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  1. #41
    3955elits is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Oh. it would have great impact - it's just not that impact that Yakumo would wish for after confessing. Harima would be totally scared and maybe ashamed that he treated her like that when she had such feelings toward him. Moreover, she is Tenma's sister - what would happen if he just rejected bluntly ? I can't see Tenma being happy about that. Meeting her afterwards wouldn't be an option either and he needs her help. The moment Yakumo confesses to Harima, will be also his funeral.
    agreed. except that:maybe...and just maybe harima finally can get over tenma but it is very highly unlikely and he decide to going out with tenma's younger sister....IMO that way he could see and can be with tenma all the time but that's just my opinion....


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  2. #42
    eviscerator is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Oh. it would have great impact - it's just not that impact that Yakumo would wish for after confessing. Harima would be totally scared and maybe ashamed that he treated her like that when she had such feelings toward him. Moreover, she is Tenma's sister - what would happen if he just rejected bluntly ? I can't see Tenma being happy about that. Meeting her afterwards wouldn't be an option either and he needs her help. The moment Yakumo confesses to Harima, will be also his funeral.
    I think Harima would evade giving a straight reply because he'd be completely thrown off balance by the confession. Of course, considering that Yakumo is perfectly aware that he doesn't like her romantically, I don't think she would confess. If the breaking point thing happens, it would take a really big event to make it happen. But I agree that Tenma will not like Harima rejecting Yakumo.
    You make your face a mask. A mask to hide your face. A face to hide the pain. A pain that eats your heart. A heart nobody knows.

  3. #43
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Some fans will not like developments other fans will. Mangaka need to learn that they can't please everyone, otherwise their stories go nowhere and they make everybody mad about the lack of progress.
    That's kind of ironic thing to say considering how much time he spends on each character (school rumble has an extensive cast of people and KJ still
    manages to keep track of everyone's relationship status)

    Yakumo hooking the two up in the chapter right after that strongly suggests she did want them to be together.
    Once again, I've said already that was a ploy to help Harima open up to Tenma and maybe let out his feeling for her.

    It is an act of deception. It's also Yakumo interpreting Harima in trouble and doing what she thinks will help him out. But, she's not truly helping him at all; in that case, the truth would have sufficed better. All Harima had to say was that he was there because he wanted to be with Tenma (or his friends)
    Nope, you are blaming Yakumo for that instance. Remember Harima was the one trying to deceive Tenma. Yakumo just tried to save face for him. If you saw a friend sort of like choking on his own breath when looking at a food he hates, are you going to call him out infront of everyone. Especially a guy as prideful as Harima? Yakumo wouldn't do something like that. Eri on the other hand...

    Not really. It's more like I'm trying to antagonize you, heh. It's true that she wants the best for both Harima and Tenma, but she's come across a situation where the two do not necessarily coincide. I think it's a shame that Kobayashi hasn't been properly developing this potential conundrum, as I believe Yakumo may need to learn to step aside and not interfere, sometimes
    Well that's weird since my first stance on this chapter was that it was a refreshing chapter with a glimmer of Onigiri revival. But I can see that makes you a little uptight. Eri has interfered plenty of times with Harima relationship with Tenma in a more jealous and impulsive way that is usually based on misunderstanding. Yakumo has a full understanding of Harima to the point that she knows very little of what she says will have an impact on his affections for Tenma. That's the difference between the two. You see there's this thing in story that every mangaka or author need to progress it. And it's conflict. Eri is someone who can consistantly cause conflict within individual relationships. While Yakumo tries to do the action that is the opposite of conflict and that is resolve it. She knows if she confesses to Harima there would be a conflict of interest between Harima and Tenma, so she self-decides not to. Eri does the opposite. She causes conflict with her and Tenma during the lobster thing and beyond. Is that the best for Tenma and Harima. Forcing Harima to choose between two things he loves (Tenma and mnaga) or alienating Tenma because she is jealous and misunderstands her feelings for Harima? You paint Eri as the saint but Yakumo as the deceptive manipulator.

    And why does Harima do this instead of going immediately to Tenma after he believes Tenma loves him (again)? Why does the knowledge that Eri loves him prevent him from moving towards Tenma?

    And you seem to forget that Eri was an acquaintance to Harima, then an enemy, then his nemesis, then more of a frienemy, then something more like a friend. If this keeps up...
    Why does he run away from the school?

    Once again, it was a blow to his pride. What would think when you go out on a limb to reject someone you think likes you and then having her flat out denying it. "The reputation I had built came crashing down". After Karasuma brings him out from his depression, the minute he sees Tenma he gets excited and forgets all about that situation.

    And as far as progression, it took Tae one chapter to move on Harima (and he was moved) but still he had to reject her the same way he rejected Eri. Eri has progressed to not be enemies with Harima but that's not saying alot. Yakumo never had to become enemies to become friends with Harima. She was always a friend.

    Ah, Yakumo has a breaking point, just like everyone else. If it gets to be too much for her, Iím sure she could snap and confess to him, though I donít think it would make an impact on him.
    That's where you and I differ. Harima had already learned from Yakumo that Eri liked him but he still rejected Eri. You can't deny that. But as far as Yakumo confessing to Harima, no one know how Harima will act. Right now all Harima sees in Yakumo is a friend and maybe a confession will make him see the light =). Or maybe Yakumo will get rejected the same way every girl not named Tenma is.

    There's scenes like the one they pair up in the Sports Festival that hinted further development down the line. Furthermore, Mikoto and Asou are lesser characters; main characters can't hook up with someone for no apparent reason like minor characters can. Of course, itís possible that Harima can get attached to Rinko, but itĎs not going to happen.
    They were major characters at their arc and time. You are trying to compare them like 200+ chapters later.

    ---

    I'll say this so it pleases your Eri vision a bit. Eri has a better chance than Yakumo to go for Harima and it is because I've already said that most shonen mangas follow the love/hate archetypes and because conflict causes progression. However, Yakumo has consistantly been there for Harima. She pulled him out of many jams (instead of creating jams for him unlike some characters), she was one who got him back into manga and she is the one out of all the characters in SR that understands him the best (Eri had to been told by Yakumo who Harima loves).

    Yakumo and Harima also share one thing in common with each other. They both have goals that were at the very beginning of manga that they still have to complete and is a common motif throughout the story . Yakumo has that to please that ghost girl thingy and find who she truly loves (she likes Harima but probably still struggling with herself about it) and Harima has to confess to Tenma.

    You are too tunneled-vision to see anything other than Eri-Harima pairing but there is also the possibility of Tenma-Harima (since they are the most developed character) and the slight slight possibility of Yakumo. Where I differ from you is I understand the realities of school rumble (very likely Eri or Tenma ending) but that doesn't mean I don't support Yakumo. Where you differ from me is you feel Harima has feelings for Eri which is non-existent to this point..

    Yakumo = friend of Harima
    Eri = friend of Harima?
    Tenma = love interest of Harima

    The best thing Eri did was flat out deny she didn't love Harima when he rejected her, because it would of been the death of flag to that point. Now that is key deception.

