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  1. #81
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMGItsTehSARS
    Seriously, this chapter alone makes me think Eri has MUCH less to lose than Yakumo, concerning everything.
    Yakumo has absolutely nothing to lose. She's lead a charmed life, and she has God-mode on as far as her dealings with Eri are concerned. We know that Eri loves Harima. We know that Yakumo currently does not. Who has more to lose, and who runs the bigger risk of rejection? Which one of the two is more afraid of rejection, for that matter?

    The entire manga has constantly thrown Eri into hardship. Even from the first chapter where Eri was introduced, Tenma makes it clear that Eri comes from a lonelier household than either of the Tsukamoto sisters. When Eri broke down into tears in Ch.212 feeling that she has to give up her relationship with Harima in order to keep her friendship with Tenma, and after being assaulted by Yakumo, who did she have turn to? Her dog.

    Eri's friends are so important to her because they are the only thing that she has. Her family is absent, and her connection to them is one of responsibility and duty. She can't afford to give her friends up, even if she thinks that Harima is the guy of her dreams. That's part of the reason why she's so insecure, and why she constantly tries so hard to make them all happy. In Ch.212, for example, she thinks that it's somehow her responsibility to see that Tenma stays smiling.

    Generally, people seem to have difficulty seeing past the chapter that they read last. Yakumo cried because if she wasn't made to show any remorse for hitting Eri, Yakumo would continue to be labelled a bitch for the rest of the manga by a good chunk of the reader base.
    Last edited by Swampstorm; 03-07-2007 at 12:32 AM.

  2. #82
    El Ultimo is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Hi there. Long time lurker here.

    Althougth I consider myself a Eri/Harima suporter, I must say that you are letting your bias interfere with the portrait of Yakumo. Let me explain me better:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
    Yakumo has absolutely nothing to lose.
    How do we know that?

    She's lead a charmed life, and she has God-mode on as far as her dealings with Eri are concerned.
    It's a charming life only if she considers it herself, as far as I've seen she doesn't pay much attention to her life, contenting with live happily with her sister.

    We know that Eri loves Harima. We know that Yakumo currently does not.
    Inexact. We still don't know how deep are the feelings for Harima that she have. I think that your interpretation of the Yakumo scenes and words in ch. 215 is wrong and no matter how much you write about that, you are no making a strong case. The problem is that those scenes are pretty much open, and everybody is filling the blanks with our wishes.


    Who has more to lose, and who runs the bigger risk of rejection? Which one of the two is more afraid of rejection, for that matter?
    Have we seen Yakumo really rejected? Didn't think so.

    The entire manga has constantly thrown Eri into hardship. Even from the first chapter where Eri was introduced, Tenma makes it clear that Eri comes from a lonelier household than either of the Tsukamoto sisters. When Eri broke down into tears in Ch.212 feeling that she has to give up her relationship with Harima in order to keep her friendship with Tenma, and after being assaulted by Yakumo, who did she have turn to? Her dog.
    Being assaulted? That's harsh and I believe that is what Yakumo tought at first: She was defending her sister dignity. But in ch. 215 she knows that was not the case, she was feeling very jealeousy towards Eri after spending all night with Harima (see? that's my interpretation) and in her eyes that made her a worst person.


    Eri's friends are so important to her because they are the only thing that she has. Her family is absent, and her connection to them is one of responsibility and duty. She can't afford to give her friends up, even if she thinks that Harima is the guy of her dreams. That's part of the reason why she's so insecure, and why she constantly tries so hard to make them all happy. In Ch.212, for example, she thinks that it's somehow her responsibility to see that Tenma stays smiling.
    But that was after she knew her past actions were very wrong, fortunately she used her brain.

    Generally, people seem to have difficulty seeing past the chapter that they read last. Yakumo cried because if she wasn't made to show any remorse for hitting Eri, Yakumo would continue to be labelled a bitch for the rest of the manga by a good chunk of the reader base.
    The remorse she showed was because she really did it for the wrong reasons. I think that Eri knew she deserved the slap for the way she was mistreating Tenma (the most innocent person in SR, even tought she is the more stupid), and thats why Eri hasn't retaliated nor showed a grudge towards Yakumo (at least for that reason).

