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  1. #21
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    One of the strengths of School Rumble, in my opinion, is that it doesn't seem to be tied down by a main character. Who the main character seems to change all the time. Tenma lives up to her job description in the first two volumes, but as her disapperances from the storyline increase, she stops fitting the bill. After the second volume, Harima fits the description better than Tenma does for awhile. Yet, as Harima spends more time with Eri (and readers spend more time with Eri's thoughts and perspective) and Eri develops more than the rest of the cast, she becomes the main character. But, her screen time has declined in the last twenty chapters and main character does not describe her, at the moment. So, who will be the main protagonist for the end game? Either Tenma or Harima need to start undergoing some serious changes for the story to have a resolution, and which one does will likely be the protagonist for the last story arc.
    I would say it like that - temprorary focuses of the story change all the time (here we have all littel arcs you have described) but protagonists (permanent focuses of the story who's development makes story move) are always the same.

    P.S. I hope this post leaved the impression that i mainly agreed with you, while just a bit correcting you.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yet you argued that Eri is the main character. And this would mean that you think your opinion would be more canon than say KJ writing main character underneath Tenma and secondary protagonist for Harima.
    In the "terminology" I used above in this post main character will be temp focus of the story, protagonist = perm focus. Eri is obviously the second. I belive Ultra meant the same.

    Also, I have answered to you previous post at the previous page.
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 08-18-2007 at 01:35 PM.

  2. #22
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Protagonist is not something that lives for only one chapter - he is the main focus of the story. MAIN. Even if there is a chapter focused on Yuki in SR she is still not protagonist.
    Only the main protagonist is the main focus of the story. Most stories, including School Rumble, have far more than one protagonist. So, Yuuki can be the protagonist for two or so chapters, though it won't make her the main protagonist of the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yet you argued that Eri is the main character.
    I argued that Eri is the main character because she's been portrayed as one more so than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again, it's overshadowed because you think it is but that's your perception. Ever think maybe Eri was the main antagonist and why her storyline was introduced was to be an unprogressive to Tenma-Harima . And yet still you admit that the two storylines are the driving narrative of School Rumble but yet you still think Eri is the main character.
    Eri's not the antagonist because the perspective is told from her side, and it's always her that ends up receiving development as a result of being antagonized. This could change, but I doubt it will considering Eri remained the protagonist even when she had a feud with Tenma.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I was correcting reinard that all protagonist don't have to be static or progressive but they are who they are. One major example would be Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird. He stays static throughout the events, unchanging in his way but he is still the protagonist. Scout changes about her philosophies to judge people and progresses as a character throughout the book but Atticus is still the main character because Atticus has the main storyline.
    Scout is the protagonist of To Kill a Mockingbird. Believe it or not, characters don't have to be the driving force of the plot to be main characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    I would say it like that - temprorary focuses of the story change all the time (here we have all littel arcs you have described) but protagonists (permanent focuses of the story who's development makes story move) are always the same.
    I disagree a bit here, about protagonists being characters whose focus makes the story move. I view protagonists as characters that are moved the most by the story and receive the most focus, as a result. Like Scout, the main character in To Kill a Mockingbird.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #23
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Firstly, Tenma never developed at all. Neither with Harima, nor with Karasuma.
    Strange, wasn't she hanging out more with Karasuma as time passes by.

    Secondly, about Harima's development in different factions. I dare not to measure it, since I do not know the correct method to measure development, I can just show if developmetn was there or not. So: both Oudou and Flag made Harima change. Examples: The wish to be with Tenma made Harima to draw manga. Eri made Harima open his heart beside her like he never did before with anyone.
    Hmm, you are sounding more like an Eri homer. Who had Harima open with about his manga. Who had Harima open about his reasons for drawing manga/quitting manga. Who had Harima open about the true meaning of being with someone. Who did Harima cry infront of in a wussy display of emotion.

