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  1. #71
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox
    Why?
    Perhaps the poster believes that saying something emphatically makes it correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by shikaboomboom
    If anything she is more like a dynamic character.
    A character that's more dynamic and rounded than the rest is one of the defining characteristics of a main character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyto1984
    Well we're seeing more of what Yakumo is truly feeling, plus she was the only one who actually came to "Visit" him. Tenma was there because she (carried?) him to the hospital. Eri was only there because Nakamura was hospitalized too. Yakumo came and brought the manga to him. She knew he was there and planned to spend time with him.
    The mention of "the only one who remembered" is part of a classic SR gag where a character or characters in some sort of predicament are forgotten and left behind while everyone else is having fun. You first saw it during the beach arc with Imadori and Mikoto, but Hanai is the typical target of this type of joke.

    The specifics of how each character came to know isn't important. If Eri is willing to see an employee of the family in hospital, then would it be so unlikely for her to find some sort of excuse to come see the guy that she loves? If she's just there to see Nakamura, why did she ignore him and start that long conversation with Harima?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyto1984
    Okay, she took a single class, and she didn't even know what the chief was talking about. And don't tell me you predicted she would say Clinical Psychology, Nutritionalist, or a Nurse (well, maybe nurse).
    That's more trivia than a character revelation. KJ could have chosen any three job titles out of a hat to use in their place, and the substance of the conversation still wouldn't have changed.

    It's neat stuff to know if you're curious, though (good material for the wiki).

  2. #72
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Aiya, tsk tsk, so much debating. Let's see, let's see.

    All I have to say is this...Thank you for proving you're doing exactly the same thing you're accusing Ultraness of doing. Read what yakumo says RIGHT AFTER she says "That's what I thought when I slapped her." There's a "..." which implies continuation of thought which then leads to "but I was wrong." That last line easily implies that even though at the time it seemed she was slapping Eri to protect her sister, there were underlying emotions(such as, dare I say it, Jealousy?!) that also drove her to slap Eri.
    Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Yes Yakumo says that afterwards but it still doesn't pull the fact that protecting Tenma was what she had thought at the time. Her feelings on chapter 215 are those feelings are of jealously but the main point here is not of that but whether or not the slap caused conflict and whether or not the slap at the time was Yakumo trying to protect her sister.

    You accuse Ultraness of "Eri Homerism" yet you fail to see your own Yakumo "goggles," as you've put it. You've both made some valid points in the god knows how many responses you have to eachother but you're both failing to see one important thing. You're two different people who are going to interpret things differently. Ultraness obviously favors Eri so he's going see things in a way that put her in a favorable light. You obviously favor Yakumo so you'll do the same for her. Does that make either interpretation wrong? no, it just makes them different.
    Um, I'm arguing for Yakumo. I know I have my own Yakumo leaning biased, I've never said anything to refute that. But my difference with him, is where in every situation Eri has been in, he has either blamed Harima, Tenma or Yakumo in it. I've defended all three of them but he keeps Eri from blame from those situation. And this is a debate where we each have to take one side, so you are merely pointing out the obvious in order to make you seem righteous and above it all. And Eri being interpreted as the main character, I think is wrong, not just wrong but absolutely wrong. There are some interpretations in the manga are just that, bad interpretations.

    One more thing...debating and trying to get the other to see why girl A is better boy Z than girl B is all fine and dandy, and I know from being here for awhile that Ultraness loves a good debate, but your petty insults towards him need to stop. Discussions and debates should be enlightening and encouraging.
    Hmm, considering he lead the way with being out there to antagonize me because I have a different opinion other than Eri + Harima is pretty petty in itself. I wouldn't of got into this so called "enlightening and encouraging" debate if he would of been less uptight to me enjoying a Harima + Yakumo chapter. And I'll try to keep "my petty insults" to a minimum (so that it doesn't offend uptight people) but this is a forum that was created original for the purpose of bashing and stopping Tazmo, this isn't Oxford my friend. I'll call things as I see them, either delusional or just nonsense.

  3. #73
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Lightbulb Aha!

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I'll call things as I see them, either delusional or just nonsense.
    So wait, you're telling us that anything that you see is either just a delusion or nonsense? If so, that would seem to explain the problem!

    Conflict resolved! Hugs for everyone!

  4. #74
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yes Yakumo says that afterwards but it still doesn't pull the fact that protecting Tenma was what she had thought at the time. Her feelings on chapter 215 are those feelings are of jealously but the main point here is not of that but whether or not the slap caused conflict and whether or not the slap at the time was Yakumo trying to protect her sister.
    You yourself are saying that the wish to protect her sister was not the only thing that Yakumo had in mind when slapping Eri. She had both in mind - the will to prtotect and jealousy. Any questions?

