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  1. #91
    pizza_blade is offline Member Newbie
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    Granted, I haven't read all the posts in this thread... But by just reading the last page I am relatively able to have an idea about what's going on.

    It is very, very, very, heavily, implied..., to the point that I thought as blatantly obvious that is no longer just "implied" (more like a slap in the face, actually), that Yakumo harbors romantic feelings for Harima. The recent happenings in the manga pretty much put a blatant "Yakumo likes Harima more than just a friend" sign all over the place.

    What's the point of trying to say otherwise? Really? What's the point?

    Unbelievable what some people trying to pull off in order to support their opinion.
    Last edited by pizza_blade; 03-09-2007 at 04:37 AM.

  2. #92
    liekiamhiung is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Well, seriously. i think this volume is more like a reconciliation for Yakumo and Eri toward themself so they can decide what will they do in the future.
    So let's just see what in store for us the next chap. App. 2 days again anyhow
    LONG LIVE HIME-SAMA. MY LIFE FOR RUMBLANDIA!


  3. #93
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Can't wait to see the newest chapter - Harima rumbleness is coming up for sure

  4. #94
    Swampstorm is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by pizza_blade
    It is very, very, very, heavily, implied..., to the point that I thought as blatantly obvious that is no longer just "implied" (more like a slap in the face, actually), that Yakumo harbors romantic feelings for Harima. The recent happenings in the manga pretty much put a blatant "Yakumo likes Harima more than just a friend" sign all over the place.
    The problem is that this so called "implication" isn't visible to anyone who isn't actively hoping to find an Onigiri connection. This isn't anything new, really - every chapter that Yakumo and Harima show up in the same chapter we have a group of individuals who pounce on the opportunity with "OMG, this is finally the proof!"

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There's a remarkably simple point here.
    Yakumo is upset by Eri's interest in Harima rather than by Harima's interest in Tenma. In addition, Yakumo has a history of trying to set up Harima x Tenma and interfere with Eri x Harima.

    If Yakumo loves Harima, she should have a problem with both - and be moreso affected by Tenma x Harima, because if she can't overcome that, Flag is a moot point.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My challenge is this. Find a counterargument to the above point, and then we can discuss the issue. Merely complaining about the results of that line of reasoning doesn't help either of us.

    If it's wrong, disprove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza_blade
    What's the point of trying to say otherwise? Really? What's the point?
    Simple. "Don't jump the gun." If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Let KJ write the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza_blade
    Unbelievable what some people trying to pull off in order to support their opinion.
    I agree.

  5. #95
    pizza_blade is offline Member Newbie
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    ....

    ......AhChooo!!!

    *sniff, sniff*

    ....

    Wonder when the next chapter going to show up?

    ...

    Anyway, I'd like to reply, Swamp, but too bad I am not in the mood to amuse people right now. Let's just wait for the next chappie.

    ...

    Ahchooo!!!

  6. #96
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    IT WILL BE OUT WHEN IT WILL BE OUT.

    *glare*

    Like tomorrow or whatever. Seriously, Digi is in bad mood, let me take out my anger. xD
    ~Digital_Eon~




  7. #97
    El Ultimo is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Which as I said is heavily maticed against Yakumo and that couldn't be an objetive reasoning.
    That's an Ad hominem fallacy. Simply put, who I am or what my personal views are have no bearing on whether my statements are correct or not.

    Not really. I never questioned "Who you are", It would've Ad Hominem attack if I were trying to to destroy your arguments attacking you or some of yours traits.
    In this case what I am doing doubting your premise and interpretations of recent happenings in the manga, based in the way your reffer to some of Yakumo actions. These shows prejudiced concepts.
    When you write things like:
    "Yakumo assaulted Eri" or that "Yakumo simply took advantage of Eri's good nature" or"Yakumo has God-mode in her dealings with Eri" or that "Yakumo has leaded a charmed life".