    Thirdly, Harima never changed his romantic feelings for Tenam at all. He loves her in the same way from the very begining. In contrast, his feelings for Eri changed from hatred to almost-friend later and who-knows-what now.
    And: Tenma's relationship with Karasuma progressed from one side love to Karasuma inviting her to his house. Thats pretty much. Eri's relationship progressed from disdane and indifference to sacrificing friendship from Eri's side, and from hatred to breaking Hrima's tunnel visoin from Harima's side. Thats pretty much too. Once again, I dare not to say which one is bigger.
    If you dare not say which one is bigger you can not use Eri's progression as bigger than Tenma's progression. Secondly, if Harima feeling doesn't change why does that not prevent him from being your main character but at the same time prohibit Tenma from being one (double standards).

    Oudou:
    Relationship progress - no
    Character development - yes (Harima)

    True Oudou
    Relationship progress - yes
    Character development - no

    Flag
    Relationship progress - yes
    Character development - yes
    This still doesn't disprove Oudou and True Oudou as being the main storylines.

    Means nothing. Harima was presented after Tenma - so what he is less important?

    Anything else to say on this matter?
    Well KJ did write main character under Tenma and secondary protagonist under Harima. And both are presented in parrallel forms.

    Protagonist is not something that lives for only one chapter - he is the main focus of the story. MAIN. Even if there is a chapter focused on Yuki in SR she is still not protagonist.
    Then you do not understand the true meaning of the protagonist. Yuki was the main protagonist of HER story but that doesn't mean she is the main protagonist. Just HER story.

    If you are using a word be sure to use it in the right place. If you ae saying "game" when trying to say "war" people will missunderstand. Thats why every word has its' own definition. Word "protagonist" is not an exseption. To be protagonist character should answer certain characteristics. And we know, which once. Those characteristics were established by professional artists before KJ was born, it was not me who thought of them.

    Even if KJ in 4th volume wrote that Tenma should play the role of main character (even though she can't do that in a good way - she got only 3 pointsa out of 5 as main character, after all), he couldn't make her progress later, which lead to her not fitting for a role of protagonist.

    Tenma is indeed important and deffinitely one of the main characters. But not protagonist.
    Again you are debating KJ in this one, he wrote it and he introduced Tenma first and is still continuing her storyline. She got 3 out of 5 for main characters because she is very normal, I mean look at her. Very short, very clumbsy, no bust, doesn't fit the average shounen main character like Eri or Yakumo but that would still make her the main character because he wrote it (again read vol. 1-6 the manga summaries that he wrote).

    And once again, you do not fully understand the word protagonist, there are no rules for "fitting" the role a protagonist. I'll give you a couple examples. The Great Gatsby, of Mice and Men, and the Da Vinci Code. All static protagonist.

  4. #24
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    Only the main protagonist is the main focus of the story. Most stories, including School Rumble, have far more than one protagonist. So, Yuuki can be the protagonist for two or so chapters, though it won't make her the main protagonist of the series.
    Basically you are repiting what i said in my post above. I just think that it is simpler to use two words for two different things (temp focus=Yuki and perm focus=Harima) instead of useing just one. At least it will prevent us from mixing things up.


    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    Scout is the protagonist of To Kill a Mockingbird. Believe it or not, characters don't have to be the driving force of the plot to be main characters.

    I disagree a bit here, about protagonists being characters whose focus makes the story move. I view protagonists as characters that are moved the most by the story and receive the most focus, as a result. Like Scout, the main character in To Kill a Mockingbird.
    You are right.

  5. #25
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    BTW, with the To Kill a Mockingbird thing, more skilled readers and essayist will view that Scout was a vessel to view Atticus. Much in the way Nick was a vessel to view Gatsby.

    Also remember this:
    1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
    2. a proponent for or advocate of a political cause, social program, etc.
    3. the leader or principal person in a movement, cause, etc.

