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  1. #31
    YuYo is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    I wouldn’t commend Tenma on being foolish enough to stay outside during a blizzard. In real life, she would have died if she did that.
    And that is why we are glad to know this is a manga where her act in staying outside was meant to show her willingness to go at any lenght to reconcile with her friend.


    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    It doesn’t matter if they remember that situation, either. What matters is if Tenma still gets mad with anyone interfering with her relationship with Karasuma, since that will determine whether or not she’s capable of empathizing with Eri.
    Which would be relevant to this situation if she knew that in Eris eyes she had interfered with her relationship.Which she BTW hasn't.Eri and Harima are not in a relationship of any kind and even Eri knows it.That's why she is so desperately trying to change the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    I didn’t think much would happen after the slap other than Tenma getting mad at Yakumo.
    But she didn't.She was surprised and shocked,but in no way angry at her



    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    As for why Yakumo slapped Eri, Kobayashi hasn’t shed much light on Yakumo’s reasoning so you’re likely to believe whatever logic best suits your opinion of Yakumo. I don’t think there’s enough evidence to confirm why she slapped Eri at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    I thought the slap ended something explosive, since Eri seemed to be on the verge of telling something important to Tenma.
    And you are falling in your own reasoning when claiming this.You said that since there is no evidence proving that Yakumo slapped Eri out of anger for Eris treatment of her sister she is a villain,but when there is no evidence what so ever that Eri was about to apologise she suddenly was obviously trying to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    Naturally, they’re both acting immature; we wouldn’t have much of a story if they weren’t.
    Why is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    Yakumo had her dark expression on after the slap, which bodes poorly for her future role in the plot.
    Her expression is angry.Which from we may deduce that she was angry at Eri for something she said or did.More than likely she was angry at her because of Tenma(but that's just my reasoning) I see no reason why this would be detrimental for her future on the plot.


    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    I disagree. I'm talking about protagonists and antagonists from a literature perspective where the protagonist is the focal character whom develops throughout the story, and antagonist is the one causing the character to develop. From this view, Eri is clearly the main protagonist, and Yakumo is being set up as the antagonist.
    Agreed.Unfortunately it has been clear from almost the very beginning that Onigiri is not going to happen,but that doesn't stop me from hoping
    Nietzsche is dead
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  2. #32
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    What part of the manga suggests that Eri knew she was going to get hurt? I don’t remember anything that suggests this is the case.
    None, but she knew she was doing the bad thing and she didn't felt it was right in chapter 211 - it's pretty simple to guess she isn't helping Tenma or herself that way. I wouldn't be happy afterwards saying something like that to my friend (even if it was true - and in this situation, it wasn't, so it's even more painful).
    Of course we can consider that Eri is stupid and she can't take responsibility for her actions and she isn't responsible for anything. But I believe she isn't an idiot and that she knew what she was doing - that' why I can't sympathize with her.

    How so? I thought it was Tenma proving herself to Eri by spending a night in a blizzard that enabled the two reconcile.
    Yakumo shut Eri's mouth before she said something she could regret for the rest of her life. One more word from Eri and it could be much worse. Although you can do it without slapping ....

  3. #33
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by YuYo View Post
    And that is why we are glad to know this is a manga where her act in staying outside was meant to show her willingness to go at any length to reconcile with her friend.
    Glad? Im not glad that she should be dead. It showed her devotion but it also proved how much of an idiot she can be.

    Which would be relevant to this situation if she knew that in Eris eyes she had interfered with her relationship.Which she BTW hasn't.Eri and Harima are not in a relationship of any kind and even Eri knows it.That's why she is so desperately trying to change the situation.
    Except that Karasuma and Tenma weren't in a relationship either...hmm.


    And you are falling in your own reasoning when claiming this.You said that since there is no evidence proving that Yakumo slapped Eri out of anger for Eris treatment of her sister she is a villain,but when there is no evidence what so ever that Eri was about to apologise she suddenly was obviously trying to do so.
    Actually, no he isn't. He just said that it ended Eri's conversation (which is fact), in no way did he mention that it was Yakumo's intent but it is definitely a possibility as to why she ended the conversation.
    Yet again he just stated a fact.


    Why is that?
    ...seriously? You don't see the immaturity of Eri's treatment towards Tenma, and Tenma's immaturity when it comes to resolving something she has no idea that she did or did not do.


    Her expression is angry.Which from we may deduce that she was angry at Eri for something she said or did.More than likely she was angry at her because of Tenma(but that's just my reasoning) I see no reason why this would be detrimental for her future on the plot.
    It may change Yakumo into an antagonist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    None, but she knew she was doing the bad thing and she didn't felt it was right in chapter 211 - it's pretty simple to guess she isn't helping Tenma or herself that way. I wouldn't be happy afterwards saying something like that to my friend (even if it was true - and in this situation, it wasn't, so it's even more painful).
    That hardly means anything, it still doesn't mean she could have foreseen the outcome of being so cold towards Tenma. Everyone has done things wrong only to look back as see how stupid it was to do it.

    Of course we can consider that Eri is stupid and she can't take responsibility for her actions and she isn't responsible for anything. But I believe she isn't an idiot and that she knew what she was doing - that' why I can't sympathize with her.
    Actually, yea, she has realized she has done something wrong and is responsible.

    Yakumo shut Eri's mouth before she said something she could regret for the rest of her life. One more word from Eri and it could be much worse. Although you can do it without slapping ....
    Assumptions, theres no way to know what was going to come out of her mouth just then, and it looks like we won't ever know.