    Maybe my english isn't good enough and I'm not capting all the nuances of these claims, and if that's the case I apologize, but to me shows a tendency to put yourself in the place of "defense" of Eri and Prosecutor against Yakumo.
    Also, you say that your personal views have no bearing in the correctness of your statements but as I've told you it does when because of these, your interpetation of the scenes in the manga affects your claims. It's called Cognitive Bias

    It's told to us (throught the manga) that Eri is a rich girl, one of the most prettiest girls in the school, she is smart in most subjects, atletic (if she feels like it), very popular with the men and has excellent friends.
    In the overview it seems like a "charmed life". Of course, later in the manga we are privy to her problems: distant parents (mostly her father), and the mask that she uses when talking with not-her-friends people (altought later she stops recurring to it).
    But, how is that so much different to Yakumo's life?

    And now that we're talking about Logical Fallacies:

    Argument of Antecedent: Saying that because Yakumo hasn't demonstrated any amorous feeling towards Harima in previous chapters then in ch.215 it continues the trend.
    Also you use this when remite people to ch.206 to demostrate that Yakumo hasn't developed or discovered feelings for Harima .

    Fallacy of the Single Cause: When you say that "If Yakumo loves Harima, then she would have a problem with the fact that Harima loves Tenma, not with the fact that Eri loves Harima".

    Argument of the Straw Man: You are misinterpreting of my position, thinking that I'm argumenting that Yakumo has always loved Harima, when that's not the case, making it easier for you to refute me.

    Fallacy of Association: You say that "a slap is a slap is a slap". While the action is the same, there exist differences in the motivation. "Killing in selfdefense" can get you out of prison (with a good lawyer). Hitting somebody that insults me or a member of my family is something that won't feel bad about. If this wasn't a Comedy manga then "a kick is a kick is a kick" and Harima should've more offended (I know I would), but fortunately for the pairing I support, it wasn't the case.

    Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: When you claim that your premise is true only because those that maintain a contraries hipothesis hasn't been able to prove their's true.

    Argument from personal conviction: This is a fallacie that most people falls into (including me). It's when an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed not to be true, wich could not be the case. The lack of evidence for our hipothesis doesn't constitute evidence that your claim is true, and vice versa.

    Appeal to Emotion: This fallacie is other favorite of the "audience" and more often that not we recurreto it, like when you write: "The entire manga has constantly thrown Eri into hardship. Even from the first chapter where Eri was introduced, Tenma makes it clear that Eri comes from a lonelier household than either of the Tsukamoto sisters. When Eri broke down into tears in Ch.212 feeling that she has to give up her relationship with Harima in order to keep her friendship with Tenma, and after being assaulted by Yakumo, who did she have turn to? Her dog"
    (Just to clear some things, I think that Eri could have gone to one of her friends (obviouly not Tenma), like Yakumo went to Sara. But maybe was feeling self-pity...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm
    Sara: [weird expression] (this could mean a number of things, but the fact that the author used it is important, again, in ch. 215).
    METHA-COMENTARY: ALWAYS... FOREVER...(what?)
    Yakumo is content with knowing that Harima will never stray from his interest in Tenma - and so she is pleased that he would never choose Yakumo over her sister.
    I think that you wanted to write is that he would never choose Eri, but then again, you are writing without proof but with your understanding of the story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swampstorm
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo "say" that she doesn't love Harima, but, is that the truth? Couldn't be that she hasn't realized what she feels and in ch. 215 begin to understand herself and her past actions.
    But she only has a conflict with Eri's interest in Harima, not Harima's interest in Eri. You just can't get around that point, and that point will destroy your argument every time.
    That's a common behavior in what is called jealousy Also, if we are talking about proof, we don't know the kind of conflict she is experimenting, also Tenma is, as far as we are told, the most important person in Yakumo's life.


    [Quote]
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    She only knew that Harima loved her sister, and tought that him was good enough man to be with her beloved Nee-san, but in ch. 215 realize that thinking of Harima with Eri hurts her (my infering).
    But that only reinforces my point - she has a problem with Eri and Harima, but not Tenma and Harima. If she was interested in having a relationship with Harima, then she would have a problem with both.[quote]

    :
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    It's no the only one.
    You are welcome to pose an alternative line of reasoning, then.
    There were, but you insisted to grouping them with other hipothesis.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo loves her sister more that other person in the world, or so she thought, but I think she realized something important in 215.
    What?
    That I only can conjeture: What Yakumo though was only admiration and/or frienship was something more romantic.


