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  1. #101
    El Ultimo is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraness
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    That's a common behavior in what is called jealousy.
    Where does it ever say that Yakumo is jealous of Eri having an interest in Harima? Just because a behaviour is common, doesn’t mean that Yakumo is acting so.

    Where does is ever say that Yakumo's words and reactions isn't jealousy. What I wrote is part of that interpretation/inference/deduction/understanding that I 've been refering.
    Althought I'm not trying to create an antecedent, I propose some Ranma 1/2 examples of cliche:

    Ranma never says that he loved Akane in a forward way (until the Phoenix arc, but then he denies it), but since the first chapter I thought that he liked her.
    Akane never says that she loved Ranma, but the way she interacted with him made me infer that she loved him.

    Was I wrong? Even today there are theories that tell me that's the case. During the duration of the manga, the readers were to interpret the actions, expresions, subtext, words, and a lot of factors for us to be able to enjoy the story.
    But I acted without proof that Ranma loved Akane and Akane loved Ranma, it was only my interpretation of what was presented to me.

    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    But that only reinforces my point - she has a problem with Eri and Harima, but not Tenma and Harima. If she was interested in having a relationship with Harima, then she would have a problem with both.
    What exactly is your point? Just that she has a problem with Eri and Harima? I thought you were arguing that Yakumo was trying to break apart Eri and Harima for her own benefit; wouldn’t this mean that Yakumo does have an interest in Harima from your perspective and should have a problem with both Eri and Tenma?
    The above paragraph is an edition mistake. It should be:


    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo "say" that she doesn't love Harima, but, is that the truth? Couldn't be that she hasn't realized what she feels and in ch. 215 begin to understand herself and her past actions.
    But she only has a conflict with Eri's interest in Harima, not Harima's interest in Eri. You just can't get around that point, and that point will destroy your argument every time.
    Followed for a very wordy example of logic and reason, which could only be appreciated for the most clear-thinking sages.
    Unfortunately I don't remember those words, but the idea was that Yakumo doesn't need to adjust to Swamstorm limited interpretation of jealousy. A manga character can feel jealous to the person and/or people who come close to the object of their affection.
    Of course, this is my interpretation, but I must point to you and Swampstorm that your arguments/counterarguments use your interpretation of the same story, and as such, doesn't have any weight against mine, at least no more of what you'd like to think.

    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo: That's why I can't forgive anyone that treats her like and Idiot. I had to do what Nee-san couldn't. Not matter what she (Tenma) would say.
    Yakumo: That's what I thought when I slapped her ...But I was wrong...
    (My understanding: she thought she was slapping Eri defending her sister's dignity, but she was really doing it for other reason: jealousy)
    Yakumo is not specific when talking about what she was wrong about. It could be that she was mistaken about her reason for slapping Eri, but Yakumo can also mean that her practise of doing what Tenma couldn't despite what she says is wrong. You can't infer which she is talking about, here, thanks to the ambiguity.
    Wrong. Because of the "ambiguity" that you mention, You and I can only infer. There isn't a lot more that we can do. Also I must point that Yakumo pounded Hanai when he was thinking bad things about Tenma and Yakumo bested Eri in the beach game when Eri say bad things (in Yakumo eyes) about Tenma. So I'm pretty sure that the "avenging Yakumo" is a facet that she doesn't regret.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    P10:
    Yakumo: I know... I know that Sawachika-sempai is in love with Harima-sempai.
    Yakumo: And... It hurts me so badly...

    (If I am not wrong, you claimed that in the above scene and dialog, Yakumo is sorry for interfering between Eri and Harima, but I don't see the elements of proof for that)
    It’s pretty simple. Yakumo has been interfering with Eri’s relationship with Harima for a while, but she was never certain that Eri loved him. Now that she knows that Eri loves him, the fact that she’s been interfering now hurts Yakumo.