  4. #44
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That's kind of ironic thing to say considering how much time he spends on each character (school rumble has an extensive cast of people and KJ still
    manages to keep track of everyone's relationship status)
    Yeah, and people are frequently complaining about a lack of progress of late.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again, I've said already that was a ploy to help Harima open up to Tenma and maybe let out his feeling for her.
    And where did Yakumo ever say that she just wanted Harima to open up to Tenma?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yakumo just tried to save face for him.
    Indeed, and the method she chose to do so involved fooling her sister.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    If you saw a friend sort of like choking on his own breath when looking at a food he hates, are you going to call him out in front of everyone. Especially a guy as prideful as Harima?
    Yes, because he was being a total idiot for believing they would care that he doesn't like shrimp. In Harima's case, he really needs to learn that people can like him for who he is, and that he doesn't need to become the person he thinks other people will like.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri has interfered plenty of times with Harima relationship with Tenma in a more jealous and impulsive way that is usually based on misunderstanding.
    I can't think of any times Eri tried to interfere with the two's relationship. Please, remind me of when this happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yakumo has a full understanding of Harima to the point that she knows very little of what she says will have an impact on his affections for Tenma.
    Actually, she's just given up. Yakumo has done nothing to try and effect his affections for Tenma, nor has she actually seen anyone attempt to do so; she made an arbitrary decision that his feelings for Tenma are obstinate with nothing to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri is someone who can consistently cause conflict within individual relationships.
    Eri isn't really someone that causes conflict. Rather, she's a character that encounters and goes through conflict. I think you're mistaking her confrontational nature for something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    While Yakumo tries to do the action that is the opposite of conflict and that is resolve it.
    Really? I thought that Yakumo slapping Eri did the opposite of this, and that Eri was the one that made the step forward to resolve things between her and Yakumo after the play arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    She knows if she confesses to Harima there would be a conflict of interest between Harima and Tenma, so she self-decides not to.
    Is this so? It seems more likely that Yakumo doesn't believe it would affect Harima and decides not to risk anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri does the opposite. She causes conflict with her and Tenma during the lobster thing and beyond.
    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Eri caused any conflict during the lobster thing, as she did nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Is that the best for Tenma and Harima? Forcing Harima to choose between two things he loves (Tenma and manga?)
    Eri didn't actually force him to decide between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Or alienating Tenma because she is jealous and misunderstands her feelings for Harima?
    There's nothing wrong with staying away from a friend when you're mad at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You paint Eri as the saint but Yakumo as the deceptive manipulator.
    It's all done to counter your portrayal of Yakumo as a saint and Eri as a deceptive manipulator.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again, it was a blow to his pride. What would think when you go out on a limb to reject someone you think likes you and then having her flat out denying it?
    I certainly wouldn't abandon school, especially if I didnít even like the girl. He definitely overreacted, and his response to the Eri's rejection of his rejection was strikingly similar to the way he acted when Tenma "dumped" him.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    "The reputation I had built came crashing down".
    That's an odd thing for Harima to say, considering his reputation did not come crashing down.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And as far as progression, it took Tae one chapter to move on Harima (and he was moved) but still he had to reject her the same way he rejected Eri.
    Tae told Harima she had feelings for him, while Eri did not. Itís not quite the same thing to reject a direct confession as it is to reject a second-hand confession.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri has progressed to not be enemies with Harima but that's not saying alot.
    It means thereís a strong element of change in their relationship, which you canít really say for any of Harimaís other relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yakumo never had to become enemies to become friends with Harima. She was always a friend.
    She'll always be a friend, too, at this rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Harima had already learned from Yakumo that Eri liked him but he still rejected Eri. You can't deny that.
    No. I just don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    But as far as Yakumo confessing to Harima, no one know how Harima will act. Right now all Harima sees in Yakumo is a friend and maybe a confession will make him see the light =).
    No, it doesn't work that way. He doesnít have any gross misunderstandings in his relationship with Yakumo that a confession could correct to enable him to see her in a romantic light.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    They were major characters at their arc and time. You are trying to compare them like 200+ chapters later.
    They've always been secondary characters. That was as true a hundred chapters ago as it is now.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri had to been told by Yakumo who Harima loves.
    This never happened. Furthermore, Eri had every reason to believe Harima loved her for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    But there is also the possibility of Tenma-Harima since they are the most developed character.
    I'm not sure what makes you think Tenma and Harima are the most developed characters, since Tenma has been mostly static from the beginning and you view Harima as an unchanging character.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  5. #45
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    And where did Yakumo ever say that she just wanted Harima to open up to Tenma?
    It is implied after she realizes his feelings for Tenma and chose to sent Tenma instead of Harima to help him out with the manga.

    Indeed, and the method she chose to do so involved fooling her sister.
    Once again you misinterpret this. The emphasis is on Harima wanting to fool Tenma not on Yakumo wanting to fool Tenma. You misunderstand the situation so I'll explain again how it is different. Harima wants to spend time with Tenma by eating lobster with her, something he hates. Harima is preparing himself to eat the lobster when Yakumo sees the situation he is in and helps him save face. Yakumo action come from wanting to help Harima and that is the emphasis and not wanting to help him deceive. The emphasis on deception is Harima. Did you think Yakumo came across the situation and thought, "I'll help Harima deceive Tenma so they can be together." That's how I feel you're interpreting it. It was more like of a reactive action rather than a planned action. But I'm glad you brought that up because in both instance, you and Eri both misjudge Yakumo in that chapter. Sometimes people do things nice for friends without expecting an advance in their relationships. (Ahem, unlike --)

    I can't think of any times Eri tried to interfere with the two's relationship. Please, remind me of when this happened.
    Eri's confrontation with Tenma on chapter 207 comes to mind. Alienation of Tenma so she goes into a depression on 208 comes to mind.

    Actually, she's just given up. Yakumo has done nothing to try and effect his affections for Tenma, nor has she actually seen anyone attempt to do so; she made an arbitrary decision that his feelings for Tenma are obstinate with nothing to back it up.
    I find that interesting since that's the point you've been arguing against me since the beginning. Yakumo has given up, but it's a self decision. It's not like Harima is in on it and it can be reversed. "Her arbitrary decision that his feelings for Tenma are obstinate with nothing to back it up" is actually true though and that's called understanding. You can't deny that his feelings for Tenma are to this point nothing less than completely obstinate. So Yakumo got that one right.

    Eri isn't really someone that causes conflict. Rather, she's a character that encounters and goes through conflict. I think you're mistaking her confrontational nature for something else.
    Hm, really. Her fight with Mikoto at the beginning? Her fight with Tenma? Her fight with Yakumo? Her fight with Harima (many times over the manga)? I think you better put your Eri sunglasses off.

    Really? I thought that Yakumo slapping Eri did the opposite of this, and that Eri was the one that made the step forward to resolve things between her and Yakumo after the play arc.
    Uh, you didn't see the consequences of the slap. The slap was symbolic as well as physical to Eri (get your act together, stop ignoring your friend). Did it cause conflict? Not really, Eri and Tenma got back together. So I don't know what point you are triyng to prove with that. Eri was the one who made the step forward during the play arc but it was her fault in the beginning for misunderstanding the situation and causing the conflict in the first place.

    Is this so? It seems more likely that Yakumo doesn't believe it would affect Harima and decides not to risk anything.
    That may be the case but if that were so it would apply to Eri as well.

    I'm not sure where you got the idea that Eri caused any conflict during the lobster thing, as she did nothing.
    Lobster thing and beyond. It was a reference to her tiff with Tenma after the event.

    Eri didn't actually force him to decide between the two.
    214 will say otherwise.

    There's nothing wrong with staying away from a friend when you're mad at them.
    Think about why she's mad at her. Shes mad at her for Harima liking her. Tenma was a victim of consequence. She didn't do anything wrong, you think there's nothing wrong with that I find your definition of friendship disturbing.

    I certainly wouldn't abandon school, especially if I didn’t even like the girl. He definitely overreacted, and his response to the Eri's rejection of his rejection was strikingly similar to the way he acted when Tenma "dumped" him.
    That's an odd thing for Harima to say, considering his reputation did not come crashing down.
    Remember how Harima was after something as trivial as his beard was gone, or his pants fell down during the race. He's a macho guy with a lot of pride.

    Tae told Harima she had feelings for him, while Eri did not. It’s not quite the same thing to reject a direct confession as it is to reject a second-hand confession.
    Heh, I see you are in denial. Harima was absolutely sure that Eri liked him when he rejected him. That's why he came crashing down. I'll ask you this if Eri had said she did love him at that point what would Harima say? You know the answer.

    She'll always be a friend, too, at this rate.
    Considering how much she misunderstands her friends and Harima that's debatable. Who knows, between Mikoto/Tenma/Yakumo, Akira is the only one left that she hasn't misunderstood about liking Harima. Maybe they'll become enemies at that point =).

    It's all done to counter your portrayal of Yakumo as a saint and Eri as a deceptive manipulator.
    Well, look back at the post you are the one that started your flaming Eri rhetoric. I just wanted to set you down to reality. Yakumo has her faults (too shy, too reserved) but I can make a huge list of Eri faults that you seem to overlook or blamed it on someone else.

