Thread: Chapter 224 Discussion (*Hot Spoilers !!*)

Originally Posted by Jakub

If that was a case, she would consider to stop writing manga at the moment when Karasuma said that he is a manga artist. Why Harima being Karasuma's partner would change anything ?

Read the older posts. NeoSapien already brought this up; here's the reply I gave to him:

Originally Posted by Myself

Tenma never realized that Karasuma should be her rival before; hearing that he's working with Harima could easily remind her this.

Originally Posted by Jakub

Another thing which Tenma could consider is trying to join their team

A possibility I like since it should force Harima's lie to be discovered by Tenma.

Originally Posted by Jakub

I think it was Tenma who selfishly became Harima's rival and he shouldn't be supporting her - it would look really strange if her previous "sensei" dropped his own work just to help her. It would born a question why Harima ever started doing manga and Tenma might get a bad impression of Harima (like : Trying to hook her up by making her a manga assistant - then why she was working so hard ?). Since Harima is the first one to start making manga, he shouldn't be the first one to quit.

I'm not saying Harima should drop his work to help Tenma. I'm saying he should simply support Tenma's decision to become an independent mangaka.

Originally Posted by Jakub

We are considering Tenma here - it's kind of hard to say how much she involved herself with her manga (if it's the same as her study and trying to get Karasuma's heart, then it doesn't seem to serious).
She also never feared Harima (as a potential enemy) but she saw him as rival-friend - It would be really Tenma-like if she said "You two make a great rivals for me, but I will still prevail - yosh ! I need to work hard !!". Tenma is rarely serious about anything and she likes to have fair-play competition (like Togou).

I AGREE!! When Tenma told Harima they would be rivals, her expression was not so serious, and I don't think they have to compete to be the best mangaka, and even so, it's not like Tenma, who is so friendly with Harima try to really compete with him, since both of them can be good mangakas, or even help each other, what would make Harima very happy.

By ultraness:
No, it would not be Tenma-like. Tenma is always serious whenever something involves Karasuma; something I suppose is easy to forget since it's been a while since she's had Karasuma problems.

But at that time Tenma didn't knew Karasuma was a mangaka. And even so, I don't think Karasuma will let Harima's lie go on for too long, but I don't think he will tell the truth so straight foward either

Even if Tenma will have to compete against Karasuma, Karasuma is in a higher level than Tenma and Harima, so the ones who will be competing here will be only Tenma and Harima

Hmm, so much talking about wether Tenma will considerate Karasuma being her rival and she would have to choose about the manga and Karasuma …
1. At the last chap. I think that Tenma is telling Harima that she will draw a manga too, thus making them a rival because of their professions. In here Tenma should thinks all the mangaka as her rival, why would Tenma thinks Harima / Harima Hario as his arc rival while removing Karasuma from the list. When Karasuma told Tenma he write a manga too, there is only an awe in her eyes. She thinks Karasuma as a pro than her, not some rival. Now if after hearing that Karasuma is Hario, why would Tenma thinks that he is a rival. Is Harima Hario that influential to her, i don't think so.
2. Some logic thinking, if done by Tenma should crumble the whole lies. If Karasuma is Hario, then why the heck did Harima needed Yakumo and Tenma's help in the first place ? This is not making sense at all.
3. I would say that Harima is more panicked. And just maybe Karasuma already foresaw this, that's why he didn't want Harima to see Tenma. Karasuma maybe knew that Harima is in a state of depression that he needed to be alone. Harima didn't expected to be seen in Karasuma's house by the one he knows. More over that ones is Tenma. So he desperately make a stupid excuses.

Well, Tenma seems to develop an interest in manga, but I don't see ( at least up to this point ) that she will choose to become a mangaka in the future or that she will love manga more than Karasuma….
And don't u guys think that the excuses Harima used is odd. Hell, he can used other excuses rather than that. It's like Harima already knew that Karasuma told Tenma that Karasuma is also a mangaka. But not that Tenma knew that Karasuma is Nijou Sensei. Now if we assumed that Harima still didn't know the 1st point, why would he bring up Karasuma's name as Hario ? This could trigger Tenma to ask alot about it, in the end revealing that Karasuma is indeed Nijou sensei. Now if we assumed he wanted to impressed Tenma, what point would make Tenma impressed by the fact that Karasuma is Hario. Except that Tenma already knew that Karasuma is an excellent artist. Now if we assumed that Harima wanted to cover what happened between him and Eri, the excuses is invalid in many sides....... ~_~a

Sorry for my bad English…..^_^. This is just a my opinion anyways…

It's a little off-topic but considering lot's of rubbish manga titles which are released - Is there really such rivalry in mangaka world ? Is it so hard to get two pages of shounen jump or shounen sun ? Just my digression..