    Since Yakumo is rather vague, it can’t be confirmed this is what she’s talking about. On the other hand, since Yakumo is rather vague, it can’t be confirmed that she’s hurt because she’s jealous over Eri having feelings for Harima. So, because neither can be proven, which one is it? The simple explanation, or the complex one?
    Again, you try to use your interpretation of the story as proof, when at the same time acknowledge that is not a simple task.
    Saying: "It's pretty simple" and then telling me the truth using your understanding and deduction to conclude it, well, it isn't as valid as you think.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo: I've buried so many things inside me ...and it's all building up...
    Yakumo: I'm becoming a terrible person.
    (My hipothesis: Yakumo say that she's becoming a terrible person because of the things she has done, trying to apart Eri and Harima for her [Yakumo] benefit, and not because she wanted to pair him with her sister)
    It’s a hypothesis. Yakumo could simply be feeling terrible for trying to break apart Eri and Harima; that is a terrible thing to do when you know that one side is very interested in the other. Is it as complex as you make it out to be?
    That's right, is my hypothesis, what's more, I wrote it (with ortographical mistake and all): "My hipothesis". What you have to offer as counter-argument is another non-proved-true hypothesis (which all hypothesis are by definition).


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Just for the quiz:

    My favorite characters in SR:
    1st. Tenma, Eri, Harima, Hanai.
    2nd. Mikoto, Karen, Imadori, Lala
    3rd. AKira, Karasuma, Tougo
    4th. Yakumo, Sara, Asou.
    5th. Mai, Nishimoto, Nara
    6th. The rest of students of 2-C.
    7th. Teachers, Tae and other students.

    So, as you can see, Yakumo is not in my first 3 places of favoritism.
    Irrelevant. When you mention the problem of people's favouritism being a problem affecting many people's reasoning and then suggest that you don't have that problem, it just looks like you’re trying to raise yourself above everyone else.

    Yakumo could be your least favorite character, and you could still want her to have an interest in Harima, which would affect your reasoning, if you wanted there to be a clash between Eri and Yakumo over Harima (with Eri coming out on top).
    If I where to, but that's not the case. I don't want any clash that would make (potentially) Out Of Character Eri and/or Yakumo. I didn't like it when Eri began trying to outdo Tenma "Tenma-iness" and try to gain Harima attention.
    I thought it was funny, but didn't like it.



    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Lets remember that this is not a fight ot be won no matter the price, the fact that to many people (rel.) thinks that Yakumo feels something for Harima is (very probably) looked for the author and it makes the story more interesting than just having Eri pining for Harima, him pining for Tenma, she pining for Karasuma, and it pining for curry.
    Are you one of those people that thinks that the story would be more interesting if Yakumo had an interest in Harima?
    Yes. I also thought that School Rumble became more interesting when Harima and Eri had the first "moment" sharing the umbrella (ch. 23) and althought there wasn't any proof of something more romantic between those two in the inmediately chapters following that, my Wishful Thinking (logical fallacie) keept thinking that they made a good couple.
    I also liked the introduction of Hanai as a counterpoint to Harima, the introduction of more schoolmates. The evolution that these characters had been trought is (in my opinion) one of the strong points of the overall story.
    This includes the dynamic between characters, up until chapter 23 my thoughts on SR were of a fun manga, but no one of my favorites, something to read when there wasn't new chapters of One Piece (my Number 1).
    It was the comical tale of the romantic one-sided triangle between Harima-Tenma-Karasuma, but nothing more, in those days I didn't think it could be more, but KJ proved me wrong.

    In conclusion (mine, of course):

    We (me, you, Swampstorm, whoever), read the same story, and only we can make our own interpretations. These inferings are made with our frame of mind (life experiences, education, desires, and a lot of intangibles factors).
    It isn't mathematics, A + B not necessarily equals C because there are Xs, Ys, Zs and Psi's that we don't take in acount when we are doing the adition.

    I never claimed to be impartial, it's the contrary, if there's a thing that upsets me is character bashing, and that was what made me write in the forums questioning the reasons of some people that (my interpretation) wrote against Tenma and Yakumo, and I pointed that.
    So I took a party, and offered my arguments which can be wrong, but I don't think so and that's why I wrote them. My hypothesis hasn't been proven false by your reasoning which is affected by your understanding of the story, but you don't offer proof only more hypothesis. But I'm not "partisan" and neither will "take arms" to defend Flag (I still don't like the factions 'nicks). I think (hope) it will come to be without me attacking to and defending from perceived enemies.
    If you have circunstancial evidence and I have circunstancial of the contrary...

    Lets review some Locical Fallacies that I pointed to Swampstorm after he acussed me of making an Ad Hominem Attack
    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    And now that we're talking about Logical Fallacies:

    1. Argument of Antecedent: Saying that because Yakumo hasn't demonstrated any amorous feeling towards Harima in previous chapters then in ch.215 it continues the trend.
    Also you use this when remite people to ch.206 to demostrate that Yakumo hasn't developed or discovered feelings for Harima .