    Slap never coused conflict as I recall it (if I'm wrong then please tell me the page and chapter that proves me being wrong) - it triggered Yakumo's mindbreak and her giving speach about Eri's feelings to Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Um, I'm arguing for Yakumo. I know I have my own Yakumo leaning biased, I've never said anything to refute that. But my difference with him, is where in every situation Eri has been in, he has either blamed Harima, Tenma or Yakumo in it. I've defended all three of them but he keeps Eri from blame from those situation. And this is a debate where we each have to take one side, so you are merely pointing out the obvious in order to make you seem righteous and above it all.

    <...>

    Hmm, considering he lead the way with being out there to antagonize me because I have a different opinion other than Eri + Harima is pretty petty in itself. I wouldn't of got into this so called "enlightening and encouraging" debate if he would of been less uptight to me enjoying a Harima + Yakumo chapter.
    Let me leave this for others to comment on.
    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And Eri being interpreted as the main character, I think is wrong, not just wrong but absolutely wrong.
    One again - why? Or what Swamp said in his first post on this paga refers to you too?
    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    There are some interpretations in the manga are just that, bad interpretations.
    What interpretations that are made in manga are so bad? I just don't understand this line.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And I'll try to keep "my petty insults" to a minimum (so that it doesn't offend uptight people) but this is a forum that was created original for the purpose of bashing and stopping Tazmo, this isn't Oxford my friend.
    I don't recall SR forum to be made for bashing Tazmo who I fail to care less about

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
    So wait, you're telling us that anything that you see is either just a delusion or nonsense? If so, that would seem to explain the problem!

    Conflict resolved! Hugs for everyone!
    You just pointed out a great sigquote
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 08-17-2007 at 03:27 PM.

  5. #75
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    If, by any chance, one of mods sees it, delete this please, ne?

  6. #76
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Heh you know what I mean. I can make a comment that that comment is delusional or nonsense if that's what I wanted.

    You yourself are saying that the wish to protect her sister was not the only thing that Yakumo had in mind when slapping Eri. She had both in mind - the will to prtotect and jealousy. Any questions?

    Slap never coused conflict as I recall it (if I'm wrong then please tell me the page and chapter that proves me being wrong) - it triggered Yakumo's mindbreak and her giving speach about Eri's feelings to Harima.
    I direct you to these comments which started the slap debate:

    There's nothing symbolic about the slap. It's just a violent consequence of Yakumo's issues with her sister and her anger at Eri for attempting to change Harima.

    "My point would be that Eri is far from being someone that wants to start conflict and that things are the other way around. Yakumo did something that could have easily led to conflict (disrespecting seniors is very unacceptable in Japan), yet Eri prevents this by not allowing the situation to escalate." -ultra

    "Violent consequence? It was a wake up call. Eri knew she was wrong, she knew she wronged Tenma. The simple fact is Yakumo did the right thing, Tenma and Eri made up. Once again you paint Yakumo as the jealous one. Yakumo didn't do it because "Eri was attempting to change Harima". That couldn't be farther from the truth. She did it because she cared for Tenma and Eri left her out in the cold both physically and metaphorically. The action caused no conflict, it was dramatic but not conflicted." - me

    "That's why I can't forgive anyone that treats her like an idiot. I had to do what nee-san couldn't, no matter what she said. That's what I thought when I slapped her, but...I was wrong...I know...I know that Sawachika-senpai is in love with Harima-sempai."

    "We know from Chapter 211 that Yakumo learned of Harima's "date" with Eri before the slap, and the quote from Yakumo (bold added) states that Yakumo thought she slapped Eri to protect Eri, but that this was not true. Yakumo proceeded to name her knowledge of Eri's feelings immediately afterward strongly indicates that this was the true reason behind the slap.

    Furthermore, Yakumo has a history of acting against Eri and her relationship with Harima to make this idea consistent with the rest of the series. It's Yakumo's friends mentioning Eri in Chapter 206 that motivates her to act for Oudou, and Yakumo (disguised as Iori) forces Harima to go to the Tsukamoto house (instead of Eri's) by running off." -ultra

    "Heh, a wake up call? All Yakumo did was agree with everything Eri said about Tenma by not denying any of it and attacking Eri. Nothing in Yakumo’s manner implied her goal was anything more than simple revenge. Plus, ironically, Yakumo attacks Eri for acting just like Yakumo did as kid in Chapter 174, demonstrating she’s rather lacking in the empathy department. This is nothing worth applauding." - ultra

    "Did it cause a rift between Tenma and Eri? Did the slap end their fued or fuel it.? You argued that what she did brought conflict or would of brought conflict but it didn't. And it was worth applauding. The simple fact is Eri is spoiled and up to this point no one had the guts to tell her off. Eri told Tenma who was asking for her apology for something she had no fault in but something Eri misunderstood her that it was her fault "you went and did this to yourself." Even Eri's own mind was telling her that she was wronging Tenma but she still kept on speaking. And as far as 174, lol, that be interesting you compare the maturity of Eri for acting like Yakumo did as a KID. Yakumo kind of grew up, but Eri on the other hand..." - me

    Remember what we are arguing about here, it would save me a lot of trouble.