Originally Posted by Ultraness

I'm not saying Harima should drop his work to help Tenma. I'm saying he should simply support Tenma's decision to become an independent mangaka.

Yeah, your right - I interpreted your post in wrong way, sorry.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

And don't u guys think that the excuses Harima used is odd. Hell, he can used other excuses rather than that. It's like Harima already knew that Karasuma told Tenma that Karasuma is also a mangaka. But not that Tenma knew that Karasuma is Nijou Sensei. Now if we assumed that Harima still didn't know the 1st point, why would he bring up Karasuma's name as Hario ? This could trigger Tenma to ask alot about it, in the end revealing that Karasuma is indeed Nijou sensei. Now if we assumed he wanted to impressed Tenma, what point would make Tenma impressed by the fact that Karasuma is Hario. Except that Tenma already knew that Karasuma is an excellent artist. Now if we assumed that Harima wanted to cover what happened between him and Eri, the excuses is invalid in many sides....... ~_~a

I have few theories about this
a) Harima was thinking lately only about mangas and how great Karasuma is, so it was the first thing it came to his mind
b) Harima, loosing his pride in both encounter with Eri and Tenma, is trying desperately regain it in eyes of Tenma (forgetting the fact that Karasuma isn't known in school as mangaka)
c) KJ doesn't have any ideas and he just needed to come up with something - happens if you need to release new chapter every 7 days. Mangaka of Naruto stopped having new fresh ideas for 100 chapters already (yep, I don't like newest Naruto) so comparing here we could forgive KJ this little plot hole.

Originally Posted by Jakub

It's a little off-topic but considering lot's of rubbish manga titles which are released - Is there really such rivalry in mangaka world ? Is it so hard to get two pages of shounen jump or shounen sun ? Just my digression..

I think what's hard is to maintain that two pages ;D. Well, a little rivalry is there. But not the serious one where they stop talking to each other, and thinking others as enemies, right ?

Originally Posted by Jakub

I have few theories about this
a) Harima was thinking lately only about mangas and how great Karasuma is, so it was the first thing it came to his mind
b) Harima, loosing his pride in both encounter with Eri and Tenma, is trying desperately regain it in eyes of Tenma (forgetting the fact that Karasuma isn't known in school as mangaka)
c) KJ doesn't have any ideas and he just needed to come up with something - happens if you need to release new chapter every 7 days. Mangaka of Naruto stopped having new fresh ideas for 100 chapters already (yep, I don't like newest Naruto) so comparing here we could forgive KJ this little plot hole.

ROFL at the (C). ^_^. Maybe i am too serious ... This is school rumble anyway ^_^

Originally Posted by Jakub

To add arguments - Harima is sweating heavily. It's not just because he is lying, but he also still feels uncomfortable in front of Tenma (he doesn't know how to act). If he tried to put her in bind (which he did, but I think not on purpose) he would have a little different expression.

My observations were made based on Harima's usual behavior around Tenma. Usually, Harima is on his very best behavior around her - he's very careful not to show the slightest bit of attitude or aggression when she's watching.

In this case, what struck me as different was the way in which he spoke. If he was still trying to be nice to her, he could easily have given the same explanation in the usual diffident manner that he uses around her. No matter how you look at it, the phrase "Isn't it obvious?" undermines the person to whom you direct that question - if it really was obvious, then there would be no need for an explanation. Also, from what I've seen, that lightning background usually comes up when there's some sort of veiled anger present.

Harima's usual nervousness around Tenma is expressed by blushing, rather than by sweating.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

I agree. Harima is not the type to come up with Machiavellian schemes on the spur of the moment. Also, his blatant lie is doomed if Karasuma does not play along. Finally, Karasuma has already told Tenma that he is working on a manga, so he is her rival whether or not he is Harima Hario anyway.

I think you answered your own question, in a way. The lie isn't particularly well thought out, as you say - which is why the attempt at deception isn't particularly out of character. He doesn't need to be particularly masterful to be successful - he just needs to be a little bit smarter than Tenma.

Originally Posted by luisfcayo

I dont think Harima would do such a thing especially after Karasuma gave him shelter and food.

He's not doing it to Karasuma - he's doing it to Tenma.

Originally Posted by ultraness

I agree with Swampstorm about Tenma being forced to make a "choice" between manga and Karasuma. Eri and Harima both had to make "choices" recently, so it would make sense for Tenma to have her turn next. I don't think Harima would knowingly put her in such a situation, though.