    I apologize for my ortographical faults, but I'm not a native english speaker.

    Also I won't be able to respond until tomorrow.

    Best Regards

  3. #83
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Swamp's reply will be a fun read.

  4. #84
    OMGItsTehSARS is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Not really...I'm sure you can come up with counterarguments just as well Ajax. I'm capable, but I'm lazy =D

  5. #85
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMGItsTehSARS View Post
    Not really...I'm sure you can come up with counterarguments just as well Ajax. I'm capable, but I'm lazy =D
    but his argument is with Swamp, I don't want to butt in

  6. #86
    Pandaren is offline Member Newbie
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    for me only one short comment ---> yay, onigiri is back !!!

  7. #87
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Althougth I consider myself a Eri/Harima suporter, I must say that you are letting your bias interfere with the portrait of Yakumo.
    I wish I had a penny every time someone said that. My personal bias is really irrelevant. The only thing that matters is my reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    How do we know that?
    Simple. You tell me what she has to lose, and I'll disprove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    It's a charming life only if she considers it herself, as far as I've seen she doesn't pay much attention to her life, contenting with live happily with her sister.
    The phrase "charmed life" refers to someone who has everything go their way. Even the chapter where she's introduced is called "Wonder Woman".

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Inexact. We still don't know how deep are the feelings for Harima that she have.
    Ch.206.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    I think that your interpretation of the Yakumo scenes and words in ch. 215 is wrong and no matter how much you write about that, you are no making a strong case. The problem is that those scenes are pretty much open, and everybody is filling the blanks with our wishes.
    You can think whatever you want.

    The only argument that we've seen put forward to suggest that Yakumo has feelings for Harima runs like this:
    "Yakumo is upset by the fact that Eri loves Harima, so therefore Yakumo loves Harima."

    The problem with this is simple.
    Yakumo knows that Harima loves Tenma.
    If Yakumo loves Harima, then she would have a problem with the fact that Harima loves Tenma, not with the fact that Eri loves Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Have we seen Yakumo really rejected? Didn't think so.
    I think you had better reread what I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Being assaulted? That's harsh
    Yes. It is a harsh thing to be assaulted. That's why the general opinion of Yakumo was very negative, as of late.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    and I believe that is what Yakumo tought at first: She was defending her sister dignity. But in ch. 215 she knows that was not the case, she was feeling very jealeousy towards Eri after spending all night with Harima (see? that's my interpretation) and in her eyes that made her a worst person.
    See my above comments on that line of argumentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    But that was after she knew her past actions were very wrong, fortunately she used her brain.
    You were the one who decided that they were wrong. I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    The remorse she showed was because she really did it for the wrong reasons. I think that Eri knew she deserved the slap for the way she was mistreating Tenma (the most innocent person in SR, even tought she is the more stupid), and thats why Eri hasn't retaliated nor showed a grudge towards Yakumo (at least for that reason).
    Eri was torturing herself with things that she had no control over. Even the most primitive single celled creatures know to take shelter from adverse conditions - and yet Tenma insisted on staying out in the cold without bothering to call the house or ring the doorbell. Yakumo simply took advantage of Eri's good nature.

  8. #88
    El Ultimo is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
    I wish I had a penny every time someone said that. My personal bias is really irrelevant. The only thing that matters is my reasoning.
    Which as I said is heavily maticed against Yakumo and that couldn't be an objetive reasoning.

    Simple. You tell me what she has to lose, and I'll disprove it.
    Her sister love, Sara friendship, Harima respect and no very much more, she doesn't have much things in this world (that she has noticed, anyway).


    The phrase "charmed life" refers to someone who has everything go their way. Even the chapter where she's introduced is called "Wonder Woman".
    But she doesn't think of herself in that way, or at least it doesn't seems so.