    One again - why? Or what Swamp said in his first post on this paga refers to you too?
    Oh, boy, the main character thing again. I already got ultraness to told me that KJ wrote main character underneath Tenma and secondary protagonist underneath Harima. There are no indications of Eri being the main character ever, not one (just what people "feel"). And remember the main storyline which ultraness conceded to me, Eri only has a small side role in the main storyline so she can't be a protagonist in it. And also if your main character isn't established already by Vol. 1-5, where is the consistency in your manga. I feel silly for explaining why Tenma and Harima are the main characters of this manga.

    "What interpretations that are made in manga are so bad? I just don't understand this line."

    -"There's nothing symbolic about the slap. It's just a violent consequence of Yakumo's issues with her sister and her anger at Eri for attempting to change Harima."
    -"Both are called the main characters in the beginning, but neither of them really get development I would expect from a protagonist. Only Eri has, so far. More importantly, though, Tenma and Harima's relationship hasn't been the focus of the story."
    -"Eri didn't actually force him to decide between the two. " (referring to manga + tenma in chapter 214)
    -"When Eri is "fighting" with Yakumo in Chapter 123 on page five, she asks "There's no deception behind those words...am I wrong?" in response to Yakumo saying she spent a long time with Harima, though Eri is actually asking if Yakumo is in a relationship with Harima. And the close-up of Yakumo's eyes indicate Yakumo understands the underlying question.

    Yakumo's response is hidden, but Eri's reaction highly suggests Yakumo told Eri she was in a relationship with Harima. Meaning, Yakumo contributed to Eri's misunderstanding." (this is highly ironic considering when Yakumo was asked by Eri during the dance afterwards what her relationship was with Harima, she cleared it up, why would she say something like "I'm in a relationship with Harima" in that hidden message then)

    I don't recall SR forum to be made for bashing Tazmo who I fail to care less about
    I was just making a point that everything doesn't have to follow the clean rules of the Oxford-style debate. This is just an inane manga forum on a website that was created to bash a guy called Tazmo. Whether I call comments delusional is up for grabs .

  7. #77
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    You're changing the main arguing point to bash Yakumo, something you do a lot. It's not inconsiderate if you want the guy you like/love to confess his feelings to Tenma. If Harima does find closure in Tenma that would leave room to another girl, that's sure is considerate to Eri as well. And Yakumo knows of Tenma's feeling for Karasuma are almost as obstinance as Harima's feeling for Tenma. That's why getting Harima's confession out is probably the best idea for all parties considered.
    I'm still waiting to hear why you think Yakumo merely wanted Harima to express his feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    This is way too direct and also a perfect example of what she did to gain favour with Harima. This was what, right after the dance thing too (and rumours of them going out)? What do you think she expected from doing this.
    You're still not explaining how this means she expected a favor from Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    1. Yakumo and Harima during that cosplay event where she pretended to be the manga master and convinced him to keep drawing manga. Yakumo took the initiative to do
    Yakumo needed a push from Sarah.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    2. Yakumo helping out Harima gather fire wood during the outing in the early chapters.
    Harima wasn't in a jam.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    For the first thing isn't that a little too much to expect from someone who would shun someone out in the cold to go on a date?
    Eri didn't know that Tenma was out in the cold.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    And again, what do you expect from Tenma?
    Read the last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Yakumo knew what she did was right to Eri. If you hear that speech throughout 215 about protecting her sister you will find, "That's what I thought when I slapped her." So the slap was to protect her sister.
    Read the sentence right after that, where Yakumo says she's wrong. Read the part where Yakumo calls herself the worst before telling Sarah she slapped Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    And yeah, it's typical for you to expect an apology from Yakumo.. and Tenma... and probably the rest of the cast of SR to apologize to Eri for all the trouble they caused her.
    No. I only expect one from Yakumo.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Rudely revealing her secrets? Ohhh, right so after all that time she spent together with Harima and dropping hints here and there, that the message wasn't clear enough of what her intentions were. Yeah, big secret.
    Irrelevant. Yakumo doesn't have this knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    And the results are the results, that's Harima decision and it had nothing to do with Yakumo.
    Which makes it clear enough that she wasn't helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    How will you know if they even love you truely.
    It's called "trust."