Here's the trick: Harima's lie cannot make him look better in front of Tenma. Originally, Tenma believed that Harima did his manga by himself. Now, (if she believes him), she thinks that the manga was written by Harima and Karasuma's combined effort. That makes Karasuma look better than he did before Harima's lie, and makes Harima look less impressive. After all, Harima's manga wasn't just his doing anymore - part of the credit goes to Karasuma now. So why would he lie just to give credit to Karasuma?

Given that this is the very first meeting between Harima and Tenma since Tenma declared that she would be rivals with Hario, I find it highly suspicious that the very first words out of Harima's mouth involve that same pen name.

I know that from what we've observed in the past, it seems strange for Harima to do anything detrimental to Tenma, but Harima has never really been in competition with her, before. One thing that we do know, however, is that he has never been able to accept defeat - he stubbornly persists until he gets what he wants.

It's all well and good for Harima to be attracted to Tenma as long as she is his assistant, but can he accept her as a rival, and as an equal? Given what we've seen, I don't think that it's especially likely.

Originally Posted by Jakub

She also never feared Harima (as a potential enemy) but she saw him as rival-friend - It would be really Tenma-like if she said "You two make a great rivals for me, but I will still prevail - yosh ! I need to work hard !!". Tenma is rarely serious about anything and she likes to have fair-play competition (like Togou).

It's not that Tenma is rarely serious (it's actually quite the opposite) but rather, that it's very difficult to take her seriously.

While I'm not entirely certain how Tenma will react, I should point out that during the survival game, Tenma backed down immediately when she was pitted against Karasuma - which was far more trivial than this situation.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

My observations were made based on Harima's usual behavior around Tenma. Usually, Harima is on his very best behavior around her - he's very careful not to show the slightest bit of attitude or aggression when she's watching.

In this case, what struck me as different was the way in which he spoke. If he was still trying to be nice to her, he could easily have given the same explanation in the usual diffident manner that he uses around her. No matter how you look at it, the phrase "Isn't it obvious?" undermines the person to whom you direct that question - if it really was obvious, then there would be no need for an explanation. Also, from what I've seen, that lightning background usually comes up when there's some sort of veiled anger present.

Harima's usual nervousness around Tenma is expressed by blushing, rather than by sweating.

To me, the background looked more like the swirl behind Harima right before he went into the shrimp hallucination, i.e. he was taken so off-guard that he is on the brink of madness.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I think you answered your own question, in a way. The lie isn't particularly well thought out, as you say - which is why the attempt at deception isn't particularly out of character. He doesn't need to be particularly masterful to be successful - he just needs to be a little bit smarter than Tenma.

But the lie would be well thought out if it was intended to put Tenma into a dilemma. I think it was a fairly random lie motivated by Harima panicking about how to explain his presence in Karasuma's house when the truth would not do at all.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

He's not doing it to Karasuma - he's doing it to Tenma.

Here's the trick: Harima's lie cannot make him look better in front of Tenma. Originally, Tenma believed that Harima did his manga by himself. Now, (if she believes him), she thinks that the manga was written by Harima and Karasuma's combined effort. That makes Karasuma look better than he did before Harima's lie, and makes Harima look less impressive. After all, Harima's manga wasn't just his doing anymore - part of the credit goes to Karasuma now. So why would he lie just to give credit to Karasuma?

But Harima is diminishing Karasuma. Instead of being a famous mangaka in his own right, Harima has made Karasuma into his own, possibly junior, collaborator.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

While I'm not entirely certain how Tenma will react, I should point out that during the survival game, Tenma backed down immediately when she was pitted against Karasuma - which was far more trivial than this situation.

Tenma stood her ground against Karasuma until he finished his long, emotional (and scripted by Akira) speech on the band's dreams. Right now, Tenma has no reason to choose between her manga and Karasuma - her rivalry with Hario is presumably a friendly one. It will only become a dilemma if Tenma decides that she can't be competing with Karasuma at all, which shouldn't be the case since she knew that he was working on his own manga already.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

To me, the background looked more like the swirl behind Harima right before he went into the shrimp hallucination, i.e. he was taken so off-guard that he is on the brink of madness.

Harima acted pissed off for most of Chapter 204 and he was while the black swirl was around him then, too. While there is an element of madness to Harima in Chapter 224, what he says and the black swirl indicate anger from Harima.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

But the lie would be well thought out if it was intended to put Tenma into a dilemma. I think it was a fairly random lie motivated by Harima panicking about how to explain his presence in Karasuma's house when the truth would not do at all.

The lie has no time to be well thought out, so it doesn't have to be.