    2. Fallacy of the Single Cause: When you say that "If Yakumo loves Harima, then she would have a problem with the fact that Harima loves Tenma, not with the fact that Eri loves Harima".

    3. Argument of the Straw Man: You are misinterpreting of my position, thinking that I'm argumenting that Yakumo has always loved Harima, when that's not the case, making it easier for you to refute me.

    4. Fallacy of Association: You say that "a slap is a slap is a slap". While the action is the same, there exist differences in the motivation. "Killing in selfdefense" can get you out of prison (with a good lawyer). Hitting somebody that insults me or a member of my family is something that won't feel bad about. If this wasn't a Comedy manga then "a kick is a kick is a kick" and Harima should've more offended (I know I would), but fortunately for the pairing I support, it wasn't the case.

    5. Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: When you claim that your premise is true only because those that maintain a contraries hipothesis hasn't been able to prove their's true.

    6. Argument from personal conviction: This is a fallacie that most people falls into (including me). It's when an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed not to be true, wich could not be the case. The lack of evidence for our hipothesis doesn't constitute evidence that your claim is true, and vice versa.

    7. Appeal to Emotion: This fallacie is other favorite of the "audience" and more often that not we recurreto it, like when you write: "The entire manga has constantly thrown Eri into hardship. Even from the first chapter where Eri was introduced, Tenma makes it clear that Eri comes from a lonelier household than either of the Tsukamoto sisters. When Eri broke down into tears in Ch.212 feeling that she has to give up her relationship with Harima in order to keep her friendship with Tenma, and after being assaulted by Yakumo, who did she have turn to? Her dog"
    (Just to clear some things, I think that Eri could have gone to one of her friends (obviouly not Tenma), like Yakumo went to Sara. But maybe was feeling self-pity...)
    __________________
    One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind. - Alphonse Bertillon
    "There are also things that exist without the need of a direct observation, but the effects that they produce reveal them". -Anonymous.

    "Not only does God play dice, but he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen." - Stephen Hawking.

    "I'm Atheist" - Myself.
    Last edited by El Ultimo; 03-16-2007 at 12:50 PM.

  2. #102
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Where does is ever say that Yakumo's words and reactions isn't jealousy. What I wrote is part of that interpretation/inference/deduction/understanding that I 've been refering.
    Chapter 216 answers this, sort of.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Although I'm not trying to create an antecedent, I propose some Ranma 1/2 examples of cliche:

    Ranma never says that he loved Akane in a forward way (until the Phoenix arc, but then he denies it), but since the first chapter I thought that he liked her.
    Akane never says that she loved Ranma, but the way she interacted with him made me infer that she loved him.

    Was I wrong? Even today there are theories that tell me that's the case. During the duration of the manga, the readers were to interpret the actions, expresions, subtext, words, and a lot of factors for us to be able to enjoy the story.
    But I acted without proof that Ranma loved Akane and Akane loved Ranma, it was only my interpretation of what was presented to me.
    This is an incomplete analogy. You need to explain how the methods used by Rumiko Takahashi to tell readers that Ranma and Akane like each other are also used by Jin Kobayashi for Harima and Yakumo. While Ranma and Akane never explicitly say they love each other until the series is almost over, they constantly and clearly demonstrate jealousy whenever someone shows interest in the other and frequently display some form of affection for each other.

    Also, this being used in Ranma 1/2 doesn't mean it's present in School Rumble for Harima and Yakumo. It's ridiculously obvious that Ranma and Akane like each other, for the reasons you list and more; I figured that out before I finished reading the first volume.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Of course, this is my interpretation, but I must point to you and Swampstorm that your arguments/counterarguments use your interpretation of the same story, and as such, doesn't have any weight against mine, at least no more of what you'd like to think.
    Do you really think I don't know this? This is basically the message stated by my own signature.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Wrong. Because of the "ambiguity" that you mention, You and I can only infer. There isn't a lot more that we can do.
    Which was the point of my post, which you seem to have misread. I meant we can’t infer which one Yakumo really means.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Also I must point that Yakumo pounded Hanai when he was thinking bad things about Tenma and Yakumo bested Eri in the beach game when Eri say bad things (in Yakumo eyes) about Tenma. So I'm pretty sure that the "avenging Yakumo" is a facet that she doesn't regret.
    All of which are rather terrible things to do to people, according to society. It's easy to do those terrible things to people when you think of them as villains; in Chapter 215, Yakumo realizes that Eri is actually a good person. It would be very understandable for Yakumo to no longer be able to justify her own actions after seeing Eri in a more human light. In addition, Yakumo being shown repeatedly acting like this in the past gives credence to the idea that guilt over acting like this has been building up inside her, and this is what’s lead to her breakdown in Chapter 215.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Again, you try to use your interpretation of the story as proof, when at the same time acknowledge that is not a simple task.