    They've always been secondary characters. That was as true a hundred chapters ago as it is now.
    They were primary characters for the basketball arch. Harima was a secondary during that arch and Eri was non-existent.

    This never happened. Furthermore, Eri had every reason to believe Harima loved her for a long time.
    Nope, like most things her initial belief that Harima liked her was due to a misunderstanding. And yes, that did happen. Eri was still confused after the lobster debacle why Harima would rather spend time with Tenma (I mean, she blamed it on her being a klutz and people wanting to take care of him). In that lobster chapter Eri was going to tell Yakumo that Harima loved her but Yakumo set her straight and told her that Harima really loved Tenma (shrimp was the word they used but shrimp was a symbol for Tenma). You got to reread the chapter because this is another thing you misinterpret. By doing this Yakumo was the one who told Eri that Harima liked Tenma.


    No, it doesn't work that way. He doesn’t have any gross misunderstandings in his relationship with Yakumo that a confession could correct to enable him to see her in a romantic light.
    You are not the mangaka and you can not say that for sure. Only KJ can decide if Harima has that. And if you mean that then it applies for Eri as well.

    I'm not sure what makes you think Tenma and Harima are the most developed characters, since Tenma has been mostly static from the beginning and you view Harima as an unchanging character.
    They are the most developed storywise from beginning. They are the first two characters to get their own chapters (followed by Yakumo). Even though they haven't changed KJ still spent the most time with them trying to progress their relationships (Tenma with Karasuma/Harima with Tenma/Yakumo/Eri).

  6. #46
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    It is implied after she realizes his feelings for Tenma and chose to sent Tenma instead of Harima to help him out with the manga.
    How is it implied?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again you misinterpret this. The emphasis is on Harima wanting to fool Tenma not on Yakumo wanting to fool Tenma. You misunderstand the situation so I'll explain again how it is different. Harima wants to spend time with Tenma by eating lobster with her, something he hates. Harima is preparing himself to eat the lobster when Yakumo sees the situation he is in and helps him save face. Yakumo action come from wanting to help Harima and that is the emphasis and not wanting to help him deceive. The emphasis on deception is Harima. Did you think Yakumo came across the situation and thought, "I'll help Harima deceive Tenma so they can be together."
    This doesn’t change the fact that Yakumo ended up deceiving her sister, no matter how you explain her motives.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Sometimes people do things nice for friends without expecting an advance in their relationships. (Ahem, unlike --)
    Unlike Eri? Hahaha. I hope I don't need to give examples of Eri being nice to people without expecting an advance in her relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri's confrontation with Tenma on chapter 207 comes to mind. Alienation of Tenma so she goes into a depression on 208 comes to mind.
    This did not interfere with Harima's attempts to woo Tenma in the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    "Her arbitrary decision that his feelings for Tenma are obstinate with nothing to back it up" is actually true though and that's called understanding.
    We'll need to wait and see how accurate her perception was before we can call it understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You can't deny that his feelings for Tenma are to this point nothing less than completely obstinate.
    I can't deny that his feelings for Tenma are obstinate, as they are, but it's easy enough to doubt that those feelings are genuine and will remain obstinate.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Hm, really. Her fight with Mikoto at the beginning? Her fight with Tenma? Her fight with Yakumo? Her fight with Harima (many times over the manga)? I think you better put your Eri sunglasses off.
    Those are all examples of Eri being part of a conflict, not as an instigator of conflict. Furthermore, I think it's much more important to consider how Eri is capable of resolving the conflicts you mention and moving on as a better person.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Uh, you didn't see the consequences of the slap. The slap was symbolic as well as physical to Eri (get your act together, stop ignoring your friend). Did it cause conflict? Not really, Eri and Tenma got back together. So I don't know what point you are triyng to prove with that.
    There's nothing symbolic about the slap. It's just a violent consequence of Yakumo's issues with her sister and her anger at Eri for attempting to change Harima.

    My point would be that Eri is far from being someone that wants to start conflict and that things are the other way around. Yakumo did something that could have easily led to conflict (disrespecting seniors is very unacceptable in Japan), yet Eri prevents this by not allowing the situation to escalate.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri was the one who made the step forward during the play arc but it was her fault in the beginning for misunderstanding the situation and causing the conflict in the first place.
    The misunderstanding would not have existed in the first place had Yakumo not been so vague about her relationship with Harima. And by her own admission in Chapter 215, Yakumo knew that Eri liked Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That may be the case but if that were so it would apply to Eri as well.
    No. Eri is constantly putting her heart at risk in her attempts to start a relationship with Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Lobster thing and beyond. It was a reference to her tiff with Tenma after the event.
    Oh, and how did Eri start that? The tiff is more a result of Tenma being so inconsiderate of her friend’s feelings and, more than anyone else, Harima. You can trace all of Eri’s feuds back to Harima being reticent about clearing up Eri’s misunderstanding after his “confession” to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    214 will say otherwise.
    Chapter 217 will say that the scenario was fake and that his manga's life was never at stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Think about why she's mad at her. Shes mad at her for Harima liking her. Tenma was a victim of consequence. She didn't do anything wrong, you think there's nothing wrong with that I find your definition of friendship disturbing.
    Unfortunately, Eri misunderstands that Tenma is pursuing Harima, so there's a sense of betrayal on her side. The events in Chapter 208 convince her of this and this is why she becomes more aggressive in the next chapter, saying she won't "lose" to Tenma. And when Eri realizes this is a misunderstanding, she strongly desires to patch things up with Tenma.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Remember how Harima was after something as trivial as his beard was gone, or his pants fell down during the race. He's a macho guy with a lot of pride.
    I do not remember Harima leaving school when his beard got cut nor when his hat came off. He's only done that before when he believed Tenma rejected him.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I'll ask you this if Eri had said she did love him at that point what would Harima say? You know the answer.
    Indeed. Better than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Considering how much she misunderstands her friends and Harima that's debatable. Who knows, between Mikoto/Tenma/Yakumo, Akira is the only one left that she hasn't misunderstood about liking Harima. Maybe they'll become enemies at that point =).
    I was talking about Yakumo in the passage you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Well, look back at the post you are the one that started your flaming Eri rhetoric. I just wanted to set you down to reality.
    Ha, I'm trying to do the same thing to you. But I'm not suggesting you have problems with reality at the same time, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped resorting to ad hominem attacks against my credibility, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yakumo that Harima loved her but Yakumo set her straight and told her that Harima really loved Tenma (shrimp was the word they used but shrimp was a symbol for Tenma). You got to reread the chapter because this is another thing you misinterpret. By doing this Yakumo was the one who told Eri that Harima liked Tenma.
    Yakumo says shrimp, and there's nothing to suggest that Eri understood her. If Eri had, the whole fiasco in Chapter 214 would have been unnecessary and a whole lot of trouble before then could have probably been avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You are not the mangaka and you can not say that for sure. Only KJ can decide if Harima has that. And if you mean that then it applies for Eri as well.
    I can't decide the future of the manga, but I can decide what's believable and what's not. And Harima has shown no latent feelings for Yakumo that would make it credible for him to fall for her after a confession, so I find it unlikely Kobayashi will ever have a development like Harima falling for Yakumo.

    And, of course, what I said applies for Eri. Fortunately, Harima does have some gross misunderstandings about Eri that a confession could correct to allow him to view her in a romantic light.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    They are the most developed storywise from beginning. They are the first two characters to get their own chapters (followed by Yakumo). Even though they haven't changed KJ still spent the most time with them trying to progress their relationships (Tenma with Karasuma/Harima with Tenma/Yakumo/Eri).
    Both are called the main characters in the beginning, but neither of them really get development I would expect from a protagonist. Only Eri has, so far. More importantly, though, Tenma and Harima's relationship hasn't been the focus of the story.
    Last edited by ultraness; 08-12-2007 at 12:07 PM.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #47
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    How is it implied?
    Because she sends Tenma instead of herself. That's pretty obvious.