    Who was leading hero of To Kill a Mockingbird. You could argue that Scout is the main protagonist but unlike here (Harper Lee, doesn't clarify who the main protagonist is). But my point here is that the protagonist of the story doesn't have to change, progress. They can be static.

  6. #26
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Strange, wasn't she hanging out more with Karasuma as time passes by.
    How does it show her character development? Character development, not relationship developmment.

    Who had Harima open with about his manga. Who had Harima open about his reasons for drawing manga/quitting manga. Who had Harima open about the true meaning of being with someone. Who did Harima cry infront of in a wussy display of emotion.
    Imouto-san. His little, little sister. It is different talking with your little sister then with rich girl who not so long ago was your enemy. While this little sister means nothing to you and can never, never hurt you. He is not afraid to speak to her, she is always so quite then it is similar to speaking with Iori. But to do the same with rich blonde.... You need some good trigger to do this.

    If you dare not say which one is bigger you can not use Eri's progression as bigger than Tenma's progression.
    Bigger than? Or as big as?

    Secondly, if Harima feeling doesn't change why does that not prevent him from being your main character but at the same time prohibit Tenma from being one (double standards).
    Because Harima's feelings change one the other field - ion his relationship with Eri. Tenma is static everywhere.

    This still doesn't disprove Oudou and True Oudou as being the main storylines.
    No, it doesn't. But it does prove that Flag has as much right to be the main storyline.

    Well KJ did write main character under Tenma and secondary protagonist under Harima. And both are presented in parrallel forms.
    What's a difference between secondary protagonist and protagonist? One shpould be getting lesss progress then another? For now it is, for some reason, reversed. I wonder why.

    Then you do not understand the true meaning of the protagonist. Yuki was the main protagonist of HER story but that doesn't mean she is the main protagonist. Just HER story.
    OK, ultranesss and me have already comppleted discussing this issue.

    Again you are debating KJ in this one, he wrote it and he introduced Tenma first and is still continuing her storyline. She got 3 out of 5 for main characters because she is very normal, I mean look at her. Very short, very clumbsy, no bust, doesn't fit the average shounen main character like Eri or Yakumo but that would still make her the main character because he wrote it (again read vol. 1-6 the manga summaries that he wrote).
    Nothing prevented KJ from changeing long planned protagonist to another protagonist in the beggining of manga, when plot is yet unstable.

    She is not normal, she is long above normal. Even guys in class refuses to see her as a girl, only as a child. If it was 3 for looks it should have been -10.

    And once again, you do not fully understand the word protagonist, there are no rules for "fitting" the role a protagonist. I'll give you a couple examples. The Great Gatsby, of Mice and Men, and the Da Vinci Code. All static protagonist.
    Gatsby never changed? Really?

  7. #27
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    How does it show her character development? Character development, not relationship developmment.
    It doens't and I have argued that Tenma doesn't have to progress to be the main character. Neither does Harima.

    Imouto-san. His little, little sister. It is different talking with your little sister then with rich girl who not so long ago was your enemy. While this little sister means nothing to you and can never, never hurt you. He is not afraid to speak to her, she is always so quite then it is similar to speaking with Iori. But to do the same with rich blonde.... You need some good trigger to do this.
    First, Yakumo isn't Harima's real sister so there is no reason to take away anything from Harima revealing a lot of his feelings to Yakumo. Secondly, in Japan call a friend who is not related to you a younger sister or older brother is really endearing and can hint at relationships (I'm not arguing that Harima likes Yakumo in that way). Thirdly, remember you can't refute the fact that Harima would rather open up to Yakumo than Eri something you counter-claimed in this line:

    "Eri made Harima open his heart beside her like he never did before with anyone."

    Bigger than? Or as big as?
    You said it yourself it's impossible to measure each progress because many of the relationships are still status-quo. But that means you can't disprove Oudou by lack of progress to Flag.

