Thread: Flag vs. Onigiri: More Discussion on the Slap

Originally Posted by ultraness

Harima tells Yakumo what to do.

Yakumo does what Harima tells her to do.

Ergo, Harima is the master, Yakumo is the slave. This is so obvious I have no idea why you'd disagree with it.

Well as i see it... it doesn't have to mean harima and yakumo is having a slave and master relationship. in some countries, when one lady is bounded by marriage, she will be willing to do her husbands biddings...i think that's what liekiamhung meant by a good husband and wife relationship.

i think u're passing judgements to early from the way they look. even in some recent chapters, when harima asked yakumo to help him she politely declined (though in order to support harima x tenma). if a slave can deny her master then it wouldnt be called S&M anymore right?

from the word "interpersonal chemistry", u can understand that what harima x yakumo have for each other is what they call mutual understanding. she understands the need for a guy to achieve his dreams which is why she helped him. even more, i dont see any reason for yakumo to refuse to help since his demands were not much of a hassle (meeting up at the rooftop, modelling).

i'd agree with liekiamhung, harmonious relationship

Originally Posted by ultraness

1. How is this going to destroy Flag? Why would Harima even believe Yakumo?
2. Harima already knows that being close to Eri endangers his relations with Tenma. Re-read Chapter 154.
3. Yakumo doesn’t know the whole story, so she can’t tell it to Harima.

If my reasonings from above is logical, harima would believe yakumo since he's been working with her in the past plus an addition that yakumo is tenma's sister. therefore just by doing that, flag might no more be of a topic of discussion.

However i agree that since harima already knows the danger of being with eri

Originally Posted by ultraness

Again, when did Yakumo express what’s most important to her?

she did.. i can remember in the anime at least that she cares most for the sister.

Originally Posted by shimano87

Well as i see it... it doesn't have to mean harima and yakumo is having a slave and master relationship. in some countries, when one lady is bounded by marriage, she will be willing to do her husbands biddings...i think that's what liekiamhung meant by a good husband and wife relationship.

Yes, in some countries a patriarchal relationship, which is what we’re speaking of, is promoted as a good husband and wife relationship. In a patriarchal relationship, though, the man is the master, and the woman is the slave, no matter how you try to sugar-coat it.

It doesn’t really matter whether or not some countries view this as a good relationship, though; what matters is whether or not Kobayashi thinks it’s good, and, judging by his strong female cast pursuing their love interests (a big no-no for women according to any supporter of patriarchy), I doubt he does.

Originally Posted by shimano87

I think u're passing judgements to early from the way they look. even in some recent chapters, when harima asked yakumo to help him she politely declined (though in order to support harima x tenma).

Yakumo still “helps” Harima, since she gets Tenma to “help” him out, which he wants even more than Yakumo coming over to help him. For Yakumo to decline his request, she’d have to both not go over to help him and not try and help out his love life.

Originally Posted by shimano87

if a slave can deny her master then it wouldnt be called S&M anymore right?

Why must you bring up S&M? There’s a difference between a relationship between two people were one does the other’s bidding, and a relationship where two people feel sexual pleasure from hurting each other.

Originally Posted by shimano87

from the word "interpersonal chemistry", u can understand that what harima x yakumo have for each other is what they call mutual understanding. she understands the need for a guy to achieve his dreams which is why she helped him. even more, i dont see any reason for yakumo to refuse to help since his demands were not much of a hassle (meeting up at the rooftop, modelling).

Mutual understanding means that they both understand each other. You only say how Yakumo “understands” Harima; however, Harima does not understand Yakumo, so they do not have a mutual understanding, which adds to their lack of chemistry.

Originally Posted by shimano87

I’d agree with liekiamhung, harmonious relationship

Harmonious relationships exist between equals. So long as Harima is the “master,” and Yakumo is the “slave,” they won’t be equal, and a harmonious relationship won’t actually exist, though it might appear to on the surface.

Originally Posted by shimano87

If my reasonings from above is logical, harima would believe yakumo since he's been working with her in the past plus an addition that yakumo is tenma's sister. therefore just by doing that, flag might no more be of a topic of discussion.

Harima doesn't trust Yakumo very much, so I doubt he'd be inclined to believe her. Notice how he adamantly refuses to admit that he likes Tenma to Yakumo? Choosing not to confide in someone means you don’t trust them.

Also, even if Yakumo does convince Harima that Eri likes her, how is this supposed to end Flag?

