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  1. #11
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Firstly, being anti-hero doesn't prevent one from being protagonist.
    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    Anti-heroes as central characters in works of fiction will frequently deal with their flawed characteristics and on those of the characters they meet along the narrative.
    By this definition I do not see how anti-heros are different for any at least a bit developed characters who, being typical people, will allways have inner flaws and wil be overcoming them.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    Another form an anti-hero may take is a character who avoids any idea of heroism, not out of a sense of humility, but due to a genuine fear of danger, or even risk.
    Doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    Therefore, typically, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, either striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society of their world.
    I don't quite understand this - why "therefore'? How is this conneced to the previous phrase? To me they seem to be complitely independent. Lets take, for example, Kenshin (its' manga forum after all). While he can be anti-hero by last phrase, he can never be by previous.

    Also dosen't fit. I do not see any idea that Harima would be bringing to society.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    One problem with determining if the characteristics of a character fits being an Antihero is that there are multiple definitions, each allowing a different group of characters to be considered Anti heroes.
    This simply means that this "anti-hero" is not just one notion but instead a group of notions.

  2. #12
    strange_chameleon is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    yeah, i think i'm delusional right now

  3. #13
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    This was true only for the first few volumes, the situation changed. Note that Tenma's main character's bar is far from being complete.
    It was in the fourth volume. By then if you haven't establish your main storyline and character then your story has no stable plot and the main character can be changed at any given time.

    The main story here has been two intertwining plots that have been placed throughout the manga and continued. Even though lots of things have changed, archs have been introduced, the main story has always been the same.

    Tenma (Female Protagonist): Be with Karasuma
    Main Antagonist: Time (once time runs out with Karasuma)

    Harima (Male Protagonist): Be with Tenma
    Main Antagonist: Everything that doesn't help him be with Tenma (Manga, misunderstandings, different girls he is rumoured to be with)

    These two plots intertwine and make up the main motif and central plot of School Rumble.

    Now add another two plots:

    Side Plot Number 1:

    Eri: Wants to be with Harima
    Main Antagonist: Harima

    Side Plot Number 2:

    Yakumo: Wants to find out who she likes and report to that ghost girl (inner self-discovery)
    Main Antagonist: Her shyness.

    These two plots are instrumental because they are the antagonist to the main plot, but at the same time protagonist of their own storyline.

    Both girls in this instance are their own protagonist and there are different stories and archs where the protagonist will change but however what doesn't change is the main storyline. And who are the protagonist and ultimate the main characters? (Once again refer to my picture that already explained pretty much everything)

  4. #14
    strange_chameleon is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    now that you pointed the things out

    it's pretty clear....i think

    i stand corrected

  5. #15
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    yeah, i think i'm delusional right now
    It's not that. I just think that its' pretty hard to use notion that doesn't even have a clear definition

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    It was in the fourth volume. By then if you haven't establish your main storyline and character then your story has no stable plot and the main character can be changed at any given time.
    Thanks for corretion.
    By forth volume 2 main storylines were already established. Oudou and True Oudou appear in volume 1 and take the entire space of it. Flag appeares in volume 2. So does Marker. O. and T.O. Are still taking a lot of time. Here we have (mangaka has) two possibilities - either develop Marker or Flag. Conflict between them arises in the next volume and Flag gets a lot of screen time. And, as the story goes on, it has more and more screen time togather with factions whose role is to anthogonise it. Odou is still there (the question is - to anthagonise Flag or visa versa?).

    Main storylines (connected through Harima) were established in the second volume. The difference between them is that in one he has progress (Flag) while in other one he is static (Oudou).

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The main story here has been two intertwining plots that have been placed throughout the manga and continued. Even though lots of things have changed, archs have been introduced, the main story has always been the same.

    Tenma (Female Protagonist): Be with Karasuma
    Main Antagonist: Time (once time runs out with Karasuma)

    Harima (Male Protagonist): Be with Tenma
    Main Antagonist: Everything that doesn't help him be with Tenma (Manga, misunderstandings, different girls he is rumoured to be with)

    These two plots intertwine and make up the main motif and central plot of School Rumble.

    Now add another two plots:

    Side Plot Number 1:

    Eri: Wants to be with Harima
    Main Antagonist: Harima

    Side Plot Number 2:

    Yakumo: Wants to find out who she likes and report to that ghost girl (inner self-discovery)
    Main Antagonist: Her shyness.