    Ch.206.
    Lets see what you are talking about.

    Ch. 206:

    P4:
    ?: Ohhh!! Yakumo!!! Did he choose you?
    ?: Ehhhhhh?! Could it be that you love Harima Sempai, Yakumo?!
    ?: Tell us what's going on, Yakumo!!

    Yakumo: [blushing]Well, me and him aren't really...
    ?: Aw, Cmon!!

    Sara: Yakumo!! You have to be honest! If you love him then you have to say something!!
    Yakumo: Eh?

    Sara: You'll regret it if you don't say anything!!
    METHA-COMENTARY: SARA ADIEMAS (sp), EXPERT IN ALL THINGS YAKUMO.
    (This is important to note, considering what happened in ch. 215)

    P5:
    ?: Fine then!! Then it's between Sawachika-sempai and Tsukamoto-sempai!
    Yakumo: [effect of heart beating]

    The discussion continues between the other girls about the merit of the contenders.
    Meanwhile Yakumo has a strange expression. It seems that the girls (sans Yakumo) decided that Eri is more princess than Tenma (which is true).

    P6:
    Yakumo: W-wait...!
    [The other girls made a pause when they are about to commit the deed]

    P7:
    Yakumo question the reasoning that Eri and Harima are going out (wich as we know is a generalized misunderstanding).
    The other girls begin to have doubts about that and what they have hear.

    Yakumo reflex on that and Harima personality (idealizing him a bit)
    Yakumo: [thinking] I guess.. that's right... He's not the kind of person that would change his mind... A strong heart that won't sway... He wouldn't be so careless as to fall for someone just like that... That's more like him-

    P8:
    Inaba: Eh?! Could it be...?!?

    Inaba: Yakumo!! Did Harima-san confess to you?!
    Satsuki: Ehhh?! Seriously?! Is that why you know all of this?!
    Miki: You two...

    Yakumo: [surprised]
    Yakumo: [nostalgic? sad? happy? sincere? expression][flowery effect, normaly used to denote beauty in the moment] Nope.
    Sara: [weird expression] (this could mean a number of things, but the fact that the author used it is important, again, in ch. 215).
    METHA-COMENTARY: ALWAYS... FOREVER...(what?)

    P9:
    Yakumo: [thinking] Harima-san is... But Nee-san is...
    Tenma: I'm hoooome!!
    METHA-COMENTARY: THE YOUNGER SISTER'S HEART, THE OLDEST SISTER DOESN'T KNOW...

    After re-reading the chapter and transcribing the important parts, I still don't find the true of your claim: "Yakumo doesn't love Harima"
    Yakumo "say" that she doesn't love Harima, but, is that the truth? Couldn't be that she hasn't realized what she feels and in ch. 215 begin to understand herself and her past actions.
    I think that's why it causes so much turmoil to her. She only knew that Harima loved her sister, and tought that him was good enough man to be with her beloved Nee-san, but in ch. 215 realize that thinking of Harima with Eri hurts her (my infering).

    If your reasoning of her "Nope" in ch. 206 is that it is the unchanging truth, then pasts chapters where Eri denies to be in love with Harima should signify the she doesn't love him currently because it would be impossible for her to realize that she feels something. Or that Imadori couldn't feel something romantic towards Karen.

    That's one of the things that happens in real life, the feelings can appear, awake, change and disapear. If the case where Yakumo says that she doesn't love Harima can't change (and "maybe" she was lying to herself), then Eri doesn't have any chance with Harima because he will love Tenma until the end.

    But we, Eri/Harima supporters (I don't like to use the factions' monikers), have the hope that He will notice Eri's feelings, and notice that he doesn't have any chance with Tenma.





    You can think whatever you want.
    So do you.

    The only argument that we've seen put forward to suggest that Yakumo has feelings for Harima runs like this:
    "Yakumo is upset by the fact that Eri loves Harima, so therefore Yakumo loves Harima."
    It's no the only one.