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Also, I wouldn't say "the general opinion" when is just a group opinion.

    That's what the term means.
    Thats false, it's a Hasty Generalization (another logical fallacie). But even if you were right and most people who read School Rumble were of the same opinion, that would'be Argumentum ad Populum (fallacie).


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    They are not convincing.
    That's hardly my problem.
    It should be if this were a debate (wich is not really) and you were to trying to win and prove me false (or at least "challenge my ideas").


    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    And you where the one to decide that mine and others were wrong. I disagree.
    You're welcome to follow whatever viewpoint that you want. That doesn't mean that I won't challenge your ideas if I disagree, though.
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    Yakumo, in that moment (and she admited she lied to herself whith the reasons) feel angry that her innocent, good, stupid sister was being injustly berated when she tried to apologize for something that was out of her control.
    Where did she admit to lying?
    Ch. 215.
    P8:
    [Yakumo is talking about how hurt she felt when Eri was berating her sister in front of her eyes, and say]:
    Yakumo: I couldn't forgive her for that...

    P9:
    Yakumo: Nee-san... Even though she didn't know anything, she wouldn't say anything bad about her (Eri); no one thing. It hurt me from the bottom of my heart.
    Yakumo: No matter what she was thinking. She always protected me when I cried. She always did her best for me.

    Yakumo: It's been so difficult... I know that Nee-san has cried so much more than I have, but she always smiled when we were together.
    Yakumo: [imitating her sister] "Hey look It's fun Ya-mo!" "If you don't smile you can't be happy!".
    Yakumo: ...I couln't do it. I had so much respect for Nee-san.

    Yakumo: That's why I can't forgive anyone that treats her like and Idiot. I had to do what Nee-san couldn't. Not matter what she (Tenma) would say.
    Yakumo: That's what I thought when I slapped her ...But I was wrong...
    (My understanding: she thought she was slapping Eri defending her sister's dignity, but she was really doing it for other reason: jealousy)

    P10:
    Yakumo: I know... I know that Sawachika-sempai is in love with Harima-sempai.
    Yakumo: And... It hurts me so badly...

    (If I am not wrong, you claimed that in the above scene and dialog, Yakumo is sorry for interfering between Eri and Harima, but I don't see the elements of proof for that)

    Yakumo: I... What should I do? What it is that I should do...?

    Yakumo: I've buried so many things inside me ...and it's all building up...
    Yakumo: I'm becoming a terrible person.
    (My hipothesis: Yakumo say that she's becoming a terrible person because of the things she has done, trying to apart Eri and Harima for her [Yakumo] benefit, and not because she wanted to pair him with her sister)

    You're welcome to disagree with me. But that doesn't mean that I won't contradict you.
    Of course, but that arguments must be convincing to have me concede the reason to your claim.


    :
    Originally Posted by El Ultimo
    AS I said, I support (hope) for a Harima/Eri end, but choosing the wrong way to obtain it is very bad.
    That sounds like a tautology, but it doesn't tell us very much.
    Yes, I'm sorry, that was fault of my hideous english. What i was trying to say is that it's a common ocurrence to treat our favorite characters better (even sub-consciously), defending their actions and when we perceive (true or not) that they are being attacked for other people or characters in the story to bring those attitudes to the max.


    Just for the quiz:

    My favorite characters in SR:
    1st. Tenma, Eri, Harima, Hanai.
    2nd. Mikoto, Karen, Imadori, Lala
    3rd. AKira, Karasuma, Tougo
    4th. Yakumo, Sara, Asou.
    5th. Mai, Nishimoto, Nara
    6th. The rest of students of 2-C.
    7th. Teachers, Tae and other students.

    So, as you can see, Yakumo is not in my first 3 places of favoritism.

    Lets remember that this is not a fight ot be won no matter the price, the fact that to many people (rel.) thinks that Yakumo feels something for Harima is (very probably) looked for the author and it makes the story more interesting than just having Eri pining for Harima, him pining for Tenma, she pining for Karasuma, and it pining for curry.

    Best Regards.