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Thanks for conceding the point, Yakumo is more mature.
    If you think that shouting out your hatred for someone and slapping people is more mature than calmly talking to someone about your problems, feel free.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Yakumo listed why she knew it was right, and Eri had no problems with it.
    Where did Yakumo do this?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Running away from home? Real mature way to act to your parents.
    She doesn't want to run away from home; she wants to move away from home after she graduates from high school.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Unfortunately there are many stereotypes and archetypes in this manga but each person who has a favourite character thinks that their characters are above it, which in itself is real homerism.
    "Homerism" isn't a word.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    I don't want this tea, I want it from Osaka or something? That sounds like a real diva right there.
    You're confusing Eri's demands with Harima's demands. Though, I suppose Harima can be like a diva at times...

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Isn't that what being spoiled means? Getting what you want, whatever the costs, grabbing your parent's attention while doing it? And independent?
    Read the Omiai arc, where it's shown that Eri conforms to her parents' wishes, rather than rebelling against them by pushing for her own wishes. So, by this definition of spoiled, Eri fails to qualify.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Hardly. I don't think sleeping over at your friends house and having a butler follow you constantly constitutes as independence.
    Obviously, Eri would need to be in a state of dependence to desire to be independent.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Eri thinks Tenma hurt her.
    So? That doesn’t make her spoiled.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Eri thinks everyone is out to hurt her.
    Unsupported statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Did she get her act together? Tell me, what happened in the next chapter? Was she fuming? How did she look after receiving the slap? How did she look when by herself? Was she thinking, hey damn that Yakumo for slapping me or was she thinking how she wronged Tenma?
    This is irrelevant to Yakumo's intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    And when did Yakumo ever say that the two were more than this. Once again Eri misunderstands a situation. She was jumping to conclusions and she didn't even give Yakumo a chance to say anything.
    Irrelevant to Yakumo needing to be pushed by Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Yakumo did what she did because of what Eri had already said to Tenma and that's the true point and I'll concede that I made that point wrongly about would of saying something bad but that doesn't ignore the point that Eri had already said bad things about Tenma.
    Yakumo plainly states in Chapter 215 that she was wrong about her reasons for slapping Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    "Uh, you didn't see the consequences of the slap. The slap was symbolic as well as physical to Eri (get your act together, stop ignoring your friend). Did it cause conflict? Not really, Eri and Tenma got back together. So I don't know what point you are trying to prove with that."

    I argued with the consequences of the slap, you argued that the slap "could of" been conflicting and lead to more conflicts.
    You make a correlation between Yakumo slapping Eri and the conflict resolving. Correlations do not denote causality. So, you’re making a “could of” statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    First, I never said Yakumo told her friends who Harima like, just who she thought Harima like. And she thought it in her head. So read the chapter again and really examine it. Remember our arguing point here, it was was Yakumo wanted Tenma and Harima together in this chapter or who she thought (well knew) Harima liked.
    Eri's name being mentioned motivates Yakumo to think about whom Harima likes.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    No it's related. Yakumo knew that Tenma was off to find Eri so her not being with Eri was a surprise.
    It's Eri's location that surprises her, since that's the one she thinks about.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Eri whereabout's directly relate to Tenma's whereabouts. Once again, read chapter 209, page 6. Where Tenma said she is going off to apologize to Eri. When Harima tells Yakumo, "I had to spend the whole day with Ojou in a family restaurant." and then she said, "What, Eri wasn't with Nee-san yesterday?". Now wouldn't it be weird, if I called you and said, "Hey I spent the day with Tom." and then you said, "What Adam wasn't with Tom yesterday?". Tom was the emphasis on the previous sentence, Yakumo had thought Tenma was with Eri yesterday so when Harima said it, whether or not Eri was the subject or her location was the subject it still had to do with Tenma's whereabouts. I feel like I have to explain things in the simpliest forms to explain you're inane arguments. Things could be so easier if it wasn't Eri this and Eri that. Maybe people are thinking about other things than Eri.
    None of this changes the fact that Yakumo was thinking about Eri first.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Once again, you're point was to prove Yakumo trying to interfere with Eri and Harima's relationship yet you failed to do that and instead relied on your misinterpretation of her "intent", which you obviously know since you are the mangaka. Yakumo sees Harima, Harima picks her up, Harima carries her home, she feels good. Yakumo likes Harima so being picked up by him makes her feel good (I'm sure Eri would feel good if she was in that situation as well). Where was the intent to seperate the two again? Her feeling good? You're interpretation of her feeling good was seperating Eri, my interpretation was hey, maybe Yakumo likes Harima and it feels good to be in his arm. I dunno, it's a long stretch ne?
    Chapter 215 confirms her intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    I've already dealt with this unless you bothered to read. Tell me where was the attempt to interfere between Eri and Harima? Now your turn.
    Chapters b43 and 207.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Now heres the thing. You said in that hidden box that no one can see, that Yakumo obviously said she was in a relationship with Harima. Now here's the question you have to have. And by using this question you will have your answer. Why did Eri asked Yakumo about the nature of their relationship during the dance when, in your mind, Yakumo hidden response during the play was she was in a relationship with Harima? Get it out now? Eureka! Wow, so much 'splaining to do. And our point was you said Yakumo contributed to Eri's misunderstanding which doesn't make sense again since when Eri asked Yakumo she told the truth that she was only an assistant.
    This is completely unrelated to my reasoning that Eri believed Yakumo told her she had a relationship with Harima.