Moreover, keep in mind that Yakumo simply cannot end Flag by wanting to destroy it. That sort of poetic injustice is completely unacceptable in romantic comedies, and Yakumo wanting and trying to destroy Flag will actually improve Flag’s chances in the long run. Remember how Harima’s attempts at destroying True Oudou actually brought Karasuma and Tenma closer together?

Originally Posted by shimano87

She did.. i can remember in the anime at least that she cares most for the sister.

Yet again, when does she say what's most important to her? If Tenma is what's most important to Yakumo, then why is Yakumo disregarding Tenma's choice of Karasuma, and, after Chapter 211, her choice of friends?

What do you guys think of a split (starting from post #144 page 15) or a bit earlier? Since this discussion is interesting enough to have it's own thread and is no longer about Why do we like Imouto-san???? .

Originally Posted by ultraness

Yes, chemistry, as in interpersonal chemistry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_chemistry

Yes, i know what u mean. What i stated is Harima himself didn't feel the chemistry, if he does why would he said something like in chap.212 to Yakumo ?

Originally Posted by ultraness

You say yourself that Harima isn't a delinquent anymore, so why did you say he was in your earlier post?

Sorry, wrong word there. I mean he's trying to change but that he is still a deliquent. Because u can not judge a person based only by it's present but with his past too. There is no guarantee that Harima could not come back to his old days.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Tenma isn't the one that changes him, though; in reality, Harima changes himself, or fulfills his own prophecy that he won’t be a delinquent anymore after he tells himself that Tenma wouldn’t like a delinquent.

Nope, i don't agree with u. The fact that i bolded in ur statement. His love toward Tenma makes him want to changes. So Tenma is the one who changes him indirectly.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Here's the Thomas theorem, a fundamental law of sociology:

If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.

Basically, people don’t just react to situations, but to how they perceive situations and how they expect themselves to react in those situations.

Applying this to Harima, by believing himself to no longer be a delinquent he begins to change how he reacts to situations to be more suitable for a “well-behaved” person, and, as a result, he starts to become one.

I really like to know a few thing :
1. Where do Thomas do his research on, is it in the world of SR ?
2. Same as no.1 is this Thomas do his research in Eastern or Western ?
What i mean is, does even Harima read Thomas theorem? Is the full condition in the Thomas theorem met with the SR world? a theorem was based on a lot of condition.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Eri says herself that she wants to strike off on her own, without relying on her family, after she’s done high school. When Harima comments on Eri having a big house, she tells him that it’s not hers, but her father’s house. She gets a part-time job, even though she doesn’t need one. In short, Eri breaks out of the princess stereotype.

She still has that princess attitude. Remember when Harima asked her to buy "something" as a punishment when she shaves his beard ? And she up until now still relying on her family ATM.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Harima tells Yakumo what to do.
Yakumo does what Harima tells her to do.
Ergo, Harima is the master, Yakumo is the slave. This is so obvious I have no idea why you'd disagree with it.

Vice versa in Eri x Harima. Harima didn't demanded Yakumo to follow him, hell he even gave Yakumo a break when Yakumo is in exam. He didn't force her or somthing like that. Look closely to Eri x Harima potentially becoming........ I see that Eri will be ordering Harima around....

Originally Posted by ultraness

Since when does Harima think things through rationally?
Also, who’s going to tell him the whole story? The only people who know that are us readers.

Agreed, especially with Tenma in the line. See my point ?
And the whole story i mean is like :
1. Yakumo slap Eri because :
2. Eri make an appointment with Tenma but go with Harima
3. Tenma becomes a snowman and Yakumo found her in front of Eri's house

Originally Posted by ultraness

I’m emphasizing her dark side in response to people to emphasizing her good side.

Well, the way u emphasizing her dark side made her look an evil person to me. I didn't deny that the way we emphasize her good side is like she is an angel or somesort. But Yakumo = evil person ?

Originally Posted by ultraness

I brought up the topic to reinforce the point that people are confused by Yakumo’s actions, and don’t really understand her character.

Then say it clearly, it will makes people that don't see the thread thinks that the thread started because of the slap or somesort.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Resorting to physical means to resolve problems instead of using words is taking a step backwards, or regressing.

Sometimes we need to resort to violence, not always with words.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Look at Yakumo's face while she's slapping Eri in Chapter 212, and after she the slap. She's not showing emotions, which makes the slap worse.
Also, how is this a good thing?

