Thread: Flag vs. Onigiri: More Discussion on the Slap

It might be very pro-Onigiri and anti-Flag if Harima learnt that about the reason she did it - Eri threated Tenma pretty harsh. It's pretty obvious which side would Harima take. Fortunately, I don't see that happen -Tenma and Eri aren't angry at each other any more and Yakumo has absolutely no reasons to bring this up, same with Eri (seems she doesn't hold a grudge to it..shame, I wanted some welding machine actions).

But then it wouldn't be Onigiri - it would be an Oodou reaction, if he's happy that Yakumo defended Tenma. It'd be like being proud of a little sister.

Maybe it will appear, and the chainsaw and welding machine will crash with each other

^just made it

He could say "You did well, Imouto-san - damn that Ojou !!"

Originally Posted by Kolox

It might be very pro-Onigiri and anti-Flag if Harima learnt that about the reason she did it - Eri threated Tenma pretty harsh.

Uh, Eri wasn't threatening Tenma; she was scolding her. Yakumo wasn't protecting Tenma from anything.

Originally Posted by Kolox

It's pretty obvious which side would Harima take. Fortunately, I don't see that happen -Tenma and Eri aren't angry at each other any more...

Is it? Harima doesn't react positively to anything that hurts Eri, or he might go through a guilt trip because he "cheated" on Tenma and be too depressed to even pick a side.

Also, Tenma is on Eri's side in this situation, and Harima supports Tenma, not Yakumo.

Originally Posted by Kolox

...Yakumo has absolutely no reasons to bring this up, same with Eri (seems she doesn't hold a grudge to it..shame, I wanted some welding machine actions).

Actually, Yakumo might bring it up in an attempt to destroy Flag since she reveals herself to be anti-Flag in Chapter 206.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Uh, Eri wasn't threatening Tenma; she was scolding her. Yakumo wasn't protecting Tenma from anything.

Wrong word. Sorry for my engrish Treated She treated her harshly.

Is it? Harima doesn't react positively to anything that hurts Eri, or he might go through a guilt trip because he "cheated" on Tenma and be too depressed to even pick a side.

Also, Tenma is on Eri's side in this situation, and Harima supports Tenma, not Yakumo.

I think he is more Tenma-idiot than you think he is. So great, he wouldn't even listen to Tenma because he knows better
Moreover, Harima might think (Harima thinking mode) that Tenma was bewitched by Ojou for some reasons. So she doesn't know what's good for her.

Actually, Yakumo might bring it up in an attempt to destroy Flag since she reveals herself to be anti-Flag in Chapter 206.

Doesn't fit her character - she never did such thing and she will never do. Moreover, she believes in Harima. She doesn't feel like she needs to do everything about it.

Originally Posted by Kolox

I think he is more Tenma-idiot than you think he is. So great, he wouldn't even listen to Tenma because he knows better
Moreover, Harima might think (Harima thinking mode) that Tenma was bewitched by Ojou for some reasons. So she doesn't know what's good for her.

Whatever. It doesn't matter if Harima ignores Tenma like that; he'll just be decreasing his own chances of getting together with her in the end.

Regardless, even if he thought that Tenma was wrong, he'd probably still do whatever he thinks she wants him to do. Re-read Chapter 205 to remember the lengths Harima will go to make Tenma "happy."

Originally Posted by Kolox

Doesn't fit her character - she never did such thing and she will never do. Moreover, she believes in Harima. She doesn't feel like she needs to do everything about it.

What is Yakumo's character? I have trouble predicting what she's going to do since Kobayashi never tells us much about Yakumo.

Most people would have said that Yakumo wouldn't slap Eri before Chapter 211, claiming that "Yakumo is a good girl." However, that chapter shows that Yakumo is very capable and willing to participate in acts that don't fit in with her "good girl" image that Kobayashi initially showed us.

1# Considering if he has any chances He can do anything for Tenma, agreed - but it's Tenma and Harima we are talking about. Every time Tenma says something to Harima, he seems to interpret it the way he would like to hear it - same with Tenma here. So it's better for Flag if Harima will not mess into this.