    This doesn’t change the fact that Yakumo ended up deceiving her sister, no matter how you explain her motives.
    Nope, theres a big difference cause you used that act as a plan to bring Tenma and Harima together and deceive Tenma. The end result may deceive Tenma but the emphasis wasn't Yakumo deceiving, it was Yakumo helping Harima out and Harima deceiving. There's a big difference but it doesn't matter to you because Yakumo is always at fault.

    Unlike Eri? Hahaha. I hope I don't need to give examples of Eri being nice to people without expecting an advance in her relationships.
    Example please or that's an empty statement.

    This did not interfere with Harima's attempts to woo Tenma in the least.
    Yeah it did, with Tenma off trying to apologize for nothing and not hanging out with Harima the two couldn't really hang together (Tenma and Harima).

    We'll need to wait and see how accurate her perception was before we can call it understanding.
    It's 237 chapters accurate. I have yet to see any hint otherwise. He's spent time with other girls but he's totally oblivious to them. You said Yakumo has no proof that his feelings for Tenma are obstinance, well theres no proof that they aren't and heavy proof that they are.

    I can't deny that his feelings for Tenma are obstinate, as they are, but it's easy enough to doubt that those feelings are genuine and will remain obstinate.
    See above. 237 still nothing. I already said unless Harima has a huge revelation or something big happens it won't change.

    Those are all examples of Eri being part of a conflict, not as an instigator of conflict. Furthermore, I think it's much more important to consider how Eri is capable of resolving the conflicts you mention and moving on as a better person.
    Wrong again. Eri sunglasses. Mikoto fight happen because of her jealousy and bad mouthing Mikoto behind her back. Yakumo fight happen because she misunderstood the situation between Yakumo and Harima. Tenma fight happen because she misunderstood her and Harima's relationship and is jealous. Harima fight happen because it happens (love-hate archetype).

    There's nothing symbolic about the slap. It's just a violent consequence of Yakumo's issues with her sister and her anger at Eri for attempting to change Harima.

    My point would be that Eri is far from being someone that wants to start conflict and that things are the other way around. Yakumo did something that could have easily led to conflict (disrespecting seniors is very unacceptable in Japan), yet Eri prevents this by not allowing the situation to escalate.
    Violent consequence? It was a wake up call. Eri knew she was wrong, she knew she wronged Tenma. The simple fact is Yakumo did the right thing, Tenma and Eri made up. Once again you paint Yakumo as the jealous one. Yakumo didn't do it because "Eri was attempting to change Harima". That couldn't be farther from the truth. She did it because she cared for Tenma and Eri left her out in the cold both physically and metaphorically. The action caused no conflict, it was dramatic but not conflicted.

    The misunderstanding would not have existed in the first place had Yakumo not been so vague about her relationship with Harima. And by her own admission in Chapter 215, Yakumo knew that Eri liked Harima.
    215 happened way after the play arch so that is an empty point. Yakumo may have known after the play how she felt but during the situation of confrontation (the witch vs. prince part). Eri lashed out first out of jealously. Yakumo was the one trying to explain and defend. Yakumo was the one on the defense. Yakumo eventually ended it with what she said. You have a bad sense of history in SR, that's whole statement is something a revisionist would say.

    No. Eri is constantly putting her heart at risk in her attempts to start a relationship with Harima.
    Like when she denied she liked Harima after he rejected her?

    Oh, and how did Eri start that? The tiff is more a result of Tenma being so inconsiderate of her friend’s feelings and, more than anyone else, Harima. You can trace all of Eri’s feuds back to Harima being reticent about clearing up Eri’s misunderstanding after his “confession” to her.
    Once again you misplace the blame on another character. Had Eri known Tenma didn't do anything wrong (and she didn't) there wouldn't be any tiff. Look time and time again Eri will lash out at her friends jealously because she misunderstands either their feelings or Harima's. Unless you can refute this, this point stands.

    Chapter 217 will say that the scenario was fake and that his manga's life was never at stake.
    That doesn't prove anything. During the time Harima still thought his manga was at risk, so that situation was still as real as he thought it was. So Eri had force him to pick between two things he loved.

    Unfortunately, Eri misunderstands that Tenma is pursuing Harima, so there's a sense of betrayal on her side. The events in Chapter 208 convince her of this and this is why she becomes more aggressive in the next chapter, saying she won't "lose" to Tenma. And when Eri realizes this is a misunderstanding, she strongly desires to patch things up with Tenma.
    That statement just made you admit Eri was wrong in that. It was her fault for misunderstanding (as usual).

    I do not remember Harima leaving school when his beard got cut nor when his hat came off. He's only done that before when he believed Tenma rejected him.
    Harima pride was blown out with the Eri confession/rejection. The beard and the relay race were both small losses in his pride that he got emo over but they just prove how badly he gets upset over lost of pride. For the Tenma thing however, he left school twice, and it took him a while and it took a lot for him to come back. For Eri it took like one chapter to reconcile him?

    I was talking about Yakumo in the passage you quoted.
    The she'll always be a friend? You don't know that since you are not the mangaka.

    Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I'll ask you this if Eri had said she did love him at that point what would Harima say? You know the answer.
    Indeed. Better than you do.
    I dunno it would of been pretty clear she would of been shot down. Harima brought her up to shoot her down. The answer was clear.

    Ha, I'm trying to do the same thing to you. But I'm not suggesting you have problems with reality at the same time, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped resorting to ad hominem attacks against my credibility, as well.
    Well when you say things like "no i'm trying to antagonize you" I tend to take offense. Your credibility is already low since you misinterpret a lot of the manga. Like ->

    Yakumo says shrimp, and there's nothing to suggest that Eri understood her. If Eri had, the whole fiasco in Chapter 214 would have been unnecessary and a whole lot of trouble before then could have probably been avoided.
    Heh, Yakumo said it "Harima loves shrimp" directly before ->

    Eri: "The one he is in love with is.." (it is implied she will say herself)
    Yakumo: "You're wrong."
    Yakumo: "You still haven't noticed yet?"
    Yakumo: "Harima-san loves shrimp."

    Only a die hard Eri fan like you would probably not know what she said in the context so I'll spell it out for you. Eri and Yakumo both know Harima hate shrimp. Okay? Why would Yakumo interject with Harima loves Shrimp right before she said "The one he is in love with is..". And why would 2 chapters later in 207, Eri confronts Tenma. Put two and two together, you can do that right? =). As far as 214 go, Eri knew Harima liked Tenma but just not how much. It was a test.

    And, of course, what I said applies for Eri. Fortunately, Harima does have some gross misunderstandings about Eri that a confession could correct to allow him to view her in a romantic light.
    That would apply to Yakumo and any other girl as well. You see, like I've been saying all alone now, until Harima has a revelation or something extreme happen he won't see any girl in that way besides Tenma.

    ---

    You can talk about progression that Eri has made that's all fine but Harima is the one with the emphasis, he is the main character. Tenma is second main character. Until one of them (Harima or Tenma) changes their mind or resolves their own loves Eri or Yakumo can't really do anything. Harima and Tenma are still the core focal point of the manga.
    Last edited by aulzon; 08-12-2007 at 01:36 PM.

  8. #48
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Because she sends Tenma instead of herself. That's pretty obvious.
    How does this imply that Yakumo just wanted to give Harima a shot at Tenma without wanting Harima to be successful?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Nope, theres a big difference cause you used that act as a plan to bring Tenma and Harima together and deceive Tenma. The end result may deceive Tenma but the emphasis wasn't Yakumo deceiving, it was Yakumo helping Harima out and Harima deceiving.
    When did I say the shrimp was part of a plan to bring Tenma and Harima together?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    There's a big difference but it doesn't matter to you because Yakumo is always at fault.
    Ah, that's just your own opinion and irrelevant to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Example please or that's an empty statement.
    I was hoping you would just think of some yourself since there’s so many of them. Oh well, I’ll supply some for you.

    First example: Eri secretly gets Karasuma to cheer Tenma on during a baseball game.

    Second example: Eri anonymously writes a story to dash Akira's personal doubts about her writing abilities.

    Third example: Eri steps in to console Mikoto after her break up with Asou.

    Fourth example: Eri anonymously returns Harima's jersey after sewing his name on it.