Why shouldn't the truth do? It doesn't sound bad to say that he's working on his manga at Karasuma's house with Karasuma giving him assistance.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

But Harima is diminishing Karasuma. Instead of being a famous mangaka in his own right, Harima has made Karasuma into his own, possibly junior, collaborator.

He's not diminishing Karasuma as Tenma knows him; he's elevating his status as far as she knows. Also, Harima doesn't have a good reason to make a connection with Karasuma unless he's trying to give Tenma a dilemma.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

Tenma stood her ground against Karasuma until he finished his long, emotional (and scripted by Akira) speech on the band's dreams. Right now, Tenma has no reason to choose between her manga and Karasuma - her rivalry with Hario is presumably a friendly one. It will only become a dilemma if Tenma decides that she can't be competing with Karasuma at all, which shouldn't be the case since she knew that he was working on his own manga already.

So, say Tenma believes Harima's lie. That'll mean she just turned against Karasuma by making her own manga instead of helping Harima Hario when Hario's manga was in danger of not making the deadline. She gives up against Karasuma during the survival game because her interests clashed with Karasuma's. If she believes Harima, her interests will be clashing against Karasuma's once again so she'll likely give up on her manga briefly.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Harima acted pissed off for most of Chapter 204 and he was while the black swirl was around him then, too. While there is an element of madness to Harima in Chapter 224, what he says and the black swirl indicate anger from Harima.

I think it is mostly fear in this case. Harima is panicking at having to face Tenma while in a servile state relative to Karasuma.

Originally Posted by ultraness

The lie has no time to be well thought out, so it doesn't have to be.

Why shouldn't the truth do? It doesn't sound bad to say that he's working on his manga at Karasuma's house with Karasuma giving him assistance.

But... that is what Harima just said, essentially. The truth would be that Karasuma is a famous mangaka whom Harima acknowledges as a mentor, and Harima is unwilling to admit inferiority to Karasuma in front of Tenma.

Originally Posted by ultraness

He's not diminishing Karasuma as Tenma knows him; he's elevating his status as far as she knows. Also, Harima doesn't have a good reason to make a connection with Karasuma unless he's trying to give Tenma a dilemma.

But telling the truth about Karasuma being Nijou-sensei and Harima's idol would elevate Karasuma far, far more, so making Karasuma his partner is essentially diminishing him from Harima's perspective. And Harima obviously does have a connection with Karasuma as he is in Karasuma's home; he needed to explain it somehow without admitting that Karasuma is "better" than him.

Originally Posted by ultraness

So, say Tenma believes Harima's lie. That'll mean she just turned against Karasuma by making her own manga instead of helping Harima Hario when Hario's manga was in danger of not making the deadline. She gives up against Karasuma during the survival game because her interests clashed with Karasuma's. If she believes Harima, her interests will be clashing against Karasuma's once again so she'll likely give up on her manga briefly.

Tenma's interests are not clashing against Karasuma at all here. In the survival game, only one of them could win, but here, both of them (or all three of them if we look at the truth) can co-exist as mangaka and friendly rivals. There is only a clash if Tenma chooses to see it as one.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

But the lie would be well thought out if it was intended to put Tenma into a dilemma. I think it was a fairly random lie motivated by Harima panicking about how to explain his presence in Karasuma's house when the truth would not do at all.

It uses an incredibly common strategy, actually - to put someone between a rock and a hard place. It doesn't really seem all that clever.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

But Harima is diminishing Karasuma. Instead of being a famous mangaka in his own right, Harima has made Karasuma into his own, possibly junior, collaborator.

No matter how you look at it, Harima is giving credit for his work to Karasuma. So, unless Tenma considers Harima's manga to be terrible, it still makes Karasuma look a little more impressive and Harima a little less impressive than before.

If Harima did want to put down Karasuma, though, there plenty of other ways for him to do it, without giving up any credit for the works of Hario. For one, he could simply say that he's there to help Karasuma out of a slump in his manga writing to achieve the same effect. There's no need for him to go out of his way to say that Karasuma is Hario.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

Tenma stood her ground against Karasuma until he finished his long, emotional (and scripted by Akira) speech on the band's dreams.

Ultimately, her decision was still the same.

Originally Posted by NeoSapien

Tenma's interests are not clashing against Karasuma at all here. In the survival game, only one of them could win, but here, both of them (or all three of them if we look at the truth) can co-exist as mangaka and friendly rivals. There is only a clash if Tenma chooses to see it as one.

Not if Tsukamoto Ten-ten and Harima Hario are both competing for the same debut spot in Dankosha.