    Eri asks Yakumo in the dance because the whole play was an act. This answers the question of why Eri asks, whatever Yakumo said.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    That still doesn't explain why she went through all that trouble just to deny it. You said she wanted to take risk in the relationships, so you have to explain why take those risk when she denied their ultimate outcome. Which is confess to Harima.
    Some risks she’ll take, others she won’t. The story has been building up to her eventually confess her feelings to Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Tae was just another misunderstanding I used a point to back up that Eri doesn't understand.
    Maybe you shouldn’t have mentioned this in a post unrelated to that, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Once again, why is it that Yakumo has to explain anything to Eri about their relationship at that point in time and that proves that she is spoiled and your focus is constantly on her.
    Irrelevant to the issue of Yakumo ending conflicts.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Firstly, Eri realized she wronged Tenma so even if Tenma was apologizing to her (which she had no reason to), Eri knew it was her fault. And continuing to be mad at her? Yeah, that's very noble, Eri you exemplify kindness T_T.
    Irrelevant to Eri choosing to stop feuding with Tenma.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Even if she wasn't going to continue badmouthing Tenma doesn't ignore that fact that she was already badmouthing her and was just in the process of badmouthing her so the slap was in Yakumo mind to prevent her from berating her sister. Even if that "could have" statement didn't stand it still excuse Eri from what she was already doing, which was badmouthing Tenma.
    Yet, Yakumo clearly states she was wrong about the slap being due to a desire to protect Tenma. Also, you seem to have a double-standard regarding the use of hypothetical scenarios to make a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    One girl can mean everything to one person, one girl (Tenma) for Harima = the general perception. Reputation also means "The state or situation of being held in high esteem." It didn't really look good when he took a girl that didn't like him and rejected her, especially if that girl was a friend of a girl you loved.
    Yet, Harima never knows if Tenma’s opinion of him changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Once again. This goes back to the taking risk arguments. Harima had just won the relay race and saved Eri from dropping the ball on the race and costing the class the victory. The argument is whether it was a risk to ask someone who just saved you to a dance. And it applies to Harima. And in his own mind, he didn't think any thing of the dance. Just a token of gratitude.
    Harima could have said no. That’s why it’s a risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Seems like your backing away from the evidence I presented to you and instead of arguing that you are arguing Eri's ability to understand, something you acknowledged by making this point, very suspect.
    The scenes you mention aren’t evidence that Eri understood Yakumo.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    But it's interesting you can use her not understanding people feelings and situation (which I argue), to not understanding a simple statement.
    Since not understanding people’s feelings usually results from misunderstanding simple statements...

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Why hadn't she act out then but act out after 205 (when Yakumo told Eri Harima liked "shrimp").
    Eri believed Tenma was pursuing Harima in Chapter 207.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Yet you make a point that Harima left school because he likes Eri (which obviously is not the case, unless Harima has thoughts we don't see). Or Harima went back to school (first time) because of Eri's talk when it was Mikoto.
    Why he left school and why he comes back aren’t related.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    Once again if Harima believed Eri hated him after all the time they spent together, and here I say it again, Eri has a long way to go. And don't respond this time with, "But Eri doesn't hate him" because that doesn't mean anything. Yes we all know Eri doesn't hate Harima, but if Harima thought that Eri hated him. I'll say it again. If Harima thought that Eri hated him.

    When one uses the word secondary protagonist you are acknowledging, that there are two converging plot lines with two characters at the central point of that plot line.