    The problem with this is simple.
    Yakumo knows that Harima loves Tenma.
    If Yakumo loves Harima, then she would have a problem with the fact that Harima loves Tenma, not with the fact that Eri loves Harima.
    Yakumo loves her sister more that other person in the world, or so she thought, but I think she realized something important in 215.


    I think you had better reread what I wrote.
    Done. But I still think that you are wrong.


    Yes. It is a harsh thing to be assaulted. That's why the general opinion of Yakumo was very negative, as of late.
    I think you know that what I was refering were your calificative. A "rightly justice" slap is better than a "jealous" slap

    Also, I wouldn't say "the general opinion" when is just a group opinion.

    See my above comments on that line of argumentation.
    They are not convincing.


    You were the one who decided that they were wrong. I disagree.
    And you where the one to decide that mine and others were wrong. I disagree.

    Eri was torturing herself with things that she had no control over. Even the most primitive single celled creatures know to take shelter from adverse conditions - and yet Tenma insisted on staying out in the cold without bothering to call the house or ring the doorbell. Yakumo simply took advantage of Eri's good nature.
    School Rumble is a Romantic Comedy, somethings that are completely illogic or contradicting survival instinct isn't important.

    Yakumo, in that moment (and she admited she lied to herself whith the reasons) feel angry that her innocent, good, stupid sister was being injustly berated when she tried to apologize for something that was out of her control.

    Again, this is only my perception, wich disagrees with yours, but only on the part where you decide whose reasons of Yakumo are the absolute truth.
    If these were real, then wouldn't be people like me disagreeing with you. Also, the concensus doesn't make something real.

    AS I said, I support (hope) for a Harima/Eri end, but choosing the wrong way to obtain it is very bad.

    Best Regards
    Last edited by El Ultimo; 03-08-2007 at 09:34 AM.

  9. #89
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I have the feeling this discussion goes nowhere. What both Eri and Yakumo have to lose ?? They don't have anything to lose if they act normally.
    I don't really understand Eri's problem with "Harima or friends" - Akira is right, why can't she have both. It's only Eri who complicates the stuff.
    The confession situation :
    Version one : Harima rejects Eri confession - she still have friends
    Version two : Harima accepts Eri confession - she still, I believe, have friends
    Version three : Harima doesn't answer - she, most probably, still have those friends
    Version four : Harima back stab Tenma to make her look stupid in front of Harima, she pretty much loses everything : Both friend and Harima.
    ...I think Eri is right now smart enough to not choose the 4th method - the only thing to lose here is Harima, whatever he will answer to her feelings or not.
    Yakumo's situation - ver. 1 She admits she has feelings for Harima
    Confession 1 : Harima rejects, but I don't believe he would reject Imouto-san harshly and Yakumo would understood it's because of her sister. No harm done, they continue to be friends
    Confession 2 : Harima accepts, Tenma is happy, Eri stops to care, Yakumo is happy, Sara is happy, Hanai kill himself - to sum it up, Happy ending
    Confession 3 : Harima doesn't answers - a pretty ankward situation which is mostly negative for...Harima, since it will be Tenma with Onee-chan power to make him answer (and Odou could happen here).
    Confession 4 : Bloody Mary clash - Eri v.s Yakumo. Seriously, I don't see any conclusion here and Harima won't understand what's happening, Tenma will be sad.
    Yakumo risks much if she starts a fight with Eri.

    Yakumo situation 2 I like Harima-san, I want him to be happy
    And that's probably the worse conclusion, since Yakumo will become Odou supporter and anti-Flag. Pretty much, whatever she does here, she will only make situation worse - the only positive way Yakumo can be supportive here is concentrate on helping on Harima's manga.
    Harima wouldn't stop pursuing his dream, he won't get mad on Eri and he will have new motivation to try make Tenma love him.