2# Is really simple character. Since she has this ability, she is scared of people, so she mostly avoids them. Not only because they true feelings are mostly negative, but moreover - she doesn't want to read them at all. She feels secure with her sister (which mind which she can read, doesn't make sense at all - so it's like not seeing it at all), with her friend Sarah and sempai Akira and with Harima.
Since this is a pretty limited number of friends, she devotes herself fully for them - problem is, she mostly doesn't know how to do it - she is asked to do something but she can't take initiative. Probably because she is unskilled with socializing with people and she doesn't know what to do.

I was surprised with the slap not because Yakumo is a "good girl"..well, she is one - but that's not a point. I was surprised she actually did something. Lately we see Yakumo getting more socialized with other people (all those chapters with her and her classmates) and she actually gained skill to show her emotions. From clueless and shy Yakumo we have Yakumo the protector of her friends.

But she is still a newbie in all this. Surely, if she wanted to destroy flag or have chances with Harima, she has lots of opportunities. On the other hand, she doesn't really know if she wants to do that.
- She believes Flag won't happen
- She won't consider her feelings towards Harima as love (all those ghost chapters are about that).

Yakumo is pretty clear about what's most important for her and her determination.

Actually, if she really was angry at Eri, it wouldn't end up with only slap.

Originally Posted by Kolox

1# Considering if he has any chances He can do anything for Tenma, agreed - but it's Tenma and Harima we are talking about. Every time Tenma says something to Harima, he seems to interpret it the way he would like to hear it - same with Tenma here. So it's better for Flag if Harima will not mess into this.

Specifically, Harima interprets what Tenma says into words that fit his delusional vision of her that loves him. Why would he have trouble understanding “Yakumo was mean to Eri and hit her, and I don’t like that?”

Originally Posted by Kolox

2# Is really simple character. Since she has this ability, she is scared of people, so she mostly avoids them. Not only because they true feelings are mostly negative, but moreover - she doesn't want to read them at all. She feels secure with her sister (which mind which she can read, doesn't make sense at all - so it's like not seeing it at all), with her friend Sarah and sempai Akira and with Harima. Since this is a pretty limited number of friends, she devotes herself fully for them - problem is, she mostly doesn't know how to do it - she is asked to do something but she can't take initiative. Probably because she is unskilled with socializing with people and she doesn't know what to do.

Indeed, this is a simple character analysis, but Yakumo is more complex than your analysis. For example, your basic description doesn't explain Yakumo's darker behaviour, such as the slap.

Originally Posted by Kolox

I was surprised with the slap not because Yakumo is a "good girl"..well, she is one - but that's not a point. I was surprised she actually did something.

Perhaps you were just surprised that she did something, but many people were surprised that she slapped Eri because it went against Yakumo's "good girl" image. Hence, reinard-fox's "Yakumo's Sudden Change or WTF is going on?!" topic.

Originally Posted by Kolox

Lately we see Yakumo getting more socialized with other people (all those chapters with her and her classmates) and she actually gained skill to show her emotions..

We haven’t seen Yakumo getting more social, lately. In fact, we’ve barely seen Yakumo in recent chapters, and the last time she appeared her social skills regressed.

I don’t recall her showing more emotions, either. When was this?

Originally Posted by Kolox

From clueless and shy Yakumo we have Yakumo the protector of her friends.

Who was she protecting?

You seem to be writing your own story in this post.

Originally Posted by Kolox

- She believes Flag won't happen

And, what will Yakumo do if she starts believing that Flag will happen? To her, Harima's "not the kind of person that would change his mind." What's there to say that Yakumo won't try to do whatever she can to stop Flag if Harima starts acting against her perception of him?

Originally Posted by Kolox

Yakumo is pretty clear about what's most important for her and her determination.

When did Yakumo clearly express what’s most important to her?

Originally Posted by Kolox

Actually, if she really was angry at Eri, it wouldn't end up with only slap.

Yakumo doesn't look angry at Eri on the first page of Chapter 212. Now, if Yakumo wasn't angry at Eri, why would she slap her?