    Fifth example: Eri defends Harima from Tenma's accusations that he's a monkey. Since she does so unaware that he‘s present, it’s clear that she’s not doing this to gain favor.

    Notice how often Eri does generous, kind acts in secret and on her own initiative? By doing so she proves that she does not want anything in return, and demonstrates herself to be on of the more truly selfless characters in the series, if not the most. I certainly find it more noble than the way Yakumo constantly complies with what people ask her, as every time Yakumo does so it looks like she’s searching for others’ approval.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Yeah it did, with Tenma off trying to apologize for nothing and not hanging out with Harima the two couldn't really hang together (Tenma and Harima).
    The simple fact that Eri did not expect Tenma to apologize to her should tell you just how false this notion is.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    It's 237 chapters accurate. I have yet to see any hint otherwise. He's spent time with other girls but he's totally oblivious to them. You said Yakumo has no proof that his feelings for Tenma are obstinance, well theres no proof that they aren't and heavy proof that they are.
    Read some chapters like Chapters 198, or 210 for Harima recognizing Eri as a girl, and something like Chapter 152 for a sign that Harima's views could change. Maybe try reading something like Chapter 216 where Harima is more upset by the idea of Eri breaking his trust than his manga getting destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    See above. 237 still nothing. I already said unless Harima has a huge revelation or something big happens it won't change.
    If Harima is going to have a huge revelation, there'd be signs before hand. There's enough ambiguity around Harima's actions around Eri for it to be easily possible for Harima to realize he likes her, and the way Harima fell for Tenma and acts around have always ringed false to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Wrong again. Eri sunglasses. Mikoto fight happen because of her jealousy and bad mouthing Mikoto behind her back. Yakumo fight happen because she misunderstood the situation between Yakumo and Harima. Tenma fight happen because she misunderstood her and Harima's relationship and is jealous. Harima fight happen because it happens (love-hate archetype).
    Well, I could explain that it wasn't Eri's fault that everything happened so she would misunderstand so many people, but I'm not going to bother anymore. It's not whether you start the conflict that matters, but how you deal with it. And, so far, Eri has done well in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Violent consequence? It was a wake up call. Eri knew she was wrong, she knew she wronged Tenma.
    Heh, a wake up call? All Yakumo did was agree with everything Eri said about Tenma by not denying any of it and attacking Eri. Nothing in Yakumo’s manner implied her goal was anything more than simple revenge. Plus, ironically, Yakumo attacks Eri for acting just like Yakumo did as kid in Chapter 174, demonstrating she’s rather lacking in the empathy department. This is nothing worth applauding.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The simple fact is Yakumo did the right thing, Tenma and Eri made up.
    It's a false reconciliation because Eri was never able to explain why she was mad at Tenma, and Tenma is destined to "screw up" again and start the whole thing over again, as a result. Ending arguments with violence and no discussion never works out, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again you paint Yakumo as the jealous one. Yakumo didn't do it because "Eri was attempting to change Harima". That couldn't be farther from the truth. She did it because she cared for Tenma and Eri left her out in the cold both physically and metaphorically. The action caused no conflict, it was dramatic but not conflicted.
    "That's why I can't forgive anyone that treats her like an idiot. I had to do what nee-san couldn't, no matter what she said. That's what I thought when I slapped her, but...I was wrong...I know...I know that Sawachika-senpai is in love with Harima-sempai."

    We know from Chapter 211 that Yakumo learned of Harima's "date" with Eri before the slap, and the quote from Yakumo (bold added) states that Yakumo thought she slapped Eri to protect Eri, but that this was not true. Yakumo proceeded to name her knowledge of Eri's feelings immediately afterward strongly indicates that this was the true reason behind the slap.

    Furthermore, Yakumo has a history of acting against Eri and her relationship with Harima to make this idea consistent with the rest of the series. It's Yakumo's friends mentioning Eri in Chapter 206 that motivates her to act for Oudou, and Yakumo (disguised as Iori) forces Harima to go to the Tsukamoto house (instead of Eri's) by running off.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    215 happened way after the play arch so that is an empty point. Yakumo may have known after the play how she felt but during the situation of confrontation (the witch vs. prince part). Eri lashed out first out of jealously. Yakumo was the one trying to explain and defend. Yakumo was the one on the defense. Yakumo eventually ended it with what she said.
    Chapter 215 is highly relevant to everything Yakumo does because it's one of the few chapters that really develops her character. And, Yakumo expresses her knowledge of Eri's feelings in that chapter. Chapter b29 (right after the play arc) suggests how much Yakumo knew about Eri’s feelings for Harima, and Chapter 215 confirms it.

    Also, Yakumo was not trying to explain the truth, as she actually confirms Eri’s suspicions that she has a relationship with Harima (interestingly, this makes Eri withdraw). Yakumo is the one that started on the defence, but she’s the only one to actually land a blow in their duel. There is a reason why Yakumo considers herself such a terrible person in Chapter 215, you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Like when she denied she liked Harima after he rejected her?
    I'm talking about scenes like the one she sewed a jersey for him, took the initiative to ask him to dance, asked him to stay longer at his house, invited him to her birthday party, invited him to a shrimp party, and asked him out on a date. She'll deny feelings for him for a long time (it's part of her archetype and personality not to tell him outright), but she'll continue to take chances she believes will reveal her feelings to him, regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Had Eri known Tenma didn't do anything wrong (and she didn't) there wouldn't be any tiff.
    Indeed. It's unfortunate that Tenma acted in a manner that Eri could misunderstand as a betrayal of trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Look time and time again Eri will lash out at her friends jealously because she misunderstands either their feelings or Harima's. Unless you can refute this, this point stands.
    This point doesn't matter so long as Eri can resolve any conflict she has with her friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That statement just made you admit Eri was wrong in that. It was her fault for misunderstanding (as usual).
    Oh, it's Eri's fault that Harima did nothing to clear the confusion between he and Eri so that she would believe he loves her so Eri wouldn't think that it was her friend pursuing Harima (and not the other way around)? And, it's Eri's fault that Tenma chose to console Harima instead of her friend at Eri's birthday party after Eri got upset by Harima's actions, despite Tenma knowing firsthand how much she hates it whenever someone gets between her and Karasuma? Really, you can't just place blame on one person without considering the whole picture. All three of these characters (Yakumo, as well) contributed to the rift between Eri and Tenma, and that's why I consider who ends the conflict as far more important than who started it (Tenma did most of the work resolving it, in this case).

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The beard and the relay race were both small losses in his pride that he got emo over but they just prove how badly he gets upset over lost of pride.
    Both of those are examples of Harima getting worried Tenma won’t like him anymore, rather than hits to his pride.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    For the Tenma thing however, he left school twice, and it took him a while and it took a lot for him to come back. For Eri it took like one chapter to reconcile him?
    I don’t mind the thought that Eri can reconcile quicker than Tenma can, though it’s not really true.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The she'll always be a friend? You don't know that since you are not the mangaka.
    I said she’ll always be a friend at the rate their relationship is changing (which is not at all). Again, I don’t need to write a series to have a good idea about how it will end (or won’t end).

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I dunno it would of been pretty clear she would of been shot down. Harima brought her up to shoot her down. The answer was clear.
    Did he? It looked more like he was probing to find out the truth behind her feelings, and it sure is strange that he gets so upset when his goal is essentially accomplished by her “admission.”

