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  1. #121
    liekiamhiung is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Owww, Freeter. seriously i was confused when u say to Ultraness "If u are who i think you are". Seriously i was thinking that u accused him that he is Townsock ???
    And Swampstorm, how the hell could u derive that fact from his posting ? .

    Well, Freeters. Flag isn't totally at win yet just got a new "temporary" supporter in the form of Yakumo. So chill down .
    But i think what is the most important later on is Harima's reaction.
    Knowing Eri loving her ( if KJ didn't decide to use the language joke on this one ), could make him stay away from Eri.... That will be quite a blow for Eri
    LONG LIVE HIME-SAMA. MY LIFE FOR RUMBLANDIA!


  2. #122
    Freeter is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
    That was pretty much a direct quote. What's wrong with that?
    Anyone with the least bit of common sense can tell what she's implying with that statement.

    The problem is, though, ultraness doesn't just go to this forum alone. I barely have the time and energy to make the SR posts that I do as it is, across three different forums.
    I forum hop as well, you don't see me complaining.

    There's nothing wrong with people sharing arguments. That exchange of ideas is what helps everyone refine their thoughts on the series.
    Of course. The problem here though, is that certain facts established by the author himself are being misrepresented.

    Why don't you just ask a mod and be done with it? I doubt that using multiple accounts is allowed, anyways.
    If I actually cared that much I would've done so already. But this amuses and disappoints me equally, so I don't.

    Alternatively, you're welcome to drop by my home forums at WannabeFansubs. There are plenty of people who can attest to the fact that I am who I am.
    Not much activity over there, and I know most of you just stalk Townsocks anyway...

    Freeter, I know that you're upset about the manga situation, but don't let it control you. You're a good person, and you've made plenty of interesting posts in the past. Nobody is trying to antagonize you - this is just a debate.
    Tell Mini Jesus that. He seems to have missed the boat there.

    My friendship for yours.
    Just accept that she had feelings for Harima, and we'll call it even.

    I didn't see anything even remotely close to Yakumo confessing her feelings towards Harima to the readers. I didn't even see anything regarding her feelings towards Harima at all, just her thinking about the different ways Eri was "stronger" than her.
    Then you didn't see the last page. That's why you're confused.

    But every point you made has been counterpointed by others then dropped completely by you in favor for things like "it's obvious"(which is a quote from you on page 11 I believe)
    Every point? Go back to page 7 and see if anyone's tackled those yet. You're more than welcome to try.

    I tend to judge people by their understanding of the subject at hand
    As do I. And it seems some of you still don't get it.

    Well, Freeters. Flag isn't totally at win yet just got a new "temporary" supporter in the form of Yakumo. So chill down
    Eri has enough supporters. She doesn't need another one. That and Yakumo got shortchanged just for this (I didn't expect her to win out in the end, but Jin didn't even give her a chance).

  3. #123
    liekiamhiung is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter View Post
    Eri has enough supporters. She doesn't need another one. That and Yakumo got shortchanged just for this (I didn't expect her to win out in the end, but Jin didn't even give her a chance).
    Well, Eri and Yakumo did have a lot of supporter in real life, but Tenma isn't .
    Well, like i said KJ could always twist things up. Besides i highly doubt that things will go so smoothly.. Yakumo only got low on her self esteem, if she has someone ( like Sara or Tenma or even the ghost girl ) to encourage her to chase for her love ( presuming that Yakumo like Harima ). I think she will stop supporting Flag or Odou. And there is Harima's reaction...
    LONG LIVE HIME-SAMA. MY LIFE FOR RUMBLANDIA!


  4. #124
    Isenfolme is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Wow. Seems this is degenerating a wee bit. Maybe if we backtrack and dig out a map and a compass we can work out where we left the debating high ground?

    Freeter - I am on your side as far as Yakumo having feelings for Harima goes. I think it has been implied throughout the manga ever since the AC broke way back when (that's where it started, but it's become more obvious since then) and is one of its key elements. It's certainly one of the things that makes Yakumo such an interesting character for me.

    I think it's part of the manga's style that people don't get thought boxes saying "I love this person" very often at all. That's what keeps things interesting - you wonder about it and debate about it, and have things revealed in the fullness of time. It's its own kind of suspense. It took a very long time of us KNOWING that Eri was into Harima (against her own wishes, almost) before she actually went and spelled it out for us in words of one syllable. Tenma and Harima are different - their love is the source of most of the comedy throughout the series - I'm talking about the Mikotos and the Ichijous and the Asous of the manga.

    One of the most obvious and central facets of Yakumo's character is her staggeringly low self-esteem. She is continually comparing herself negatively to the people around her (Eri, Tenma, and if I dig through 200+ chapters I know I can find more, but I don't have that much time - please don't ask me to), and shrinking into the background. She genuinely believes that she doesn't deserve anything, and will not fight for herself. She'll fight for other people (and animals) to the utmost, but never will she stand up for herself. That's something we see again and again.

    When we apply this character trait to her feelings for Harima we can see exactly why she's acting as she has been in the last few chapters. She knows she has these feelings, but she doesn't think she deserves to have such a great guy as Harima (everyone else is fab, in Yakumo's mind, pretty well without exception), so whenever ANYONE else expresses the fact that they might be into him too, or when the guy himself makes it clear he's into someone else, Yakumo's instant reaction is to think that that other person MUST be better qualified than her to make Harima happy. She doesn't fight for her feelings because she doesn't think she's worthy of them.

    This character facet is what makes Yakumo a genuinely tragic figure for me. She's a great person who has never realised or accepted that she could be a great person. People wanting to be close to her genuinely surprise her. Tenma's love of her she puts down to Tenma's overflowing generosity of character; that Sara should love her seems to surprise her utterly - look at her expression back in b03, and her reaction during the sleepover (forgotten the chapter). She will feel love for others, but as long as she thinks that feeling somehow selfish, she will lock it away, and hurt herself in the process.