Originally Posted by ultraness

Eri and Harima look like a stereotypical "Lady and the Tramp" couple, but if you look deeper into their characters you'll see that Harima isn't really a delinquent, nor is Eri a princess-type character. To me, they’re suitable together since they act most like themselves around each other, leading to their excellent chemistry which I enjoy reading.

Excellent chemistry ? Wow, with all that missunderstanding is there an excellent chemistry for Harima ? For Eri there is though i admit....
Not a deliquent ? Harima before meeting Tenma is a very deliquent person ! He changed cause he like Tenma. Not a Princess type ? See again, who has a short tempered type and a wealthy family ? Who has a Butler ?

Originally Posted by ultraness

In my opinion, Onigiri is unsuitable because it's basically a master-slave relationship, and the two characters become static whenever they’re together and stop developing.

Master-slave relationship is more likely within Flag ! In Onigiri i see a good husband and wife relationship, a harmony like.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Specifically, Harima interprets what Tenma says into words that fit his delusional vision of her that loves him. Why would he have trouble understanding “Yakumo was mean to Eri and hit her, and I don’t like that?”

Yes, but he would also be thinking why did Yakumo being mean to Eri ( it is more likely he will believe because Eri being so mean to Tenma in the first place, if he heard the whole story ? )

Originally Posted by ultraness

Indeed, this is a simple character analysis, but Yakumo is more complex than your analysis. For example, your basic description doesn't explain Yakumo's darker behaviour, such as the slap.

Dark ???? Every body in this world has a dark side and a good side. You seems to be disregarding this fact by emphasizing a dark side of Yakumo too much. She has a lot of good side too. Good > Dark so until now she is still a good girl.
( if we are going to take a stand that the slap was a dark side ?! )

Originally Posted by ultraness

Perhaps you were just surprised that she did something, but many people were surprised that she slapped Eri because it went against Yakumo's "good girl" image. Hence, reinard-fox's "Yakumo's Sudden Change or WTF is going on?!" topic.

The topic it self was opened before the slapped and wasn't it to discuss why Yakumo support Odou not True Odou. In my opinion that is what Reinard-kun asking about

Originally Posted by ultraness

We haven’t seen Yakumo getting more social, lately. In fact, we’ve barely seen Yakumo in recent chapters, and the last time she appeared her social skills regressed.

I don’t recall her showing more emotions, either. When was this?

Regressed ? Harsh word indeed. She has her social skill improve. She can now react to something more than just be a silent girl. Showing emotion = slapping !

Originally Posted by ultraness

Who was she protecting?

You seem to be writing your own story in this post.

Everybody wrote their own story...... IMHO she is protecting her sister named Tsukamoto Tenma ( for one example ). I do not know which Kolox mean though

Originally Posted by ultraness

And, what will Yakumo do if she starts believing that Flag will happen? To her, Harima's "not the kind of person that would change his mind." What's there to say that Yakumo won't try to do whatever she can to stop Flag if Harima starts acting against her perception of him?

Well, there is none. But if she wants to destroy Flag quite simple :
1. Tell Harima that Eri liked her ( assumptions that Yakumo knows it )
2. Tell Harima that his closeness with Eri has endangered his "future relation" with Tenma
3. When she called Harima in chap.212 she can tell the whole story.

Originally Posted by ultraness

When did Yakumo clearly express what’s most important to her?

She did altough not explicitly, just like Eri's cases.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Yakumo doesn't look angry at Eri on the first page of Chapter 212. Now, if Yakumo wasn't angry at Eri, why would she slap her?

Angry She is, but in this case i am with Vincent's side. A wake up slap.

Oh, I think it would catch Harima's attention if he learned that Yakumo slapped Eri, although I doubt his reaction would be pro-Onigiri.

Agreed, possibly would be pro-odou, but not flag either .

Why don’t you just say that you want a chapter that develops Onigiri in a positive direction?

BTW : Kolox, if u feel troubled by me answering Ultraness in my own POV please notify me. thanks

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Excellent chemistry ? Wow, with all that missunderstanding is there an excellent chemistry for Harima ? For Eri there is though i admit....