Well, i didn't express it. But since the first time i saw her expression i saw "pity". The slap itself is showing her emotions. By action that is.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Again, what is Yakumo protecting Tenma from? Moreover, why does Tenma even need protection?

The answer to that is obvious for me, u know what are my answer. It doesn't matter wether Tenma needs the protection or not. What matter is that Yakumo still protects her sister. Or maybe i will used a word "Defend".

Originally Posted by ultraness

1. How is this going to destroy Flag? Why would Harima even believe Yakumo?
2. Harima already knows that being close to Eri endangers his relations with Tenma. Re-read Chapter 154.
3. Yakumo doesn’t know the whole story, so she can’t tell it to Harima.

1. It will flame up Harima worriedness toward the second points. There is no guarantee that Harima will believe her. But i though we were talking about action that will be taken by Yakumo if she really wanted to " destroy flag"
2. Harima is not really certain of it, but if there is a person that also pointed that what he fears is true.......
3. The whole story i mean is just like what i posted above .

Originally Posted by ultraness

Again, when did Yakumo express what’s most important to her?

Some example, remember when she first can heard her sister's though.
And other she cares so much about her sister. Cooked her, asked her what's wrong, take care of her, etc.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Then, what is she waking Eri up from, and what gives Yakumo the right to be the one to wake her up?

Waking Eri up from keeping talking like what she did. In that common none, but in the senses who gaves Eri a right to "lecture" Tenma in the first place?

Originally Posted by ultraness

Sure it could be good for Flag if Harima got pissed off that Eri got slapped, assuming that Tenma didn’t voice her dislike of the slap first.

That is weird, i hardly believe that Harima will got so pissed off by the slap ? Care to mention why ur guys believe so ?

About Shimano's comment with S&M. Ultraness i though that he/she ( i didn't know Shimano is a guy/woman ) means Slave & Master not Sadosism & Macochism ( can't spell it right ). .
But honestly i though it was that to the first time :P.

Reinard : AGREED, move it to Harima, Eri and Tenma discussion. But only if our mod willing to. As far as i know moving a reply is quite "discomforting"

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Yes, i know what u mean. What i stated is Harima himself didn't feel the chemistry.

I'm not talking about Harima's feelings; I'm talking about the connection he has with Eri.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

If he does why would he said something like in chap.212 to Yakumo ?

Believe it or not, but he can be lying to Yakumo. He isn't honest with his feelings for Tenma with Yakumo, so why should he be honest to Yakumo about how he feels about Eri?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Sorry, wrong word there. I mean he's trying to change but that he is still a deliquent. Because u can not judge a person based only by it's present but with his past too. There is no guarantee that Harima could not come back to his old days.

Is refers to present-tense, was refers to past-tense. Apply this to Harima: Harima was a delinquent, and now Harima is not really a delinquent. We're judging Harima according to present-tense, so that's what matters.

What Harima will be doesn't matter at the moment since that’s future tense and we can discuss that in the future.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Nope, i don't agree with u. The fact that i bolded in ur statement. His love toward Tenma makes him want to changes. So Tenma is the one who changes him indirectly.

Tenma doesn't tell him that she needs to change. That he needs to change is something he convinces himself without her telling him to. It's all in his own mind, based on what he thinks a fake Tenma, that he conjured on his own, wants him to do.

Tenma does not teach how to not act like a delinquent. Tenma does not condition him to not act like a delinquent by giving him rewards for behaving well, nor does she punish him for acting like a delinquent. Tenma didn’t write a book for Harima, explaining how to not act like a delinquent.

The only one changing Harima is himself.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

I really like to know a few thing :
1. Where do Thomas do his research on, is it in the world of SR ?
2. Same as no.1 is this Thomas do his research in Eastern or Western ?
What i mean is, does even Harima read Thomas theorem? Is the full condition in the Thomas theorem met with the SR world? a theorem was based on a lot of condition.

The Thomas theorem is a fundamental law of sociology, meaning it applies to everybody in societies. It doesn't matter whether Harima knows whether it exists. Most of the population don't know it exists, but still react based on it.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

She still has that princess attitude. Remember when Harima asked her to buy "something" as a punishment when she shaves his beard ? And she up until now still relying on her family ATM.

That was about 130 chapters ago. Give examples of Eri relying on her family in recent chapters, and prove that Eri does not want to strike off her own, and doesn’t like relying on her family to properly counter my points.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Vice versa in Eri x Harima. Harima didn't demanded Yakumo to follow him, hell he even gave Yakumo a break when Yakumo is in exam. He didn't force her or somthing like that.