    Because Harima's feelings change one the other field - ion his relationship with Eri. Tenma is static everywhere.
    Tenma changed her relationship with Karasuma so she is not static. Again you admit that Flag may be as big as True Oudou so you are arguing your own points here. Harima = somewhat friends with Eri (it's not clear after the rejecting, rejecting incident). Tenma = somewhat more than friends with Karasuma (it's not clear but she didn't started that way with Karasuma in the beginning). So if you are arguing for Harima being the main character but at the same time Tenma not being the same character because of how static they are, then you are defeating you own logic with your own logic.

    What's a difference between secondary protagonist and protagonist? One shpould be getting lesss progress then another? For now it is, for some reason, reversed. I wonder why.
    Nope, read FMA or Romeo and Juliet. Both have so called protagonist and secondary protagonist. It's arguable who is more important over the other.

    Nothing prevented KJ from changeing long planned protagonist to another protagonist in the beggining of manga, when plot is yet unstable.

    She is not normal, she is long above normal. Even guys in class refuses to see her as a girl, only as a child. If it was 3 for looks it should have been -10.
    Once again, even if you view Tenma as a unattractive, regular girl is where her beauty comes through as a main character. She is not your typical main shounen character and -10 is very biased and insulting (I'm not even a Tenma fan). And again, nothing prevented it but he hasn't scrapped the Karasuma leaving thing part and until he does, she will remain the main character.

    -Vol. 1 Cover
    -Introduction of herself as the protagonist of the Chapter 1
    -Character Card in vol. 4
    -Manga summaries of Vol 1-6 (I don't have 7+ so don't know what he says on it)

    The evidence is overwhelming. Heresay and wishful thinking doesn't stand as proof.

  8. #28
    luisfcayo is offline Senior Member Regular
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    This is constantly changing, I think we should just read the manga and wait...
    And Im starthing to think that even KJ is confused as to who the protagonists are at this point...
    I remember a few weeks ago I posted a thread asking who is the antagonist... a lot of people argued and it seems like all main characters take the role of antagonists at one point or another depending on who you think the protagonists are... or also depending on what faction you prefer.
    One thing that kinda worries me is what if:
    Karasuma stays and ends up with Tenma, Harima would either become an antagonist 100% or go 100% emo.
    I dont know what to think of it... I think the best way to find an asnwer to all our questions is to examine possible outcomes after any "important" pairings occur.
    I assume the first pairings will start with the less important characters... moving all the way up to the main characters, during the process more details about other characters might be revealed.
    Last edited by luisfcayo; 08-18-2007 at 03:47 PM.

  9. #29
    eviscerator is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    I hold with the idea that School Rumble has multiple protagonists. It's not the kind of storyline that has one or two characters around which everything revolves. That's what makes it more realistic, because you don't have everything happening to one guy.

    For example, the focus was on Eri a lot lately, which is why I think a lot of people are calling her the main protagonists. And Tenma had a lot of focus early in the story. But when we're looking at a bigger picture, I believe Kobayashi is trying to give his cast (discounting the really minor characters like, uh, Nishimoto) equal screen time. (Minor characters still get their little spotlights from time to time, like with Yuuki.) This is different from having temporary protagonists in that

    a) They get more arcs or storylines. (Eri does well here. Basically this means that they are in the main storyline which is then punctuated by occasional temporary protagonists.)
    b) When not being the focus of an arc, they still appear as more than background characters. (Note that expecting a main character to turn up for every arc is unrealistic. That's not what I mean. It's just that they usually turn up close to the relevant action.) Basically for minor characters, they have their little time in the limelight and then they fade back into the background.

    At the moment it looks a little bit unbalanced; I'll agree that Eri and Harima currently have the most focus, and that does make them the main characters for the current time, but that can change, like we saw with Tenma. It's not like Tenma isn't a main character anymore. She's taken a back seat for now, but she's still very much a main character. The point is that having more than one or two protagonists is perfectly fine, and one doesn't have to be "more main" than the other. That said, I'm pretty sure there'll be people who disagree with this. Go ahead.
    You make your face a mask. A mask to hide your face. A face to hide the pain. A pain that eats your heart. A heart nobody knows.