    These two plots are instrumental because they are the antagonist to the main plot, but at the same time protagonist of their own storyline.
    Nice theory. Here are some questions:
    1) Why do you think that True Oudou and Oudou are main storylines?
    2) Why do you think that Flag is side storyline?

    Both girls in this instance are their own protagonist and there are different stories and archs where the protagonist will change but however what doesn't change is the main storyline.
    Of course, main storyline that appeared in the beggining will always be there.

    What do you mean by "protogonist will change" in different arcs? Are you saying then in one arc Tenma is protagonist while in another - Eri?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And who are the protagonist and ultimate the main characters? (Once again refer to my picture that already explained pretty much everything)
    Thats what we are trying to find out and to prove.

    It seems to me that you didn't see my answer to your post from last chapter discussion thread: looks like I added it to my post after you quoted it. So I'll repost it here:
    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    As far as main character goes, since KJ already had written main character under Tenma, secondary protagonist under Harima. It's reasonable to assume unless he tells us otherwise that they are both the main characters.
    There is a thing called "difinition of a word protagonist". Whatever KJ wrote in a card, if Tenma as a character fails to fit the definition, that means that she can't be called protagonist and that KJ made a mistake (or that his original plan to make Tenma protagonist changed later). If Tenma approves the deffinition, then she can be called protagonist. Same for every character.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    They are the protagonist of the main storylines (which ultraness admit was the main storyline).
    I would say: one of two main storylines.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Now this is not to say that Eri doesn't have a big part in SR cause it's not true, but she is not the main character. So I don't see what we are arguing here, anything else is wishful thinking.
    If Eri is not the main character, then she won't fit the definition. She does fit.

    In this thread we are trying to see if said "main characters" of SR are really main charactres or not.

  6. #16
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Thanks for corretion.
    By forth volume 2 main storylines were already established. Oudou and True Oudou appear in volume 1 and take the entire space of it. Flag appeares in volume 2. So does Marker. O. and T.O. Are still taking a lot of time. Here we have (mangaka has) two possibilities - either develop Marker or Flag. Conflict between them arises in the next volume and Flag gets a lot of screen time. And, as the story goes on, it has more and more screen time togather with factions whose role is to anthogonise it. Odou is still there (the question is - to anthagonise Flag or visa versa?).

    Main storylines (connected through Harima) were established in the second volume. The difference between them is that in one he has progress (Flag) while in other one he is static (Oudou).
    And has Harima devloped more with Eri or more with Tenma? Has Tenma developed more with Karasuma than Eri developed with Harima? I want concrete evidence that Harima stance toward Eri, romantically has changed more than Tenma. I want concrete evidence that Tenma own storyline has stayed more static Eri own relationship. And once again you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with KJ on this one. Look at the picture. How can you refure: main character under Tenma.


    Nice theory. Here are some questions:
    1) Why do you think that True Oudou and Oudou are main storylines?
    2) Why do you think that Flag is side storyline?
    It was presented after True Oudoou and Oudou. Did you ever thought why that was? Because it was presented as an antagonist plot to True Oudou and Oudou.

    Of course, main storyline that appeared in the beggining will always be there.

    What do you mean by "protogonist will change" in different arcs? Are you saying then in one arc Tenma is protagonist while in another - Eri?
    Because Yuuki can become the protagonist of the current chapter. Like she did in various chapters. Because Yakumo can become the protagonist of chapter, in various chapters, etc. That doesn't change the fact that Oudou and True Oudou are the main storylines.

    There is a thing called "difinition of a word protagonist". Whatever KJ wrote in a card, if Tenma as a character fails to fit the definition, that means that she can't be called protagonist and that KJ made a mistake (or that his original plan to make Tenma protagonist changed later). If Tenma approves the deffinition, then she can be called protagonist. Same for every character.
    You are arguing against KJ with this one. He wrote main character under Tenma and you are saying that Tenma and Oudou, his main storyline (the one that started it all and branched out all the other storylines) was a mistake because you think Eri would be fit to be the main character. Once again, why had, KJ even after he establish a hint of flag before the fourth volume still concede that Tenma was the main character and Harima was a secondary protagonist.

    If Eri is not the main character, then she won't fit the definition. She does fit.

    In this thread we are trying to see if said "main characters" of SR are really main charactres or not.
    Nope, there is no such thing as "fitting" the definition of protagonist. Protagonist are not cookie cutter objects where one protagonist is the same as the other. A protagonist can be stupid, can be static and can never change throughout the manga.