    Saying: "It's pretty simple" and then telling me the truth using your understanding and deduction to conclude it, well, it isn't as valid as you think.
    Occam's Razor destroys theories like a scythe cuts through wheat.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    That's right, is my hypothesis, what's more, I wrote it (with ortographical mistake and all): "My hipothesis". What you have to offer as counter-argument is another non-proved-true hypothesis (which all hypothesis are by definition).
    So? That’s what makes arguing over it fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Yes.
    You have a bunch of text after this response to my question, but this was the only part I wanted to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    We (me, you, Swampstorm, whoever), read the same story, and only we can make our own interpretations. These inferings are made with our frame of mind (life experiences, education, desires, and a lot of intangibles factors).
    See my signature.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    It isn't mathematics, A + B not necessarily equals C because there are Xs, Ys, Zs and Psi's that we don't take in acount when we are doing the adition.

    I never claimed to be impartial, it's the contrary, if there's a thing that upsets me is character bashing, and that was what made me write in the forums questioning the reasons of some people that (my interpretation) wrote against Tenma and Yakumo, and I pointed that.
    So I took a party, and offered my arguments which can be wrong, but I don't think so and that's why I wrote them. My hypothesis hasn't been proven false by your reasoning which is affected by your understanding of the story, but you don't offer proof only more hypothesis. But I'm not "partisan" and neither will "take arms" to defend Flag (I still don't like the factions 'nicks). I think (hope) it will come to be without me attacking to and defending from perceived enemies.
    If you have circunstancial evidence and I have circunstancial of the contrary...
    I don't care what your objectives or intentions are when you make a post. What I'm interested in is your reasoning used to make theories. I'm not going to even read explanations like this, so don't bother explaining yourself like this to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Lets review some Locical Fallacies that I pointed to Swampstorm after he acussed me of making an Ad Hominem Attack
    Let's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    "There are also things that exist without the need of a direct observation, but the effects that they produce reveal them". -Anonymous.

    "Not only does God play dice, but he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen." - Stephen Hawking.

    "I'm Atheist" - Myself.
    I think it's funny you found a bunch of quotes in response to a quote that basically says the same message you've thrown in my face repeatedly.
    Last edited by ultraness; 03-16-2007 at 03:02 PM.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #103
    kraiton is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    And what did we learn of all this?



    sorry, couldn't resist, juejuejue

  4. #104
    El Ultimo is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    I meant we canít infer which one Yakumo really means.
    You have a bunch of text before and after this response to my arguments, but this was the only part I wanted to see.


    Best Regards

  5. #105
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    You have a bunch of text before and after this response to my arguments, but this was the only part I wanted to see.
    Which is why he introduced Occam's Razor into the discussion as well. While I'm not a big fan of the approach, he did catch you with that point.

    For me, I'll just point you in the direction of Yakumo and Sara's conversation in Ch.217.

  6. #106
    El Ultimo is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    @Swamptorm

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    You have a bunch of text before and after this response to my arguments, but this was the only part I wanted to see.
    Which is why he introduced Occam's Razor into the discussion as well. While I'm not a big fan of the approach, he did catch you with that point.
    Please, be more clear, or better yet, read carefully what was wrote (even if I make a lot of orthographical mistakes).

    He mentioned O-R because (if i understood right), he thought that I was refering to his explanation (which wasn't simple at all), when I was criticizing him for saying that it was simple.

    I was just paraphrasing him. I thought that it would point the mistakes that he was doing (not much differents than yours).
    I suppose it wasn't the case and I'll try to explain myself better in another message, but I'm afraid that Ultraness will not read it because it would be a lot of text again.
    So if you read the other message, you'll note that I "wasn't catched", as you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm
    For me, I'll just point you in the direction of Yakumo and Sara's conversation in Ch.217.
    Oh, really? Lets read that again:
    Ch. 217
    P8:
    [Chinese Restaurant]
    Sara: Hmm?

