagonist. She is the in the reverse-harem shoujo manga and she is the main protagonist and the central character, so that's why she is shown on Vol. 1. Remember Kyo and Yuki both revolve around her.
    She is central characetr not because of haremness, but because she is acting like dynamic character that is moving the story. Note that to move the story is not the role of protagonist, while he, of course, can do that. Which means that she is not protagonist becase she moves the story.

    Manaka was the main character. He was the one in the shonen harem and all the girls revolved around him. Each girl that was introduced as possible love interest revolved around him. And as far as Harima, it is his choice to make. If Harima does choose Eri, it doesn't discount the fact that Tenma would still be the main character until the main storyline resolves.
    You just pointed out the difference between Ichigo 100&#37; and SR - one is harem and the other is not. It doesn't make Nishino or Aya any less of protagonists. Also, even if Harima takes Eri, Mikoto's love story will still be resolved. Just as Tenma's. This doesn't make either of them main characters.

    I wasn't arguing that SR is a detective story, just that sometimes author will use a protagonist that is relatively the same throughout the story to keep the style of the story intact but he develops the characters around the central character. The series that is similar to SR in randomness and slice of school life would probably be Azumanga. It's debatable that Chiyo is the main character but I'll use her. Chiyo doesn't change throughout the manga or anime much because without her innocence and niavety the show would lose it's consistency and humour. SR needs Tenma to stay relatively the same in order to maintain the consistency in SR.
    When i said that i hardly see SR as detective story I meant that you should find examples from the same genres since the laws of story development are different in different genres. Same goes for Azumanga, that, despite being totally amazing, that has no romance at all. So we can't compare them.

    And again. I think any non-Eri fan or just anyone who stumbled onto SR without no preconceptions about it would take a look at these evidence;

    The main character card of Tenma
    Vol. 1 Cover.
    Vol. 1-6 Manga Summaries.

    And then judge who is the main character. It's pretty apparent.
    I recall answering this somewhere already... I wonder where.

  9. #39
    ratzuei is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Well in the character development thing, i think that JK wanted to develop the relationships between the characters more than the characters themselves(I think its because of his own style to focus in several characters rather than one or two). If you can remember at the beginning Tenma practically didnt know that harima existed and later on they have became very good friends, and the same it could be said to harima&#180;s view on karasuma
    Last edited by ratzuei; 08-19-2007 at 02:19 PM.

  10. #40
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    OK, let me change it a bit: "Eri made Harima open his heart beside her more than he did before anyone else". The barrier to jump over was the highest ever, after all.
    Um, I'll put it in context you can understand. Say you had two friends you met at the same time, of the opposite sex. One is a stranger and then becomes your friend. You quickly can confide in this friend, tell her your emotions and aspirations. The other is a stranger, who appears to be an enemy but then you find out is a friend but now you wonder if she really is your enemy again and you find it more difficult to confide in her than your first friend. Now, would you view your second friend as more important than your first friend or what? We are talking from Harima's prospect, not Eri. You should change it to, "Yakumo made Harima open his heart more than anyone else did."


    What? His only view of relationship before now was "I must fight for Tenma with Karasuma" wgile knowing that Tenma fails to care about him and loves Karasuma instead. But now he is able to think about Tenma more then about himself. Is it not development, form selfishness to real caring? And Tenma exept for being able to talk to Karasuma (she is able since like second volume. Nothing changed from that time) haven't changed. Can she think about Karasuma more then about herself? Have she ever thought "Maybe this trip to USA is so important to Karasuma-kun, maybe I shouldn't stay on his way?" No, she never thought that. Unlike Harima.
    Selfishness to real caring, it's always apparent to Harima that Tenma likes Karasuma and he has done little to change this. Remember the curry incident at the beginning of the manga and the birthday incident. Harima hasn't change in that aspect. And Tenma is has opened up to Karasuma, remember when she was drawing his picture she could barely look at him and now she can talk to him and hang out with him. That's a big difference. And Tenma hasn't been placed in a position where we can judge if she thinks that. Has Tenma ever said, no Karasuma shouldn't go to USA? Again you are prejudging this matter and I think it has to do with your -10 on her attractiveness scale. If she looked like Eri you might think otherwise.

    Shrine. Rejection of rejection.
    Shrine just proves that hes a tough guy on the outside but a nice guy in the middle. Something alluded to, when he rescued Tenma a loong time ago. So he hasn't change in that aspect. Rejection of rejection, explain how that changed his character. He was still prone to falling because of his pride like he did in early manga. Again you have to give me something that changed between Chapter 2 and Chapter 237. And it has to show that his personality changed more than Tenma.

    It is his desire to be sociable that has changed. Before encourting Tenma he never ever wanted to be with class, he was satisfied as a deliquent. But once she appeared that changed. Even if noone notices him he still wants to be with everyone (its obvious from last chapter).
    Again that hasn't changed in the beginning. The very second chapter of the series, we have Harima, who doesn't normally care about classes or grade wanting not to be held back so he can be with Tenma. Later we have Harima wanting to go to the beach because of Tenma. And now the previous chapter. You haven't given any proof of him changing from the beginning in a way that differs his change from Tenma.

    She is central characetr not because of haremness, but because she is acting like dynamic character that is moving the story. Note that to move the story is not the role of protagonist, while he, of course, can do that. Which means that she is not protagonist becase she moves the story.
    If you do not believe Tohru is the protagonist and main character than I can not help you here. There is without a doubt, Tohru is the main character and protagonist of Fruits Basket. And you argue that the role of a protagonist is not to move the story but you are wrong here. I think you are confused about what the protagonist is. He/she can be static (but can be dynamic), they can move the plot (or can be a simple observer) and he/she can be two or more people (left to interpretation, unless the author specifies).

    You just pointed out the difference between Ichigo 100% and SR - one is harem and the other is not. It doesn't make Nishino or Aya any less of protagonists. Also, even if Harima takes Eri, Mikoto's love story will still be resolved. Just as Tenma's. This doesn't make either of them main characters.
    Again but you miss the point. Manaka, is without a doubt the main character and protagonist of Ichigo 100%. All the girl characters revolve around him and his choices. If you can not see that Manaka is the protagonist and main character of Ichigo 100%, I can not help you here.

    When i said that i hardly see SR as detective story I meant that you should find examples from the same genres since the laws of story development are different in different genres. Same goes for Azumanga, that, despite being totally amazing, that has no romance at all. So we can't compare them.
    Even if they are from different genres, a protagonist between two genres and it's definition doesn't change. Again, I think you do not understand what a protagonist is and it doesn't have to fit any definition and the definition doesn't change via genre. But since the emphasis is on me to find proof to show you, Haruhi from Ouran High School Host Club (and yes, Haruhi is without a doubt the protagonist of Ouran). Haruhi, although she is altered physically, (sometimes between girl, guy and in the beginning a messy nerdy tomboy). Haruhi never changes her personality (much like Tenma). She is still opinionated, acts tomboyish, and very coolheaded . Even when Tamaki and Hikaru fall in love with her she is still the same, oblivious to them and cares little for romance. Again her being a somewhat static character, keeps Ouran very much the same in style. If she were to become very serious and shy, it would ruin the consistency of the manga. Tamaki can change and Hikaru grow to become more independent from his twin but Haruhi will still be the main character.


    I recall answering this somewhere already... I wonder where.
    Yep, I'll keep using it because this discussion should of been ended a long time ago when I showed you guys the picture of Tenma being the main character. Again you are arguing with KJ here, not me.

 

 
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