Yes, how nice of Harima to let Yakumo eat cake.

It doesn’t matter that Harima doesn’t always demands something from Yakumo. What makes their relationship one between a master and a slave is that Yakumo does what Harima tells her to, and Yakumo does not ask for things from Harima in return. That’s why their relationship is unbalanced, and not harmonious.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Look closely to Eri x Harima potentially becoming........

Don’t worry, I have.

As you mention in the paragraph right above this one, Harima orders Eri to get tea for him in Volume 5, showing that both sides make demands. This isn’t present in a master-slave relationship, and voids the claim that they’ll become one.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

I see that Eri will be ordering Harima around....

Pointless claim.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Agreed, especially with Tenma in the line. See my point ?
And the whole story i mean is like :
1. Yakumo slap Eri because :
2. Eri make an appointment with Tenma but go with Harima
3. Tenma becomes a snowman and Yakumo found her in front of Eri's house

1. Not actually a point, nor a sentence.
2. Yakumo does not know about this, and Eri did not agree to go with Tenma, meaning Eri did not make an appointment with Tenma.
3. Not Eri's fault. That was a result of Tenma and Masaru's stupidity.

Does Yakumo know that Eri phoned her house to check if Tenma was there? Since she does not know that, among other things, Yakumo does not know the whole story.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Sometimes we need to resort to violence, not always with words.

And, why did Yakumo need to resort to violence here? Do you really think that simply telling Eri to leave her sister alone wouldn’t have worked?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Well, i didn't express it. But since the first time i saw her expression i saw "pity". The slap itself is showing her emotions. By action that is.

How is that showing pity? Hitting seniors in Japan is very disrespectful, and you don’t show pity to people by disrespecting them.

Also, hitting people is a socially unacceptable way of showing emotions, to reinforce my point that Yakumo’s social skills are regressing.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

The answer to that is obvious for me, u know what are my answer. It doesn't matter wether Tenma needs the protection or not. What matter is that Yakumo still protects her sister. Or maybe i will used a word "Defend".

If the answer is obvious to you, you'd be able to answer my question without avoiding it repeatedly.

You’re justifying Yakumo hitting Eri by saying that she was protecting Tenma, and by saying it doesn't matter if Tenma needs protection you’re saying that Yakumo doesn’t need justification for hitting people. In other words, that you think that Yakumo can attack whomever she wants to for no reason. That’s not a good thing, now is it?

And, yet again, what is Yakumo protecting, or defending, Tenma from?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

1. It will flame up Harima worriedness toward the second points. There is no guarantee that Harima will believe her. But i though we were talking about action that will be taken by Yakumo if she really wanted to " destroy flag"
2. Harima is not really certain of it, but if there is a person that also pointed that what he fears is true.......
3. The whole story i mean is just like what i posted above .

1. If there's no guarantee Harima will believe her, and, with evidence to suggest that he won't, this isn't a good point.
2. Harima is certain of it. Read Chapter 154; he clearly says "I've realized it. The more I have to do with [Eri], the more trouble I have with Tenma.”
3. Yakumo doesn't know the whole story, so she cannot tell it to Harima. She doesn't know why Eri got mad at Tenma, nor that Eri feels very guilty for what she did, and she doesn't know that Eri checked to see if Tenma was at her house.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Some example, remember when she first can heard her sister's though.
And other she cares so much about her sister. Cooked her, asked her what's wrong, take care of her, etc.

Being able to hear Tenma's thoughts means that Tenma really likes Yakumo, not that Yakumo really cares for her.

So what if Yakumo cooks for her sister, if she doesn't even support Tenma in more important matters like who Tenma chooses for as her love interest or her friends?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Waking Eri up from keeping talking like what she did.

And, what was Eri going to say that was so bad? If you read Chapter 213, you'll notice that Eri implicitly says that Tenma is more important to her than Harima, so it's highly doubtful she was going to say something terrible to Tenma.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

In that common none, but in the senses who gaves Eri a right to "lecture" Tenma in the first place?

There's nothing wrong with telling your friends how they're making you upset. It's part of the reconciliation process.

On the other hand, there are laws against physically attacking people. I'd be disgusted with Eri if she dropped to Yakumo's level and started hitting Tenma.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

That is weird, i hardly believe that Harima will got so pissed off by the slap ? Care to mention why ur guys believe so ?