    For example, Full Metal Alchemist, the secondary protagonist is Alphonse, and the principle protagonist is Edward. Both are still the main character. It's more like 1 = 1a, 1 = 1b. And yet agaiin, there may be debate whether Harima is the main character or Tenma is the main character and I'll acknowledge that but that still would mean Eri is not the main character. I've already said Tenma is the main female character and Vol. 1 Cover is the proof that she is.
    This doesn’t explain how two suddenly becomes one.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    I've already stated the reaons why the most of the romantic encounters been with Eri. Great number of conflicts, great number of misunderstandings. Even if Eri and Harima had the greatest number of "romantic" encounters that would still suggest that Harima is the main male character and...
    Ever heard of the defence mechanism “rationalization?”

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    That Tenma is the main female character. This point just proves it. So good job. KJ said it himself.
    He seems to be making a joke about her status as main character in the character card.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    The main character usually is introduced in Volume 1 of the manga as the main character. And if Eri isn't the main character around volume five like you said then she isn't the main character and therefore you are deluded. SR will constantly add new people and focus on other storylines in order to write new chapters, it's hard to constantly focus on the main storyline when a manga is as random as SR.

    But the main character will be the main character.
    Watch something like Star Wars or read a series like Gantz. Read a novel like Lord of the Rings.

    Wikipedia:

    Sometimes, a work will initially highlight a particular character, as though they were the protagonist, and then unexpectedly dispose of that character as a dramatic device. Such a character is called a false protagonist.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    You admited it was the main storyline, the main storyline has two protagonist.
    Harima and Tenma are them. So am I beating a dead horse here? Isn't the main story of the manga suppose to be where you derive your main character? What was that? Eri isn't in the main storyline? Oh... so that means....
    Wikipedia:

    A protagonist is a term used to refer to a figure or figures in literature whose intentions are the primary focus of a story.

    It should be pointed out that the protagonist is not always the hero of the story. Many authors have chosen to unfold a story from the point of view of a character who, while not central to the action of the story, is in a position to comment upon it. However, it is most common for the story to be "about" the protagonist; even if the Main Character's actions are not heroic, they are nonetheless usually vital to the progress of the story. Neither should the protagonist be confused with the narrator; they may be the same, but even a first-person narrator need not be the protagonist, as they may be recalling the event while not living through it as the audience is.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon
    The truth is all around you my friend. I can't make you see it.
    Look in the mirror.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  8. #78
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    I'm still waiting to hear why you think Yakumo merely wanted Harima to express his feelings.
    Yakumo knows Tenma loves Karasuma, Yakumo knows Harima loves Tenma, Yakumo at the same time wanted Eri to be with Harima (why she confessed). Is that reason for you enough?

    You're still not explaining how this means she expected a favor from Harima.
    Eri mends the jacket, this is after the relay race where she was "saved" by Harima, jacket was a token of gratitude, Eri + Harima rumoured to be a couple, what do you think she wanted from this?

    Yakumo needed a push from Sarah.
    First, if you need another example of what Yakumo helping out Harima or doing something nice on her own accord, examine the latest chapter.
    Second, Yakumo needed a push from Sarah to help Harima but not to tell him to continue with the manga, that was her own initiative.

    Eri didn't know that Tenma was out in the cold. -> Read the last post.
    Why is the emphasis on Tenma to do the nice things to help out Eri, why not Eri to Tenma at that point? Why did Tenma have to invite Eri to her shrimp party with Harima when Eri never invites Tenma on any of her outings with Harima. They both have things they do alone and things they do together, questioning Tenma's friendship is kind of weird considering how apologetic she was after doing nothing wrong just to fix their friendship.

    Read the sentence right after that, where Yakumo says she's wrong. Read the part where Yakumo calls herself the worst before telling Sarah she slapped Eri.
    It still didn't take the fact that she thought what she was doing right at the time. And for you to take one chapter where she thinks that she was horrible person to paint her as one is kind of hypocritical since Eri did the same thing during 211 (I'm so awful) while in the act of berating her friend without hindsight like Yakumo.

    No. I only expect one from Yakumo.
    Once again, for doing what? I explained what a slap means in Japanese pop culture, you seen the results yourself, and I'll ask you again. How did Eri look after the slap. How did she react. What did she do right afterwards. Does she still harbour resentment for that. Now how is it, that at the same time Eri self admits that she is awful in the process of berating her friend and you don't expect an apology for that.

    Irrelevant. Yakumo doesn't have this knowledge.
    Hm, what about chapter 211 where she finds out about Eri's date with Harima? Hmm...

    Which makes it clear enough that she wasn't helpful.
    She was trying to be helpful, results are the results and that's Harima's decision.

    It's called "trust."
    Yet she doesn't trust Yakumo, Tae, Mikoto, Tenma with Harima in any friendly instance. And it still doesn't refute there is no basis for a relationship until you know the nature of the person you love and who he loves.