  10. #30
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    First, Yakumo isn't Harima's real sister so there is no reason to take away anything from Harima revealing a lot of his feelings to Yakumo. Secondly, in Japan call a friend who is not related to you a younger sister or older brother is really endearing and can hint at relationships (I'm not arguing that Harima likes Yakumo in that way). Thirdly, remember you can't refute the fact that Harima would rather open up to Yakumo than Eri something you counter-claimed in this line:

    "Eri made Harima open his heart beside her like he never did before with anyone."
    Calling friend your "little sister" is a perfect reason to assume that you think of her as of your little sister.

    Of couse Harima would rather open his heart to Yakumo who he trusts then to Eri who he doesn't. Thats why the fact that he actually did open his heart to Eri is so meaningful.

    You said it yourself it's impossible to measure each progress because many of the relationships are still status-quo. But that means you can't disprove Oudou by lack of progress to Flag.
    No, i said that i can't measure progress (meaning put progress rate with numdebrs like Flag=10 poits and so on) because I don't have a good method to do so.

    Yes, i can't say which one has better progress. I can just say that they both have it.

    Tenma changed her relationship with Karasuma so she is not static.
    By saying that Tenma is static I mean that her character development is static=she has no characetr development. Her relationship with Karasuma is deffinitely not static. Relationship development and character development are two different things.

    Again you admit that Flag may be as big as True Oudou so you are arguing your own points here. Harima = somewhat friends with Eri (it's not clear after the rejecting, rejecting incident). Tenma = somewhat more than friends with Karasuma (it's not clear but she didn't started that way with Karasuma in the beginning). So if you are arguing for Harima being the main character but at the same time Tenma not being the same character because of how static they are, then you are defeating you own logic with your own logic.
    Once again, Tenma being static refers to her charcter developmetn, not to her relationship development.

    Nope, read FMA or Romeo and Juliet. Both have so called protagonist and secondary protagonist. It's arguable who is more important over the other.
    Recomendation to read this two does not explain the difference between protagonist and secondary protagonist to me. Please make your explanation more clear.

    Once again, even if you view Tenma as a unattractive, regular girl is where her beauty comes through as a main character. She is not your typical main shounen character and -10 is very biased and insulting (I'm not even a Tenma fan). And again, nothing prevented it but he hasn't scrapped the Karasuma leaving thing part and until he does, she will remain the main character
    Of course this view is biased, but this is not my view, it belongs to KJ - he expressed it through boys from her class: they were imagining thier female classmates in rather erotic positions and all failed to do so with Tnema, calling her "kid". This means that they can't see her as woman => this rate3 as main character doesn't speak about her lookings.

    -Vol. 1 Cover
    -Introduction of herself as the protagonist of the Chapter 1
    -Character Card in vol. 4
    -Manga summaries of Vol 1-6 (I don't have 7+ so don't know what he says on it)
    - Lets take Furaba, cover of which has only Tohru, who hardly had any character developmetn and was more of a dynamic character that moved everyone around her, but doesn't have any of Souma fqamily members, who can easily be called protagoniosts (like Yuki and Kyo).
    - First three of you can easily be the products of KJ original plan that was supposedly changed lately. If Kawashita Mizuki can change her plans with Ichigo 100% changing main girl form Aya to Nishino, why KJ can't?
    -Unfortunately, I do not have any of manga summaries so i can't comment on this. If you can upload them I would be very grateful.

    Quote Originally Posted by eviscerator View Post
    I hold with the idea that School Rumble has multiple protagonists. It's not the kind of storyline that has one or two characters around which everything revolves. That's what makes it more realistic, because you don't have everything happening to one guy.
    It may be the case. The only problem i have with Tenma being called real protagonist is her lack of character development.
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 08-19-2007 at 06:43 AM.

 

 
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