    I fervently hope that KJ will continue with his character development and eventually allow Yakumo to confront her own feelings and realise she deserves something out of life and love as well; in the same way that Eri has realised she has friends she can genuinely talk to and doesn't need to hide away in her own sadness all the time. On the other hand, I fear this hope may be unfounded. The essence of a tragic character is that their tragedy is played to the end. To allow such a person a happy ending is a very difficult thing to achieve.

    I very much doubt we will ever see a thought box (or speech bubble!) from Yakumo saying "I love Harima". If we do, it will be a prelude to something huge, because for Yakumo to have and express such a selfish thought will mark a major sea change in her personality.

    Swampstorm - You're a real romantic, aren't you? That was a terribly sweet post from you re: Eri. I wish good things for her too - she is a lovely character - I just wish other characters weren't getting caught in the crossfire.
    Last edited by Isenfolme; 03-14-2007 at 04:47 AM.

  5. #125
    Weimario-kun is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Isenfolme, that was one of the best analysis I have ever read, at least brilliant compared to most of the self-righteous ramble certain fanatic faction members have being spouting. While others have being gloating on the relevant contribution Yakumo has made towards their faction, I pity Yakumo on her emotional state of mind. Although I admit I am less than satisfied that people here would celebrate the situation where a domineering girl eventually gets her way by breaking everyone else's spirit (the word 'masochist' comes to mind...).
    At least my main last hope would be in Harima and Tenma to help guide sad Yakumo out of her emotional rut (and if my prayers be answered: bestow some pernament humility onto Eri before she hurts someone else again, herself included). Good luck recovering your manga Harima, you need all the help you can get, Tenma and Yakumo included.
    Last edited by Weimario-kun; 03-14-2007 at 04:30 AM.

  6. #126
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    Wow. Seems this is degenerating a wee bit. Maybe if we backtrack and dig out a map and a compass we can work out where we left the debating high ground?

    Freeter - I am on your side as far as Yakumo having feelings for Harima goes. I think it has been implied throughout the manga ever since the AC broke way back when (that's where it started, but it's become more obvious since then) and is one of its key elements. It's certainly one of the things that makes Yakumo such an interesting character for me.
    Thats the problem, its been implied and denied over and over again, its still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. If ghosty girl shows up again and we finally see the last conversation between them reveal the truth then I'll jump off the fence (im sure she will make a comeback...right?).


    Quote Originally Posted by Weimario-kun View Post
    Although I admit I am less than satisfied that people here would celebrate the situation where a domineering girl eventually gets her way by breaking everyone else's spirit (the word 'masochist' comes to mind...).
    Be as unsatisfied as you want, I'm still for Eri's because she is a good person despite her front. Even Harima and Yakumo know this by now.

  7. #127
    Freeter is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Thats the problem, its been implied and denied over and over again, its still up in the air as far as I'm concerned.
    216 put it to rest. The line above Yakumo's head is not that hard to decipher.

  8. #128
    Isenfolme is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Thats the problem, its been implied and denied over and over again, its still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. If ghosty girl shows up again and we finally see the last conversation between them reveal the truth then I'll jump off the fence (im sure she will make a comeback...right?).
    Well I certainly hope our ghostly friend will return. She affords us an interesting view into Yakumo's sub-consciousness.

    However, that aside, when we discuss character motivation we need to remember the sacrosanct rule in all forms of storytelling, from film screenwriting to manga - that rule being "show don't tell". You have failed as a writer if you have to resort to spelling out a character's motivation and have that be a revelation to your audience. The aim is to show who a character is through what they do.

    This can certainly become complex, especially in cases (Yakumo being such an example) when what a character says and what they actually do/believe/feel are two different things. Eri denied her feelings for Harima again and again and again, to herself, to others... yet KJ had shown us enough for us to know her as a character and understand that far from telling the truth, she was actually in denial. The same is true for Yakumo. We know enough about her as a character to be able to discern her feelings without KJ needing to do the writing equivalent of putting a huge flashing neon sign over her head. When a character says (or thinks, in the case of comics/manga and possibly in some cases anime) "I love you" that should always be fulfilment and not revelation.

    What would be the writing equivalent of that neon sign? Something along the lines of KJ adding a sidebar that says "Yakumo loves Harima". Or Yakumo thinking "I love Harima". If that were to occur it would only be acceptable if the audience reaction was "Of course you do! How come it took you so long to figure it out?"

    Would you be surprised if Yakumo were to say "I love you" to Harima? I would. Not because the sentiment feels wrong, but because doing such a forward thing is so contrary to her introverted nature.

    My point? That something can and SHOULD be true and clear about a character before that neon sign appears. The neon sign has its place, but it's at the END of the story, not the beginning.

  9. #129
    vekou is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    It could be possible that the ghost girl is part of Yakumo's self conciousness..

    ...huh, that could mean that Yakumo is...

    ...Schitzophrenic?!

    ..just a thought though, since that ghost always digs into Yakumo's inner self. It causes her to contemplate more on important things that she normally doesn't pay attention to. Or is the ghost related to the past of Itoko-sensei, we know nothing about her past, it seems......<nothing>

  10. #130
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeter View Post
    216 put it to rest. The line above Yakumo's head is not that hard to decipher.
    It is pretty hard to, since we do not know if she is talking about love or about "becoming his strength". Note that last option doesn't guarantee her having feelings for Harima, since friend can be ones strength too. She can be talking about love, she may be not. Either way this phrase is not 10000% prove.

    Maybe I just missed your post where you using perfect undeniable logic proved that this phrase is certanly about love. If it is so, post that posts' number please.

 

 
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