    If you think that shouting out your hatred for someone and slapping people is more mature than calmly talking to someone about your problems, feel free.
    Considering you compared Yakumo as a kid with Eri as a teenager, that would be what I considered mature. Jumping to conclusions is immature. Shaving the hair off a person you like because you are jealous is immature. Lashing out at your friend because they are talking with someone you like is immature (207).

    "Homerism" isn't a word.
    Got a dictionary to figure that out? =). I know it's not a real word, I made it up to describe the action of being of homer.

    You're confusing Eri's demands with Harima's demands. Though, I suppose Harima can be like a diva at times...
    They did it to each other (Harima returned the favour). Btw this was in the anime. So I dunno..

    Where did Yakumo do this?
    215, page 7

    Read the Omiai arc, where it's shown that Eri conforms to her parents' wishes, rather than rebelling against them by pushing for her own wishes. So, by this definition of spoiled, Eri fails to qualify.
    You refute your original point which is interesting cause you argued her running away for her not being spoiled but at the same time you argue her conforming to her parent's wishes is an act of not being spoiled interesting. Maybe you are trying to have it both ways. Spoiled children who do run away, usually seek attention, her conforming just proves that her running was an act of getting attention to get what she wants, something that being spoiled means.

    Obviously, Eri would need to be in a state of dependence to desire to be independent.
    This doesn't prove her to be independent. Everyone is in a state of dependence if they are not independent. -_-.

    So? That doesn’t make her spoiled.

    Unsupported statement.
    Why is it Eri has to be the one that is jealous or hurt, why is it that she has a monopoly on Harima. Is her wanting Harima more important than say if Tenma wanted Harima, or Yakumo wanting Harima, or Harima wanting Tenma. Why does her friend have to be alienated in the process. And it's not unsupported, Mikoto, Yakumo, Tenma etc. I was generalizing it a bit however.

    Irrelevant to Yakumo needing to be pushed by Eri.
    How is it irrelevant? Yakumo hanging out with Harima doesn't constitute them being together and you are avoiding the point. Once again, why does Yakumo have to explain anything to Eri, if she does have a relationship with Harima that's none of Eri's business because she does not own Harima. Secondly, when Yakumo was asked not pushed by Eri directly, she told her the truth. It's not Yakumo's business that Eri misunderstands the situation so much.

    Yakumo plainly states in Chapter 215 that she was wrong about her reasons for slapping Eri.
    Yakumo plainly states also that her thoughts when she hit her was that she couldn't forgive anyone that treated Tenma like an idiot. Remember Hanai.

    You make a correlation between Yakumo slapping Eri and the conflict resolving. Correlations do not denote causality. So, you’re making a “could of” statement.
    You are confused. The emphasis is on you to prove otherwise, since you made the case that the slap could of caused a conflict, which it didn't. I only asked you to examine the evidence. Examine what Eri was saying to Tenma. Examing what Eri was thinking at the time. Examine her expressions after the slap. Examine what happen afterwards. Conflict, no? Resolved? Yes. Can't argue with results my friend.

    Eri's name being mentioned motivates Yakumo to think about whom Harima likes.
    Um, this is my point your making here. Remember *sigh*, the emphasis is on you because you said during that chapter, it was an example of Yakumo wanting to bring Tenma and Harima together. I said it was an example of Yakumo thinking who Harima liked. Eri name being mention caused some stir because Yakumo knew that Harima didn't like her.

    None of this changes the fact that Yakumo was thinking about Eri first.
    Nope, cause you argued her being the subject of the sentence was her thinking about Eri being with Harima rather than thinking of Tenma. Once agian I'll repeat it, she was the subject of that line because she was the subject of the other line that Harima talked about. Where was Yakumo's mind throughout the chapter before Eri started to berate Tenma.

    Chapters b43 and 207.
    Like I said, it wasn't Yakumo's fault that she bumped into Harima and Eri trying to look for Sara and Harima cared more about a cat than spending time with Eri. 216 will counter all her "intent" that you interpret.

    This is completely unrelated to my reasoning that Eri believed Yakumo told her she had a relationship with Harima.

    Eri asks Yakumo in the dance because the whole play was an act. This answers the question of why Eri asks, whatever Yakumo said.
    Nope, it has everything to do with it. You think Yakumo said Eri said she misinformed Eri about Harima and Yakumo's relationship in the hidden text. Why on the one hand, right after the the play would Eri ask about the nature of their relationship, wouldn't she have already known? Remember that was a whisper and it was out of the context of the play.