    Yakumo: Sara.
    Sara: Here for dinner? It's rare that you are by yourself...

    Yakumo: Er... No... It's just that...
    Sara: [Happy face]

    Sara: Did something happen?
    Yakumo: Y-yeah...
    Sara: You make a step forward?

    Yakumo: Just... a little... against my enemy... (note: There are people saying that Townsocks did a correction to the translation and that the correct is Yakumo: towards my goal)
    Sara: Oh!! What did you say?

    P9:
    Yakumo: It's not that... it's... um...
    Sara: Well, then what happened?
    Yakumo: Umm...
    Sara: C'mon. Tell me everything!
    Yakumo: Oh... (whisper whisper)
    Sara: WHAT?!

    Sara: Are you serious? What are you doing giving him to her like that?!
    Sara: That's the same that handing him over!!
    Yakumo: She's not my enemy...

    Sara: I don't get it at all!! love is so difficult...!
    Yakumo: ...I... don't know very well either...

    Sara: But! It looks like you just let go of a big burden! I'm glad!
    Yakumo: ... Yeah...
    METHA-COMENTARY: YAKUMO, IT MIGHT BE BACKWARDS BUT IT'S STILL A STEP.
    So? You pointed me to the above conversation, and...? Please explain your deduction from these lines that should convince me that you are correct and I'm not.

    But first let me tell you, we just touched the impossibility that yours non-proved arguments can be real proof that I'm wrong.
    As far as I understand and if the translation is right, Sara is talking about love, reproaching Yakumo for "handing him (I suppose is Harima) to her (I suppose is Eri)". When Sara says that she doesn't understand and that love is so difficult, Yakumo says that she doesn't know either.

    ================

    @ULTRANESS



    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraness
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Where does is ever say that Yakumo's words and reactions isn't jealousy. What I wrote is part of that interpretation/inference/deduction/understanding that I 've been refering.
    Chapter 216 answers this, sort of.
    No, it doesn't. And I infer from your: "sort of", that you are not sure.

    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Although I'm not trying to create an antecedent, I propose some Ranma 1/2 examples of cliche:

    Ranma never says that he loved Akane in a forward way (until the Phoenix arc, but then he denies it), but since the first chapter I thought that he liked her.
    Akane never says that she loved Ranma, but the way she interacted with him made me infer that she loved him.

    Was I wrong? Even today there are theories that tell me that's the case. During the duration of the manga, the readers were to interpret the actions, expresions, subtext, words, and a lot of factors for us to be able to enjoy the story.
    But I acted without proof that Ranma loved Akane and Akane loved Ranma, it was only my interpretation of what was presented to me.
    This is an incomplete analogy. You need to explain how the methods used by Rumiko Takahashi to tell readers that Ranma and Akane like each other are also used by Jin Kobayashi for Harima and Yakumo. While Ranma and Akane never explicitly say they love each other until the series is almost over, they constantly and clearly demonstrate jealousy whenever someone shows interest in the other and frequently display some form of affection for each other.
    That's why I wrote: "I'm not trying to create an antecedent". I wasn't creating a correlation between R1/2 and SR. The TR method is not the KJ method. As I said, there are (is?) still people who doesn't give Ranma/Akane romance any value but that's because their interpretation.

    Also, this being used in Ranma 1/2 doesn't mean it's present in School Rumble for Harima and Yakumo. It's ridiculously obvious that Ranma and Akane like each other, for the reasons you list and more; I figured that out before I finished reading the first volume.
    But there is not proof as such, only things that appeal to our understanding and from them we infer.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Of course, this is my interpretation, but I must point to you and Swampstorm that your arguments/counterarguments use your interpretation of the same story, and as such, doesn't have any weight against mine, at least no more of what you'd like to think.
    Do you really think I don't know this? This is basically the message stated by my own signature.
    Then, why are you so stubborn to prove me false?