  7. #17
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    btw, if you want more proof Tenma is the main character,

    read the manga summaries of Vol. 1-6 that KJ wrote.
    Last edited by aulzon; 08-18-2007 at 12:45 PM.

  8. #18
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    One of the strengths of School Rumble, in my opinion, is that it doesn't seem to be tied down by a main character. Who the main character seems to change all the time. Tenma lives up to her job description in the first two volumes, but as her disapperances from the storyline increase, she stops fitting the bill. After the second volume, Harima fits the description better than Tenma does for awhile. Yet, as Harima spends more time with Eri (and readers spend more time with Eri's thoughts and perspective) and Eri develops more than the rest of the cast, she becomes the main character. But, her screen time has declined in the last twenty chapters and main character does not describe her, at the moment. So, who will be the main protagonist for the end game? Either Tenma or Harima need to start undergoing some serious changes for the story to have a resolution, and which one does will likely be the protagonist for the last story arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange_chameleon View Post
    i think the role that best describes harima is that he is more of an anti-hero
    Yeah. But there's series like Hellsing, Bastard!, and Berserk where the main character is an anti-hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    It was in the fourth volume. By then if you haven't establish your main storyline and character then your story has no stable plot and the main character can be changed at any given time.
    School Rumble doesn't have a stable plot in the first four volumes. Most of the chapters are one-shot gags. It isn't until Eri and Mikoto have problems with each other in the fourth volume that it shows some semblance of stability, and the characters that get center stage for that are Eri and Mikoto. The next major arc is the sports festival, and the protagonists for that arc are Eri and Harima. Next is the Battle Royale parody, which has Hanai as the main protagonist and Tenma as a secondary protagonist.

    Following that is the play arc, where Eri plays protagonist to Yakumo's antagonist. A basketball arc occurs after that, where Asou and Mikoto are the main characters. Then, we have a manga arc focusing on Yakumo before the Omiai arc, in which Eri and Harima are the protagonists. Kyoto arc is next, and Eri and Harima are the protagonists of that, too. Then, we have an arc for the feud between Eri and Tenma, where Eri is the protagonist antagonized unknowingly by Tenma.

    The storyline of Tenma's quest for Karasuma has been underlined throughout all this, as well as Harima's pursuit of Tenma, and the two serve the purpose of bridging all the mini-stories together. Yet, almost never in the story does Tenma actually act as the protagonist, and Harima's relationship with Tenma has almost always been overshadowed by his relationship with Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Nope, there is no such thing as "fitting" the definition of protagonist. Protagonist are not cookie cutter objects where one protagonist is the same as the other. A protagonist can be stupid, can be static and can never change throughout the manga.
    You seem to be writing your own definition of "protagonist" here. Also, the simple fact that there is a definition for "protagonist" should tell you that some characters will fit one, while others do not.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #19
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And has Harima devloped more with Eri or more with Tenma? Has Tenma developed more with Karasuma than Eri developed with Harima? I want concrete evidence that Harima stance toward Eri, romantically has changed more than Tenma. I want concrete evidence that Tenma own storyline has stayed more static Eri own relationship.
    Firstly, Tenma never developed at all. Neither with Harima, nor with Karasuma.
    Secondly, about Harima's development in different factions. I dare not to measure it, since I do not know the correct method to measure development, I can just show if developmetn was there or not. So: both Oudou and Flag made Harima change. Examples: The wish to be with Tenma made Harima to draw manga. Eri made Harima open his heart beside her like he never did before with anyone.
    Thirdly, Harima never changed his romantic feelings for Tenam at all. He loves her in the same way from the very begining. In contrast, his feelings for Eri changed from hatred to almost-friend later and who-knows-what now.
    And: Tenma's relationship with Karasuma progressed from one side love to Karasuma inviting her to his house. Thats pretty much. Eri's relationship progressed from disdane and indifference to sacrificing friendship from Eri's side, and from hatred to breaking Hrima's tunnel visoin from Harima's side. Thats pretty much too. Once again, I dare not to say which one is bigger.

    Now lets compare Oudou, True Oudou and Flag:

    Oudou:
    Relationship progress - no
    Character development - yes (Harima)

    True Oudou
    Relationship progress - yes
    Character development - no

    Flag
    Relationship progress - yes
    Character development - yes

    I do not see how Flag is less important then O and TO.

    It was presented after True Oudoou and Oudou. Did you ever thought why that was? Because it was presented as an antagonist plot to True Oudou and Oudou.
    Means nothing. Harima was presented after Tenma - so what he is less important?