    Some risks she’ll take, others she won’t. The story has been building up to her eventually confess her feelings to Harima.
    So you are saying after all those risk to basically be with Harima, she won't tell him she likes him when given the chance.

    Maybe you shouldn’t have mentioned this in a post unrelated to that, then.
    Just another point to add on that Eri doesn't understand by herself, that usually someone will have to tell her how it is.

    Irrelevant to the issue of Yakumo ending conflicts.
    It's not irrelevant cause there shouldn't be any conflict in the first place. Yakumo doesn't have to explain at that point and time about her relationship with Harima. But when Eri does ask, instead of assume, Yakumo told her the truth.

    Yet, Harima never knows if Tenma’s opinion of him changed.
    Ever heard of the looking-glass self?

    Harima could have said no. That’s why it’s a risk.
    "Could of". How could Harima reject a girl he just saved from a dance (something that doesn't mean a lot considering two guys would dance together).

    The scenes you mention aren’t evidence that Eri understood Yakumo.

    Since not understanding people’s feelings usually results from misunderstanding simple statements...

    Eri believed Tenma was pursuing Harima in Chapter 207.
    Interesting all meaning the same thing that I've presented you evidence and yet you refute with very weak points. 207 was very a pro-Eri chat from Tenma, why had she acted out (just after the shrimp thing too). 202 would of provided much more fodder for Eri believing Tenma was pursuing Harima but she had not acted out? Why not? Why right after the shrimp incident. And remember after 202 on 203, Eri didn't know why Harima was treating Tenma nice. What made her get the big picture? What made her act out? What was it.. hmmmmmmmmmm

    This doesn’t explain how two suddenly becomes one.
    Yes it does. Read FMA, Mice and Men and Sherlock Holmes. Two people, intertwined in the same plot both are the protagonist at the same time.

    Ever heard of the defence mechanism “rationalization?”

    He seems to be making a joke about her status as main character in the character card.

    Watch something like Star Wars or read a series like Gantz. Read a novel like Lord of the Rings.

    Wikipedia:

    Sometimes, a work will initially highlight a particular character, as though they were the protagonist, and then unexpectedly dispose of that character as a dramatic device. Such a character is called a false protagonist.
    Strange you take something off wikipedia to prove a point about a protagonist but at the same time you question it's accuracy on naming Tenma the female protagonist and Harima and male protagonist. Isn't that interesting . OH what's that? OMG, the population of elephants just tripled.

    But since you acknowledged the main storyline (and Eri isn't a main part of the main storyline), acknowledge KJ wrote the main characters down as Tenma and secondary protagonist as Harima and since Tenma hasn't been dispose by a dramatic device all the evidence and plus number of summaries of the manga and the Volume cover of 1 belonging to Tenma and the fact that the first three volumes established Tenma and Harima as the main characters, then there's nothing else to say. If you think Eri is truly the main character, no amount of things that I can say can prove it otherwise. But it just proves your Eri homerism.

    And Tenma isn't your ordinary main character. But the thing is, it still says, main character. And who wrote it?

    BTW, the protagonist of Gantz was always Kei, the protagonist of Star Wars the first trilogy (each seperate movie of the first trilogy) was always Luke. The protagonist of LoTR was always Frodo. So I dunno what you're trying to prove there. They were always decided early as well, not like eight volumes of manga worth later.

    Look in the mirror.
    Oohh. I didn't think you pull the ol' "No you" response.

  9. #79
    luisfcayo is offline Senior Member Regular
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    OMG the two of you can make a whole new book of the Koran together... lol chill they are both good... Eri and Yakumo. In their own way...
    Now stay outside and give each other kisses and hugs untill you repent >=P

  10. #80
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Remember what we are arguing about here, it would save me a lot of trouble.
    My comment refered only to your last post, not to all of your history of posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I direct you to these comments which started the slap debate:
    As i see it, Ultraness never told you that slap really coused the conflict, since he said that it only could have coused it. And yes, slap was born not only from jealousy (as Ultraness said) but from will to protect as well (as you said).

    It is funny how both of you are using japanese way of reading this situation - this "wake up call" and "slapping senior" moments - while not agreeing to hear the other one. Perhaps both are true? Also, whatever Yakumo meant by it, it doesn't interfering with slap actually having different role from Yakumo what Yakumo herself wanted it to be. After all, Eri did woke up.

    I will not comment on slap being a right or wrong thing to do, since its simply useless to and won'ty lead to any conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    "What interpretations that are made in manga are so bad? I just don't understand this line."
    All this "bad" interpretations are about manga, not in it. Am I wrong?


    Also, I request all of those who want to discuss who-the-fuck-is-main-character issue to go to a new thread and not go off-topic here.

 

 
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