    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Wrong. Because of the "ambiguity" that you mention, You and I can only infer. There isn't a lot more that we can do.
    Which was the point of my post, which you seem to have misread. I meant we canít infer which one Yakumo really means.
    Again, WE CAN ONLY INFER. If our inferences are wrong or not is another relationed point but not the same.
    The problem is that you disqualify others hypothesis that doesn't enter into your range of understanding.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Also I must point that Yakumo pounded Hanai when he was thinking bad things about Tenma and Yakumo bested Eri in the beach game when Eri say bad things (in Yakumo eyes) about Tenma. So I'm pretty sure that the "avenging Yakumo" is a facet that she doesn't regret.
    All of which are rather terrible things to do to people, according to society. It's easy to do those terrible things to people when you think of them as villains; in Chapter 215, Yakumo realizes that Eri is actually a good person. It would be very understandable for Yakumo to no longer be able to justify her own actions after seeing Eri in a more human light. In addition, Yakumo being shown repeatedly acting like this in the past gives credence to the idea that guilt over acting like this has been building up inside her, and this is whatís lead to her breakdown in Chapter 215.
    But yours is very complicated hypothesis with a lot of assumtions, which denies this:

    Occam's Razor destroys theories like a scythe cuts through wheat.
    By the way, you insist to use logical terms and reasoning, and I congratulate you for that, but in your zelous, you are commiting mistakes on the use of these.

    Some of the characteristics of the Occam's Razor are:

    Is not the the impossibility of other theories but the most simple, being true, but that the posited arguments have rational explanations.
    The theory must work (and as far as I understand mine work better).
    The need of evidential support of the theories (You don't have it, and neither I).
    The re-use of entities in new roles is preferable than the manufacturing of a new one entity.

    Occam's Razor is specially usefull when you are arguing explanations that requires the introduction of unnecessary hypothesis.
    But then you'll have to define what are those "unnecessary hypothesis" when the posited is very simple: Yakumo became aware of her real feelings towards Harima in Chapter 215.
    Unfortunately we're discussing the field of human (and their proxies) feelings, not science, philosophy, logic or any other type of abstract study that need this reasoning.

    [Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    That's right, is my hypothesis, what's more, I wrote it (with ortographical mistake and all): "My hipothesis". What you have to offer as counter-argument is another non-proved-true hypothesis (which all hypothesis are by definition).
    So? Thatís what makes arguing over it fun.[/quote]

    But when the other party doesn't want to read your arguments because is a bunch of text, it takes much of the fun.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yes. (insert a bunch of text)
    You have a bunch of text after this response to my question, but this was the only part I wanted to see.

    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    It isn't mathematics, A + B not necessarily equals C because there are Xs, Ys, Zs and Psi's that we don't take in acount when we are doing the adition.

    I never claimed to be impartial, it's the contrary, if there's a thing that upsets me is character bashing, and that was what made me write in the forums questioning the reasons of some people that (my interpretation) wrote against Tenma and Yakumo, and I pointed that.
    So I took a party, and offered my arguments which can be wrong, but I don't think so and that's why I wrote them. My hypothesis hasn't been proven false by your reasoning which is affected by your understanding of the story, but you don't offer proof only more hypothesis. But I'm not "partisan" and neither will "take arms" to defend Flag (I still don't like the factions 'nicks). I think (hope) it will come to be without me attacking to and defending from perceived enemies.
    If you have circunstancial evidence and I have circunstancial of the contrary...
    I don't care what your objectives or intentions are when you make a post. What I'm interested in is your reasoning used to make theories. I'm not going to even read explanations like this, so don't bother explaining yourself like this to me.
    This was very rude. Where is the fun that you mentioned?


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Lets review some Locical Fallacies that I pointed to Swampstorm after he acussed me of making an Ad Hominem Attack
    Let's not.
    Awww, and here I was painstakingly writing them to correct your mistakes. tch, youngsters theses days...


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    "There are also things that exist without the need of a direct observation, but the effects that they produce reveal them". -Anonymous.

    "Not only does God play dice, but he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen." - Stephen Hawking.

    "I'm Atheist" - Myself.
    I think it's funny you found a bunch of quotes in response to a quote that basically says the same message you've thrown in my face repeatedly.
    And the fun came back! Not really. Your signature makes reference to the pre-existence in our minds of concepts and reality, while my "bunch" (as a matter of fact, only two), states that there are things that exist without our conceptualization of them.


    IN CONCLUSION:

    The main problem that I've seen in your counter-arguments is that you (and Swampstorm) want ME to explain YOURS assumptions. That extra baggage that you insist to attach to my hypothesis doesn't exist (only in your reasonings), and in that I cannont help you.
    I suggest that you take a time to review what has been wrote by KJ and the other posters and then replant the theories that you favor with more proof.

    Best Regards.

 

 
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