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri and Yakumo both know Harima hate shrimp. Okay? Why would Yakumo interject with Harima loves Shrimp right before she said "The one he is in love with is..". And why would 2 chapters later in 207, Eri confronts Tenma. Put two and two together, you can do that right? =)
    If she understood Yakumo, then why was she so shocked by what she overheard in Chapter 207? If Eri was certain that Harima liked Tenma, why was it so easy for her to reconcile with Tenma when Harima’s sentiments never changed in her opinion? It makes more sense that Eri believed Tenma was chasing Harima and felt bad when she realized this wasn’t true in Chapter 211. Eri certainly had suspicions that Harima likes Tenma between Chapters 202-213, but there’s nothing to confirm that she believed it prior to Chapter 214.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    That would apply to Yakumo and any other girl as well. You see, like I've been saying all alone now, until Harima has a revelation or something extreme happen he won't see any girl in that way besides Tenma.
    What kind of gross misunderstandings does Harima have about anyone else? He thought that Eri hated him (while it’s completely the opposite), so her telling him she loves him would be more mind-blowing than anyone else confessing to him. Just look at how hard it was for him to believe she liked him in Chapters 216-217 and how easily he was convinced he made a misunderstanding. He never appeared fully convinced Eri liked him, and I don’t think much will beyond Eri telling him directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You can talk about progression that Eri has made that's all fine but Harima is the one with the emphasis, he is the main character. Tenma is second main character. Until one of them (Harima or Tenma) changes their mind or resolves their own loves Eri or Yakumo can't really do anything. Harima and Tenma are still the core focal point of the manga.
    What made you decide that Harima was the main character? He’s not the one that’s forced to go through the most dramatic conflict (that’s Eri), he’s not the one that has changed the most since the series began (that’s Eri), he’s not the one who’s perspective the story is told from (that’s Eri or Tenma, in most cases), and he’s not even the one described as the main character by the author (that’s Tenma).

    Is it just because he’s the only male character to frequently appear in a shounen series? Because he hasn’t met any common standards for main protagonists.
    Last edited by ultraness; 08-12-2007 at 05:11 PM.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #49
    aulzon is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    How does this imply that Yakumo just wanted to give Harima a shot at Tenma without wanting Harima to be successful?
    Because shes uniting them. Look essentially if Harima spends more time with Tenma he will let out his feelings.

    When did I say the shrimp was part of a plan to bring Tenma and Harima together?
    You implied it, you implied that Yakumo had deceived Tenma and Yakumo had conspired to bring Tenma and Harima together (did you or did you not).

    Notice how often Eri does generous acts in secret and on her own initiative? By doing so she proves that she does not want anything in return, and demonstrates herself to be on of the more truly selfless characters in the series, if not the most. I certainly find it more noble than the way Yakumo constantly complies with what people ask her, as every time Yakumo does so it looks like she’s searching for others’ approval.
    My first statement was when did she do something nice for Harima without expecting an advance in their relationship.

    The simple fact that Eri did not expect Tenma to apologize to her should tell you just how false this notion is.
    The notion was whether or not Eri interfered with Tenma and Harima not whether or not how surprised she was at her apology.




    What made you decide that Harima was the main character? He’s not the one that’s forced to go through the most dramatic conflict (that’s Eri), he’s not the one that has changed the most since the series began (that’s Eri), he’s not the one who’s perspective the story is told from (that’s Eri or Tenma, in most cases), and he’s not even the one described as the main character by the author (that’s Tenma).

    Is it just because he’s the only male character to frequently appear in a shounen series? Because he hasn’t met any common standards for main protagonists.
    You are beyong delusional if you think this. Harima is the main character and KJ will confirm that. Eri is no where near the main character. Tenma is second main character. Harima is the main. If you think this then you are far beyond logic and reason.

    Oh, it's Eri's fault that Harima did nothing to clear the confusion between he and Eri so that she would believe he loves her so Eri wouldn't think that it was her friend pursuing Harima (and not the other way around)? And, it's Eri's fault that Tenma chose to console Harima instead of her friend at Eri's birthday party after Eri got upset by Harima's actions, despite Tenma knowing firsthand how much she hates it whenever someone gets between her and Karasuma? Really, you can't just place blame on one person without considering the whole picture. All three of these characters (Yakumo, as well) contributed to the rift between Eri and Tenma, and that's why I consider who ends the conflict as far more important than who started it (Tenma did most of the work resolving it, in this case).
    Eri danced around the bush for far too long. She assumed Harima liked her instead of asking. It's her fault for progressing her misunderstanding for as long as she did. She got her answered when Harima found out though. Look this would all be easier if Eri just understood Harima better. But nooo, she has to do whatever she can to kartwheel around it and misunderstand pretty much every situation.

    Heh, a wake up call? All Yakumo did was agree with everything Eri said about Tenma by not denying any of it and attacking Eri. Nothing in Yakumo’s manner implied her goal was anything more than simple revenge. Plus, ironically, Yakumo attacks Eri for acting just like Yakumo did as kid in Chapter 174, demonstrating she’s rather lacking in the empathy department. This is nothing worth applauding.
    Did it cause a rift between Tenma and Eri? Did the slap end their fued or fuel it.? You argued that what she did brought conflict or would of brought conflict but it didn't. And it was worth applauding. The simple fact is Eri is spoiled and up to this point no one had the guts to tell her off. Eri told Tenma who was asking for her apology for something she had no fault in but something Eri misunderstood her that it was her fault "you went and did this to yourself." Even Eri's own mind was telling her that she was wronging Tenma but she still kept on speaking. And as far as 174, lol, that be interesting you compare the maturity of Eri for acting like Yakumo did as a KID. Yakumo kind of grew up, but Eri on the other hand...

    It's a false reconciliation because Eri was never able to explain why she was mad at Tenma, and Tenma is destined to "screw up" again and start the whole thing over again, as a result. Ending arguments with violence and no discussion never works out, you know.
    Sort of like the way Eri handled the whole play experience? Pot. Kettle. Black.

    But great blame it on Tenma for Eri's misunderstanding. Eri sunglasses. Btw you're still on the emphasis to prove that that slap was a conflicting action. Because it didn't cause any conflicts. That was our main arguing point, you still haven't proved it without "woulda, coulda".

    It's Yakumo's friends mentioning Eri in Chapter 206 that motivates her to act for Oudou,
    Bad interpretation of chapter, I've already proved that. Chapter 206 was just clarifying who Harima liked. Her friends wanted to know whether or Harima wanted to be with Eri, Yakumo or Tenma. Yakumo knew it to be Tenma. Arguing in circles with you.

    "That's why I can't forgive anyone that treats her like an idiot. I had to do what nee-san couldn't, no matter what she said. That's what I thought when I slapped her, but...I was wrong...I know...I know that Sawachika-senpai is in love with Harima-sempai."

    We know from Chapter 211 that Yakumo learned of Harima's "date" with Eri before the slap, and the quote from Yakumo (bold added) states that Yakumo thought she slapped Eri to protect Eri, but that this was not true. Yakumo proceeded to name her knowledge of Eri's feelings immediately afterward strongly indicates that this was the true reason behind the slap.

    Furthermore, Yakumo has a history of acting against Eri and her relationship with Harima to make this idea consistent with the rest of the series. It's Yakumo's friends mentioning Eri in Chapter 206 that motivates her to act for Oudou, and Yakumo (disguised as Iori) forces Harima to go to the Tsukamoto house by running off.
    Misinterpretation of the chapter as well and Yakumo's feeling. Notice Yakumo's face after Harima told Yakumo he was on a date with Eri. Where was Yakumo's mind focused on? Not on Harima's date but on Tenma and where she was. I've yet to see her act out on Eri and Harima's relationship in a primary nature (rather than a secondary nature like letting Tenma go for her to help with Harima's manga) so it's something you must made in your head.

    Also, Yakumo was not trying to explain the truth, as she actually confirms Eri’s suspicions that she has a relationship with Harima (interestingly, this makes Eri withdraw). Yakumo is the one that started on the defence, but she’s the only one to actually land a blow in their duel. There is a reason why Yakumo considers herself such a terrible person in Chapter 215, you know?
    That blow wasn't intentional. You might think it to be so but Yakumo was apologetic, maybe it was because Eri was blinded out of jealousy that she couldn't land a hit on Yakumo. And yes, Yakumo was the one that told Eri that nothing was going on between the two and she was only helping out Harima. Had Eri listen instead of insisting on fighting...

    I'm talking about scenes like the one she sewed a jersey for him, took the initiative to ask him to dance, asked him to stay longer at his house, invited him to her birthday party, invited him to a shrimp party, and asked him out on a date. She'll deny feelings for him a long time (it's part of her archetype and personality to tell him outright), but she'll continue to take chances she believes will reveal her feelings to him, regardless.
    All that action though and she stills denies it when the truth is presented to her by Harima though. I don't consider asking him to dance after he saved Eri from costing the class the festival risky. And she had her chance to reveal her feelings to Harima but she denied to save face. Had she, it would of been the end for flag.