First Flag chapter, Harima goes out of his way to cheer Eri up after her father leaves her in the rain. Seeing Eri depressed in the Sports Festival arc motivated Harima to cheer her up by winning the relay race. Chapter 149, Harima sees Eri alone in the rain and decides to help her. Chapter 152, Harima agrees to help Eri by going to her arranged marriage the next day. Chapter 210, Harima rationalizes that Eri will catch a cold if they don’t go somewhere warm, and that’s what motivates him to go to the love hotel.

As the chapters I mentioned indicate, Harima cares about Eri’s welfare, hence my reasoning for Harima getting upset if he finds out that Yakumo slapped her.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

About Shimano's comment with S&M. Ultraness i though that he/she ( i didn't know Shimano is a guy/woman ) means Slave & Master not Sadosism & Macochism ( can't spell it right ). .
But honestly i though it was that to the first time :P.

The acronym S&M means Sadism and Masochism, not Slave and Master. I've never heard anyone use it to mean Slave and Master before.

Originally Posted by ultraness

First Flag chapter, Harima goes out of his way to cheer Eri up after her father leaves her in the rain. Seeing Eri depressed in the Sports Festival arc motivated Harima to cheer her up by winning the relay race. Chapter 149, Harima sees Eri alone in the rain and decides to help her. Chapter 152, Harima agrees to help Eri by going to her arranged marriage the next day. Chapter 210, Harima rationalizes that Eri will catch a cold if they don’t go somewhere warm, and that’s what motivates him to go to the love hotel.

As the chapters I mentioned indicate, Harima cares about Eri’s welfare, hence my reasoning for Harima getting upset if he finds out that Yakumo slapped her.

I can't agree on that - Harima cares for Eri because he's a nice guy, not because he likes Eri in particular. Sorry, Flag lovers, but he doesn't like her like that yet. Harima is just a good guy who is nice to girls. My guess is that if he found out Yakumo slapped Eri, he'd be confused - why did Yakumo, the nice little sister, do that? - and upon finding out that Tenma was involved, support Yakumo. Remember: He STILL likes Tenma. I can't see Harima supporting Eri over Tenma, or Tenma-supporters, in any situation. I *can* see this as a source of conflict in later chapters and more reason for Eri to be jealous of Tenma (or does she know for certain that Harima likes her already...?), however.

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

I can't agree on that - Harima cares for Eri because he's a nice guy, not because he likes Eri in particular. Sorry, Flag lovers, but he doesn't like her like that yet. Harima is just a good guy who is nice to girls. My guess is that if he found out Yakumo slapped Eri, he'd be confused - why did Yakumo, the nice little sister, do that? - and upon finding out that Tenma was involved, support Yakumo. Remember: He STILL likes Tenma. I can't see Harima supporting Eri over Tenma, or Tenma-supporters, in any situation. I *can* see this as a source of conflict in later chapters and more reason for Eri to be jealous of Tenma (or does she know for certain that Harima likes her already...?), however.

I'm not using those chapters to argue that Harima likes Eri, but to argue that Harima won't like the fact that Yakumo slapped her if he finds out.

That Harima won't like it, you mean? I still think he'd be more confused - not angry, but certainly shocked, because he knows Yakumo pretty well and it's definitely something that someone with her personality probably wouldn't do... but not angry.

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

That Harima won't like it, you mean? I still think he'd be more confused - not angry, but certainly shocked, because he knows Yakumo pretty well and it's definitely something that someone with her personality probably wouldn't do... but not angry.

What exactly does Harima know about Yakumo? I don't recall him asking about her secrets and I don't remember him thinking about her very much, and giving us a clear view of how he thinks about her.

That's why I'm basing my reasoning on his interactions with Eri, since there are previous scenes with Harima reacting to Eri getting hurt and possibly being hurt.

Well... I don't think he knows very much about her specifically - and I'm not an Onigiri supporter, so I don't know very much about their interactions - but he's spent a lot of time around her due to the manga, and mutual friends. It's easy to see that Yakumo isn't the kind of person who would do that, and Harima has never seen her behave like that. He probably wouldn't know what to think after seeing such a drastic change in her behaviour, and it seems to me like he'd be more confused over that than angry that she slapped Eri - I could be wrong here, but doesn't he still have a few issues with Eri and doesn't particularly like her character even if he is nice? (As I said... I could be wrong.)