  8. #98
    zheng1234 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    aaaaaaaaaaaaaa, i just read an essay

  9. #99
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    If I see anything in this thread that isn't constructive, I'm locking it. Last warning. El Ultimo's post was amazing, and that's the only reason I'm still leaving it open.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  10. #100
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    That's a common behavior in what is called jealousy.
    Where does it ever say that Yakumo is jealous of Eri having an interest in Harima? Just because a behaviour is common, doesn’t mean that Yakumo is acting so.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    But that only reinforces my point - she has a problem with Eri and Harima, but not Tenma and Harima. If she was interested in having a relationship with Harima, then she would have a problem with both.
    What exactly is your point? Just that she has a problem with Eri and Harima? I thought you were arguing that Yakumo was trying to break apart Eri and Harima for her own benefit; wouldn’t this mean that Yakumo does have an interest in Harima from your perspective and should have a problem with both Eri and Tenma?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Yakumo: That's why I can't forgive anyone that treats her like and Idiot. I had to do what Nee-san couldn't. Not matter what she (Tenma) would say.
    Yakumo: That's what I thought when I slapped her ...But I was wrong...
    (My understanding: she thought she was slapping Eri defending her sister's dignity, but she was really doing it for other reason: jealousy)
    Yakumo is not specific when talking about what she was wrong about. It could be that she was mistaken about her reason for slapping Eri, but Yakumo can also mean that her practise of doing what Tenma couldn't despite what she says is wrong. You can't infer which she is talking about, here, thanks to the ambiguity.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    P10:
    Yakumo: I know... I know that Sawachika-sempai is in love with Harima-sempai.
    Yakumo: And... It hurts me so badly...

    (If I am not wrong, you claimed that in the above scene and dialog, Yakumo is sorry for interfering between Eri and Harima, but I don't see the elements of proof for that)
    It’s pretty simple. Yakumo has been interfering with Eri’s relationship with Harima for a while, but she was never certain that Eri loved him. Now that she knows that Eri loves him, the fact that she’s been interfering now hurts Yakumo.

    Since Yakumo is rather vague, it can’t be confirmed this is what she’s talking about. On the other hand, since Yakumo is rather vague, it can’t be confirmed that she’s hurt because she’s jealous over Eri having feelings for Harima. So, because neither can be proven, which one is it? The simple explanation, or the complex one?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Yakumo: I've buried so many things inside me ...and it's all building up...
    Yakumo: I'm becoming a terrible person.
    (My hipothesis: Yakumo say that she's becoming a terrible person because of the things she has done, trying to apart Eri and Harima for her [Yakumo] benefit, and not because she wanted to pair him with her sister)
    It’s a hypothesis. Yakumo could simply be feeling terrible for trying to break apart Eri and Harima; that is a terrible thing to do when you know that one side is very interested in the other. Is it as complex as you make it out to be?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Just for the quiz:

    My favorite characters in SR:
    1st. Tenma, Eri, Harima, Hanai.
    2nd. Mikoto, Karen, Imadori, Lala
    3rd. AKira, Karasuma, Tougo
    4th. Yakumo, Sara, Asou.
    5th. Mai, Nishimoto, Nara
    6th. The rest of students of 2-C.
    7th. Teachers, Tae and other students.

    So, as you can see, Yakumo is not in my first 3 places of favoritism.
    Irrelevant. When you mention the problem of people's favouritism being a problem affecting many people's reasoning and then suggest that you don't have that problem, it just looks like you’re trying to raise yourself above everyone else.

    Yakumo could be your least favorite character, and you could still want her to have an interest in Harima, which would affect your reasoning, if you wanted there to be a clash between Eri and Yakumo over Harima (with Eri coming out on top).

    Quote Originally Posted by El Ultimo View Post
    Lets remember that this is not a fight ot be won no matter the price, the fact that to many people (rel.) thinks that Yakumo feels something for Harima is (very probably) looked for the author and it makes the story more interesting than just having Eri pining for Harima, him pining for Tenma, she pining for Karasuma, and it pining for curry.
    Are you one of those people that thinks that the story would be more interesting if Yakumo had an interest in Harima?
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 
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