Yes, chemistry, as in interpersonal chemistry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_chemistry

Read any of the numerous chapters of them bantering with each other, or any of the chapters when they stick up for each other when it really matters.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Not a deliquent ? Harima before meeting Tenma is a very deliquent person ! He changed cause he like Tenma. Not a Princess type ? See again, who has a short tempered type and a wealthy family ? Who has a Butler ?

You say yourself that Harima isn't a delinquent anymore, so why did you say he was in your earlier post?

Tenma isn't the one that changes him, though; in reality, Harima changes himself, or fulfills his own prophecy that he won’t be a delinquent anymore after he tells himself that Tenma wouldn’t like a delinquent.

Here's the Thomas theorem, a fundamental law of sociology:

If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences.

Basically, people don’t just react to situations, but to how they perceive situations and how they expect themselves to react in those situations.

Applying this to Harima, by believing himself to no longer be a delinquent he begins to change how he reacts to situations to be more suitable for a “well-behaved” person, and, as a result, he starts to become one.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Not a Princess type ? See again, who has a short tempered type and a wealthy family ? Who has a Butler ?

Eri says herself that she wants to strike off on her own, without relying on her family, after she’s done high school. When Harima comments on Eri having a big house, she tells him that it’s not hers, but her father’s house. She gets a part-time job, even though she doesn’t need one. In short, Eri breaks out of the princess stereotype.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Master-slave relationship is more likely within Flag ! In Onigiri i see a good husband and wife relationship, a harmony like.

Harima tells Yakumo what to do.

Yakumo does what Harima tells her to do.

Ergo, Harima is the master, Yakumo is the slave. This is so obvious I have no idea why you'd disagree with it.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Yes, but he would also be thinking why did Yakumo being mean to Eri ( it is more likely he will believe because Eri being so mean to Tenma in the first place, if he heard the whole story ? )

Since when does Harima think things through rationally?

Also, who’s going to tell him the whole story? The only people who know that are us readers.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Dark ???? Every body in this world has a dark side and a good side. You seems to be disregarding this fact by emphasizing a dark side of Yakumo too much. She has a lot of good side too. Good > Dark so until now she is still a good girl.
( if we are going to take a stand that the slap was a dark side ?! )

I’m emphasizing her dark side in response to people to emphasizing her good side.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

The topic it self was opened before the slapped and wasn't it to discuss why Yakumo support Odou not True Odou. In my opinion that is what Reinard-kun asking about

I brought up the topic to reinforce the point that people are confused by Yakumo’s actions, and don’t really understand her character.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Regressed ? Harsh word indeed. She has her social skill improve. She can now react to something more than just be a silent girl

Resorting to physical means to resolve problems instead of using words is taking a step backwards, or regressing.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Showing emotion = slapping !

Look at Yakumo's face while she's slapping Eri in Chapter 212, and after she the slap. She's not showing emotions, which makes the slap worse.

Also, how is this a good thing?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Everybody wrote their own story...... IMHO she is protecting her sister named Tsukamoto Tenma ( for one example ). I do not know which Kolox mean though

Again, what is Yakumo protecting Tenma from? Moreover, why does Tenma even need protection?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Well, there is none. But if she wants to destroy Flag quite simple :
1. Tell Harima that Eri liked her ( assumptions that Yakumo knows it )
2. Tell Harima that his closeness with Eri has endangered his "future relation" with Tenma
3. When she called Harima in chap.212 she can tell the whole story.

1. How is this going to destroy Flag? Why would Harima even believe Yakumo?
2. Harima already knows that being close to Eri endangers his relations with Tenma. Re-read Chapter 154.
3. Yakumo doesn’t know the whole story, so she can’t tell it to Harima.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

She did altough not explicitly, just like Eri's cases.

Again, when did Yakumo express what’s most important to her?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Angry She is, but in this case i am with Vincent's side. A wake up slap.

Then, what is she waking Eri up from, and what gives Yakumo the right to be the one to wake her up?

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Agreed, possibly would be pro-odou, but not flag either

Sure it could be good for Flag if Harima got pissed off that Eri got slapped, assuming that Tenma didn’t voice her dislike of the slap first.