    If both Eri and Yakumo plays it safe and not agressively, they won't lose much, IMAO

  10. #90
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Which as I said is heavily maticed against Yakumo and that couldn't be an objetive reasoning.
    That's an Ad hominem fallacy. Simply put, who I am or what my personal views are have no bearing on whether my statements are correct or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Her sister love, Sara friendship, Harima respect and no very much more, she doesn't have much things in this world (that she has noticed, anyway).
    Which ones of these things are under attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    But she doesn't think of herself in that way, or at least it doesn't seems so.
    We're not talking about what she thinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Sara: You'll regret it if you don't say anything!!
    METHA-COMENTARY: SARA ADIEMAS (sp), EXPERT IN ALL THINGS YAKUMO.
    (This is important to note, considering what happened in ch. 215)
    Which means one of two things: either she actually is an expert in all things Yakumo, or she considers herself to be an expert in all things Yakumo.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Inaba: Yakumo!! Did Harima-san confess to you?!
    Satsuki: Ehhh?! Seriously?! Is that why you know all of this?!
    Miki: You two...

    Yakumo: [surprised]
    Yakumo: [nostalgic? sad? happy? sincere? expression][flowery effect, normaly

    Sara: [weird expression] (this could mean a number of things, but the fact that the author used it is important, again, in ch. 215).
    METHA-COMENTARY: ALWAYS... FOREVER...(what?)
    Yakumo is content with knowing that Harima will never stray from his interest in Tenma - and so she is pleased that he would never choose Yakumo over her sister.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo "say" that she doesn't love Harima, but, is that the truth? Couldn't be that she hasn't realized what she feels and in ch. 215 begin to understand herself and her past actions.
    But she only has a conflict with Eri's interest in Harima, not Harima's interest in Eri. You just can't get around that point, and that point will destroy your argument every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    She only knew that Harima loved her sister, and tought that him was good enough man to be with her beloved Nee-san, but in ch. 215 realize that thinking of Harima with Eri hurts her (my infering).
    But that only reinforces my point - she has a problem with Eri and Harima, but not Tenma and Harima. If she was interested in having a relationship with Harima, then she would have a problem with both.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    If your reasoning of her "Nope" in ch. 206 is that it is the unchanging truth, then pasts chapters where Eri denies to be in love with Harima should signify the she doesn't love him currently because it would be impossible for her to realize that she feels something. Or that Imadori couldn't feel something romantic towards Karen.
    The problem with your line of reasoning is that Eri hasn't always denied her feelings for Harima. There are no instances where Yakumo has claimed to have any such feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    That's one of the things that happens in real life, the feelings can appear, awake, change and disapear. If the case where Yakumo says that she doesn't love Harima can't change (and "maybe" she was lying to herself), then Eri doesn't have any chance with Harima because he will love Tenma until the end.
    Those feelings may change in the future. But at present, we have no evidence to support your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    It's no the only one.
    You are welcome to pose an alternative line of reasoning, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo loves her sister more that other person in the world, or so she thought, but I think she realized something important in 215.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    I think you know that what I was refering were your calificative. A "rightly justice" slap is better than a "jealous" slap
    A slap is a slap is a slap.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Also, I wouldn't say "the general opinion" when is just a group opinion.
    That's what the term means.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    They are not convincing.
    That's hardly my problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    And you where the one to decide that mine and others were wrong. I disagree.
    You're welcome to follow whatever viewpoint that you want. That doesn't mean that I won't challenge your ideas if I disagree, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo, in that moment (and she admited she lied to herself whith the reasons) feel angry that her innocent, good, stupid sister was being injustly berated when she tried to apologize for something that was out of her control.
    Where did she admit to lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Again, this is only my perception, wich disagrees with yours, but only on the part where you decide whose reasons of Yakumo are the absolute truth.
    If these were real, then wouldn't be people like me disagreeing with you. Also, the concensus doesn't make something real.
    You're welcome to disagree with me. But that doesn't mean that I won't contradict you.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    AS I said, I support (hope) for a Harima/Eri end, but choosing the wrong way to obtain it is very bad.
    That sounds like a tautology, but it doesn't tell us very much.

 

 
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