    Indeed. It's unfortunate that Tenma acted in a manner that Eri could misunderstand as a betrayal of trust.
    It's unfortunate Eri had to misunderstand the situation like many times before (Tae, Mikoto, Yakumo).

    Both of those are examples of Harima getting worried Tenma won’t like him anymore, rather than hits to his pride.
    His pride directly relates to him thinking Tenma won't like him anymore. Even after the Eri thing it relates to it. Eri is a friend of Tenma after all.

    Oh, it's Eri's fault that Harima did nothing to clear the confusion between he and Eri so that she would believe he loves her so Eri wouldn't think that it was her friend pursuing Harima (and not the other way around)? And, it's Eri's fault that Tenma chose to console Harima instead of her friend at Eri's birthday party after Eri got upset by Harima's actions, despite Tenma knowing firsthand how much she hates it whenever someone gets between her and Karasuma? Really, you can't just place blame on one person without considering the whole picture. All three of these characters (Yakumo, as well) contributed to the rift between Eri and Tenma, and that's why I consider who ends the conflict as far more important than who started it (Tenma did most of the work resolving it, in this case).
    It's apparant that Eri is a creature of much confusion and entertainment. KJ has said misunderstanding play a major part in SR and no better person misunderstands and causes so much conflict and entertainment at the same time (Eri). You can't deny yourself that Eri has been the starter and breeder of most of the conflicts. She is her own worse enemy on this one. Not Yakumo, not Tenma. She knows Tenma perfectly well to know that Tenma doens't care about anyone besides Karasuma.

    I said she’ll always be a friend at the rate their relationship is changing (which is not at all). Again, I don’t need to write a series to have a good idea about how it will end (or won’t end).
    Well I always said if this manga follows the same formula as most shonen mangas do then Eri and Harima will get together some how. KJ has not risked the status-quo yet however. And let's get this clear, Harima thought he knew how Eri felt about him and was going to reject her anyways. "I can't follow my love while I'm being loved by someone else." Afterwards he was so sure that Eri did like him that he came crashing down.

    If she understood Yakumo, then why was she so shocked by what she overheard in Chapter 207? If Eri was certain that Harima liked Tenma, why was it so easy for her to reconcile with Tenma when Harima’s sentiments never changed in her opinion? It makes more sense that Eri believed Tenma was chasing Harima and felt bad when she realized this wasn’t true. Eri certainly has suspicions that Harima likes Tenma, but there’s nothing to confirm that she believed it prior to Chapter 214.
    She was not shocked, there isn't a look on her face of shocked when she heard the two talk. Remember this came after Harima went "There's no way I'm in love with that girl." The look was more anger and jealousy than shocked. And once again you got to read the lobster chapter again. Read over what I told you.

    I'll do it again since you are oblivious to this:

    Eri: "The one he is in love with is.." (it is implied she will say herself)
    Yakumo: "You're wrong."
    Yakumo: "You still haven't noticed yet?"
    Yakumo: "Harima-san loves shrimp."

    Yakumo and Eri both know Harima hates shrimp. Why would she say this after she said "The one he is in love with is..." You don't seem to understand this.

    I don’t mind the thought that Eri can reconcile quicker than Tenma can, though it’s not really true
    I was arguing the point that it took a long time to take Harima back to school after learning Tenma likes Karasuma and Tenma thinks he going out with Eri.

    What kind of gross misunderstandings does Harima have about anyone else? He thought that Eri hated him (while it’s completely the opposite), so her telling him she loves him would be more mind-blowing than anyone else confessing to him. Just look at how hard it was for him to believe she liked him in Chapters 216-217 and how easily he was convinced he made a misunderstanding. He never appeared fully convinced Eri liked him, and I don’t think much will beyond Eri telling him directly.
    Um, after all those dates and archs they had together Harima still thought Eri hated him? Uhh... if that's true you're arguing that Harima still has a longer way to go with Eri than I thought. And yeah, he was absolutely sure Eri liked him and he still rejected her nonetheless, it was just too bad and fortunate for Eri she denied it rather than facing her fate (which would of been, don't go after Harima).

    What made you decide that Harima was the main character? He’s not the one that’s forced to go through the most dramatic conflict (that’s Eri), he’s not the one that has changed the most since the series began (that’s Eri), he’s not the one who’s perspective the story is told from (that’s Eri or Tenma, in most cases), and he’s not even the one described as the main character by the author (that’s Tenma).

    Is it just because he’s the only male character to frequently appear in a shounen series? Because he hasn’t met any common standards for main protagonists.
    Harima is the main character and it's delusional for you to think that Eri is the main character. You said yourself, look at the big picture. The main storyline here is Harima confessing to Tenma. It's the storyline that started it all. Obviously you must of forgot the over 5 volumes at the beginning that mostly focused on Harima, and KJ said Harima was the main character (and Nara was supposed to be the main character but he got scrapped for Harima). Tenma is the main female character of the storyline. Eri may have gone through the most dramatic conflicts but that's because she is a dramatic conflict in herself.

    Once again, Eri glasses. Volume 1 Cover of every manga usually tells you who the main characters are of the manga.
    Last edited by aulzon; 08-12-2007 at 05:17 PM.

  10. #50
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Because she's uniting them. Look essentially if Harima spends more time with Tenma he will let out his feelings.
    You're still not saying how this indicates she doesn't want Harima to be successful in his endeavours.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You implied it, you implied that Yakumo had deceived Tenma and Yakumo had conspired to bring Tenma and Harima together (did you or did you not).
    I said that Yakumo had intentions to hook up Tenma and Harima, but I never mentioned the shrimp as part of her dastardly machinations. When I look back to when I first mentioned the shrimp, I brought it up to imply that she doesn't want (or isn't helping) Harima to express his feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    My first statement was when did she do something nice for Harima without expecting an advance in their relationship.
    Read my fourth and fifth examples, as they feature Eri being nice to Harima without expecting anything in return from him. Please, take some time to actually go through my posts before making replies like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The notion was whether or not Eri interfered with Tenma and Harima not whether or not how surprised she was at her apology.
    Interfering in a relationship is only bad if you're aware of what you're doing, but do it anyways. Tenma gets some slack from me for interfering with Eri's attempts to form a relationship with Harima because she's unaware of what she's doing to her friend, though I believe she should certainly know better. On the other hand, I find Yakumo's interference reprehensive (and Yakumo does, too) specifically because she's conscious of what she's doing. If you can't find any examples of Eri purposely trying to sabotage Tenma and Harima's relationship, don't bother mentioning her "interference."

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You are beyong delusional if you think this. Harima is the main character and KJ will confirm that. Eri is no where near the main character. Tenma is second main character. Harima is the main. If you think this then you are far beyond logic and reason.
    Ad hominem. Please, don't assault my sanity instead of my ideas. All you do is convince me that I'm right when you do this, in addition to appearing childish.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri danced around the bush for far too long. She assumed Harima liked her instead of asking.
    When someone tells you that he/she likes you, how are you supposed to think they mean that he/she doesn't like you? And how is Eri supposed to know that the forces of nature conspired to create a marriage charm for Harima and her? Perhaps, you should consider the reasons Eri misunderstood him, and keep in mind that she was never entirely convinced that Harima liked her.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Did it cause a rift between Tenma and Eri? Did the slap end their fued or fuel it.? You argued that what she did brought conflict or would of brought conflict but it didn't.
    I was talking about the slap having the potential to create a new feud between Eri and Yakumo, but it didn't due to Eri's maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    The simple fact is Eri is spoiled and up to this point no one had the guts to tell her off.
    You demonstrate a poor understanding of Eri's character if you believe her to be "spoiled. The word "spoiled" means someone's character, or personality, has been damaged due to pampering. Of course, Eri appears as another one of those rich, spoiled princesses at the beginning of the series, but most people realize that this isn't really true for Eri (hence, why she's so popular). Just look at examples of Eri saying her desire to move away from her parents and live on her own (Chapter 193), the way she corrects Harima when he refers to her father's house as Eri's (Chapter 196), or the various examples I mentioned in my last post, and you should be able to figure out that Eri is far removed from a "spoiled" princess.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Eri told Tenma who was asking for her apology for something she had no fault in but something Eri misunderstood her that it was her fault "you went and did this to yourself." Even Eri's own mind was telling her that she was wronging Tenma but she still kept on speaking.
    When you believe someone hurt you, like how Eri thought Tenma was hurting her, it's quite natural to seek an apology. This is what Yakumo should have done instead of slapping Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And as far as 174, lol, that be interesting you compare the maturity of Eri for acting like Yakumo did as a KID. Yakumo kind of grew up, but Eri on the other hand...
    Well, Eri was close to approaching a true resolution with Yakumo before the slap disrupted everything. Furthermore, I don't know how you can consider Eri more childish than Yakumo when Yakumo is the one using physical violence, which is one of the most childish thing someone can do (considerably more than discussing your feelings).