    Anything else to say on this matter?

    Because Yuuki can become the protagonist of the current chapter. Like she did in various chapters. Because Yakumo can become the protagonist of chapter, in various chapters, etc.
    Protagonist is not something that lives for only one chapter - he is the main focus of the story. MAIN. Even if there is a chapter focused on Yuki in SR she is still not protagonist.

    And once again you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with KJ on this one. Look at the picture. How can you refure: main character under Tenma.

    <..>

    You are arguing against KJ with this one. He wrote main character under Tenma and you are saying that Tenma and Oudou, his main storyline (the one that started it all and branched out all the other storylines) was a mistake because you think Eri would be fit to be the main character. Once again, why had, KJ even after he establish a hint of flag before the fourth volume still concede that Tenma was the main character and Harima was a secondary protagonist. Nope, there is no such thing as "fitting" the definition of protagonist. Protagonist are not cookie cutter objects where one protagonist is the same as the other. A protagonist can be stupid, can be static and can never change throughout the manga.
    If you are using a word be sure to use it in the right place. If you ae saying "game" when trying to say "war" people will missunderstand. Thats why every word has its' own definition. Word "protagonist" is not an exseption. To be protagonist character should answer certain characteristics. And we know, which once. Those characteristics were established by professional artists before KJ was born, it was not me who thought of them.

    Even if KJ in 4th volume wrote that Tenma should play the role of main character (even though she can't do that in a good way - she got only 3 pointsa out of 5 as main character, after all), he couldn't make her progress later, which lead to her not fitting for a role of protagonist.

    Tenma is indeed important and deffinitely one of the main characters. But not protagonist.

  10. #20
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    One of the strengths of School Rumble, in my opinion, is that it doesn't seem to be tied down by a main character. Who the main character seems to change all the time. Tenma lives up to her job description in the first two volumes, but as her disapperances from the storyline increase, she stops fitting the bill. After the second volume, Harima fits the description better than Tenma does for awhile. Yet, as Harima spends more time with Eri (and readers spend more time with Eri's thoughts and perspective) and Eri develops more than the rest of the cast, she becomes the main character. But, her screen time has declined in the last twenty chapters and main character does not describe her, at the moment. So, who will be the main protagonist for the end game? Either Tenma or Harima need to start undergoing some serious changes for the story to have a resolution, and which one does will likely be the protagonist for the last story arc.
    Yet you argued that Eri is the main character. And this would mean that you think your opinion would be more canon than say KJ writing main character underneath Tenma and secondary protagonist for Harima.

    School Rumble doesn't have a stable plot in the first four volumes. Most of the chapters are one-shot gags. It isn't until Eri and Mikoto have problems with each other in the fourth volume that it shows some semblance of stability, and the characters that get center stage for that are Eri and Mikoto. The next major arc is the sports festival, and the protagonists for that arc are Eri and Harima. Next is the Battle Royale parody, which has Hanai as the main protagonist and Tenma as a secondary protagonist.

    Following that is the play arc, where Eri plays protagonist to Yakumo's antagonist. A basketball arc occurs after that, where Asou and Mikoto are the main characters. Then, we have a manga arc focusing on Yakumo before the Omiai arc, in which Eri and Harima are the protagonists. Kyoto arc is next, and Eri and Harima are the protagonists of that, too. Then, we have an arc for the feud between Eri and Tenma, where Eri is the protagonist antagonized unknowingly by Tenma.

    The storyline of Tenma's quest for Karasuma has been underlined throughout all this, as well as Harima's pursuit of Tenma, and the two serve the purpose of bridging all the mini-stories together. Yet, almost never in the story does Tenma actually act as the protagonist, and Harima's relationship with Tenma has almost always been overshadowed by his relationship with Eri.
    Once again, it's overshadowed because you think it is but that's your perception. Ever think maybe Eri was the main antagonist and why her storyline was introduced was to be an unprogressive to Tenma-Harima . And yet still you admit that the two storylines are the driving narrative of School Rumble but yet you still think Eri is the main character.

    You seem to be writing your own definition of "protagonist" here. Also, the simple fact that there is a definition for "protagonist" should tell you that some characters will fit one, while others do not.
    I was correcting reinard that all protagonist don't have to be static or progressive but they are who they are. One major example would be Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird. He stays static throughout the events, unchanging in his way but he is still the protagonist. Scout changes about her philosophies to judge people and progresses as a character throughout the book but Atticus is still the main character because Atticus has the main storyline.

 

 
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