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Sort of like the way Eri handled the whole play experience? Pot. Kettle. Black.
    It's sort of like the play experience, except no one slapped Eri then so she was able to reach an understanding with Yakumo in the play arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Btw you're still on the emphasis to prove that that slap was a conflicting action. Because it didn't cause any conflicts. That was our main arguing point, you still haven't proved it without "woulda, coulda".
    No, I took a different approach by diminishing the effectiveness of the slap. And I said that the temporary resolution between Eri and Tenma will break; I wasn't speaking of "would have" or "could have" in this instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Bad interpretation of chapter, I've already proved that. Chapter 206 was just clarifying who Harima liked. Her friends wanted to know whether or Harima wanted to be with Eri, Yakumo or Tenma. Yakumo knew it to be Tenma. Arguing in circles with you.
    Look at page five on Chapter 206, where Yakumo is shown to be reacting to her friends putting the Eri-doll next to the Harima-doll. I'm talking about what motivated Yakumo to "clarify" whom Harima liked, so it' doesn't argue against your earlier analysis of the chapter.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Misinterpretation of the chapter as well and Yakumo's feeling. Notice Yakumo's face after Harima told Yakumo he was on a date with Eri. Where was Yakumo's mind focused on? Not on Harima's date but on Tenma and where she was.
    Actually, Yakumo's thoughts are focused on [i]"Eri's"i] location in that chapter, not her sister. If you pay close attention to her dialogue, you'lll she says "Sawachika-senpai...was not with nee-san yesterday?" (Eri is the subject in the sentence, not Tenma) instead of "Nee-san...wasn't with Sawachika-senpai yesterday?" With this in mind, try refuting my point again.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I've yet to see her act out on Eri and Harima's relationship in a primary nature (rather than a secondary nature like letting Tenma go for her to help with Harima's manga) so it's something you must made in your head.
    How about re-reading Chapter 206 and reading Chapter b43, which I mentioned in my last post?

    Also, I recommend against making slurs against me such as describing me as being out of my head. There's no reason not to be polite.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And yes, Yakumo was the one that told Eri that nothing was going on between the two and she was only helping out Harima.
    When Eri is "fighting" with Yakumo in Chapter 123 on page five, she asks "There's no deception behind those words...am I wrong?" in response to Yakumo saying she spent a long time with Harima, though Eri is actually asking if Yakumo is in a relationship with Harima. And the close-up of Yakumo's eyes indicate Yakumo understands the underlying question.

    Yakumo's response is hidden, but Eri's reaction highly suggests Yakumo told Eri she was in a relationship with Harima. Meaning, Yakumo contributed to Eri's misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    All that action though and she stills denies it when the truth is presented to her by Harima though.
    Well, at least you've acknowledged that she has made some effort to get his attention now, which agrees with my counter to your idea that Eri doesn't believe she can change Harima's feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I don't consider asking him to dance after he saved Eri from costing the class the festival risky.
    This is strange, as it was the riskiest of all because she asked to dance with him in front of the entire class.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    His pride directly relates to him thinking Tenma won't like him anymore. Even after the Eri thing it relates to it. Eri is a friend of Tenma after all.
    If this is true, his pride wouldn't have been damaged by Eri as Tenma had nothing to do with Eri "rejecting" his rejection.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    It's apparant that Eri is a creature of much confusion and entertainment. KJ has said misunderstanding play a major part in SR and no better person misunderstands and causes so much conflict and entertainment at the same time (Eri). You can't deny yourself that Eri has been the starter and breeder of most of the conflicts. She is her own worse enemy on this one. Not Yakumo, not Tenma. She knows Tenma perfectly well to know that Tenma doens't care about anyone besides Karasuma.
    Read my earlier post about how I don't care about this and consider who ends the conflict as significantly more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And let's get this clear, Harima thought he knew how Eri felt about him and was going to reject her anyways. "I can't follow my love while I'm being loved by someone else."
    That quote only supports the notion that Harima likes Eri as there's a very simple explanation for him not being able to follow his love while being loved by Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I'll do it again since you are oblivious to this:

    Eri: "The one he is in love with is.." (it is implied she will say herself)
    Yakumo: "You're wrong."
    Yakumo: "You still haven't noticed yet?"
    Yakumo: "Harima-san loves shrimp."

    Yakumo and Eri both know Harima hates shrimp. Why would she say this after she said "The one he is in love with is..." You don't seem to understand this.
    Alas, you don't seem to understand that you're supposed to counter my refutation to this point by explaining how Eri is shown to have knowledge that Harima likes Tenma after this scene. You need to prove your perspective on this passage with quotes from later chapters, not prove the meanings of later quotes with this passage. Until then, you're not countering anything I say in response to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    I was arguing the point that it took a long time to take Harima back to school after learning Tenma likes Karasuma and Tenma thinks he going out with Eri.
    Fine. In this case, consider the context since meeting Eri sped up the process considerably. Also, Harima still hasn't returned to school...

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Uhh... if that's true you're arguing that Harima still has a longer way to go with Eri than I thought.
    Since Eri doesn't hate him, this isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    And yeah, he was absolutely sure Eri liked him and he still rejected her nonetheless, it was just too bad and fortunate for Eri she denied it rather than facing her fate.
    First, Harima refused to acknowledge what Yakumo told him by turning up the volume of his speakers in Chapter 216, then he flat out denied it by telling himself that she hated him in the beginning of Chapter 217 before Tougou made this an impossibility. Later, the way Eri easily convinces him she doesn't love him hints at how weak his conviction was.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Harima is the main character and it's delusional for you to think that Eri is the main character.
    Ad hominem. You do nothing to support your argument that Harima is the main character here, nor to counter my own claims. In addition, you're quite rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    You said yourself, look at the big picture. The main storyline here is Harima confessing to Tenma. It's the storyline that started it all. Obviously you must of forgot the over 5 volumes at the beginning that mostly focused on Harima, and KJ said Harima was the main character (and Nara was supposed to be the main character but he got scrapped for Harima).
    Last time I checked, School Rumble had over seventeen volumes, so you might want to check those other twelve+ volumes when you look at the big picture (twelve is a larger number than five, after all). Supply your source for where Kobayashi called Harima the main character (he's called the secondary protagonist by Kobayashi on the character cards), or your point here is entirely invalid.

    The storyline that started it all is Tenma's quest for Karasuma (first chapter), so the argument that Harima's journey to confess to Tenma beginning the series (while making him the main character) is equally void. Since all that dramatic tension has been building up towards Eri confessing to Harima, now Harima confessing to Tenma would be outweighed by the event of Harima rejecting Eri; in other words, Harima's confession is no longer the main storyline.

    Quote Originally Posted by aulzon View Post
    Once again, Eri glasses. Volume 1 Cover of every manga usually tells you who the main characters are of the manga.
    Tenma is featured on the cover of the first volume, not Harima. Thus, Harima doesn't match this criteria for being the main character, either. As Harima doesn't appear until the sixth volume, he's the sixth-most important character by this standard. Kind of shows you how silly this method of determining the main character can be, doesn't it?
    Last edited by ultraness; 08-13-2007 at 12:08 AM.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 
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