  4. #34
    GrapeJuice is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    First i want to defend Eri.
    What Eri thought in chapter 211 is something like: "what should i do? if i start going easy on her, will things go back to how they used to be? Do i just back off?"
    In this chapter we have a bit more clues, when Eri thought: "we always smile from bottom of our heart when she around.... i stole that precious smile from her. we can't go back to that time."
    From those two, we can prove (well in theory through)that "go back to how they used to be" in Eri's mind was back when Tenma smile to her still pure and innocent, when she do not really see Tenma as a rival in chasing after her love. From that what she thought in Chapter 211 turned to be: "what should i do? if i start going easy on her while pursueing Harima, will i be able to see Tenma's smile as innocent and precious like it was before anymore? Should i back off now?"*then pause a few mins*"overall the most important thing to me is... (highest probablity is "friendship").
    It also can mean Eri actually value Tenma's insensitive personaily and the precious carefree smile, and she afraid to lose it if she keep going to take Harima into their friendship.
    Conclusion: the theory about Eri ACTUALLY want Tenma to grow up and notice more about other, start to weight less after this chapter; and the chance that Eri final sentence in last chapter may turn the situation to worse, also may less likely(sorry for that , Kolox ).
    Especially, we can be sure no matter what Eri say to Tenma , Tenma will still apologise rather than be angry and turn agressive to Eri, so the slap will have no meaning if Eri finished sentence as an insult. However if Eri last word actually to make up then KJ can make sure the slap result in: Tenma and Eri back to normal relationship when escalate Eri and Yakumo confliction to a new level (with their roles are reversed this time)

    Now is defending Tenma.
    The confliction between Eri and tenma can't be advoided as long as the triangle Eri-Harima-Tenma keep going on so Tenma that day maybe just start it a bit earlier. As some of us said Tenma actually did try to find the reason why Eri so mad at her (the CD, confession letter, rollcake ^^...) but her insensitive in love block her view for the right reason.
    Personally i think Tenma made right move when trying to say sorry first without knowing the reason to make up the relationship , then try to find the reason Eri was mad later either if Eri tell her, or go look for it by herself;( however i can't see through future to make sure if Tenma actually will try to do it.)
    Secondly , I admire Tenma because the escalating confliction with Eri was fixed up mainly by Tenma's action (which was kind of quite impossible to solve by other ways), and one word was the reason for all those :"trust".
    She trust her friend.... trust Eri is a good person and must have her own reason to do things; even after Eri scold(some of us may like to use "insult") her after she have to wait all night "inside" the snow
    Some of us may call it "trust blindly " (or something like that). However because of that Tenma can get through the barrier of Eri's fake speak to get to Eri 's real intention, and the result as we saw.

    Finally i will try to defend Yakumo.
    Even when Yakumo's slap was often referred as "only justified in her own view but not in reader's". However her slap, other than either "defending her sister" or "unreasonable agressive", actually just extending Eri and Tenma broken relationship for exactly one more day. However in the same time it actually:
    -strengthen Eri & Tenma 's relationship much more than if everything is resolved since chapter 211
    -give Tenma a chance to make Yakumo realise that she capable to protect herself
    -give Eri a bit more in her character development.
    -give Yakumo a LOTS more chance to develop, (break her current passive, let her express feelings instead of keep hiding it... Oginiri raise )
    -bring the old confliction to light, help to resolve it openly
    -more oppoturnities for KJ to develop the story, which make SR more enjoyable for us ^^

    So in short, still keep my idea: no one should be blamed AT ALL and it was fun to watch SR, seeing the stoyline was twisted and character is developed

    PS: the thought of SR may stop at season 3 struck me T____T.
    KJ , what about end SR season 3 with Tenma reject Harima, and the relationship turn to be clear; then season 4 completely go focus on Flag, Oginiri(without Haima's tunnel vision), and maybe other faction (either new or old)?
    *sigh* but then Tenma will not involved so much anymore *sigh*
    Last edited by GrapeJuice; 02-11-2007 at 08:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox
    She(Yakumo) is cute when she is embarrassed. And she has such nasty thoughts...come on, what's more perverted than going under the same umbrella

  5. #35
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    That hardly means anything, it still doesn't mean she could have foreseen the outcome of being so cold towards Tenma. Everyone has done things wrong only to look back as see how stupid it was to do it.
    You don't need to foreseen it - you feel your doing something wrong and you if your really feel bad about it now, it's normal you will feel about it afterwards.
    Might this be too farfetched, but there was a book called "Crime and Punishment" written by Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky, where main hero killed the landlady because he couldn't pay a rent. He knew he was doing something bad, he hesistated to kill her but eventually he did that. Afterwards, feelings of guilt hurt him so much he reported himself to police and went to jail. Here we have a little less dramatic situation....

    Actually, yea, she has realized she has done something wrong and is responsible.
    So there, she admits it, then it's ok. But I won't sympathize her. She did bad things and she should know what to do now... although it seems hard for her. Fortunately, Tenma is a pretty stubborn girl and she won't give up so easly... fortunately for Eri, because someone other than Tenma would just cross out her from her friend list. There lots of people who stops being friends, if the other side gets mad for no reason.

    Assumptions, theres no way to know what was going to come out of her mouth just then, and it looks like we won't ever know.
    Nothing good came out from her mouth that time, i think it was better for Eri to shut up Seriously, she wasn't going into right direction if she wanted to reconcile and don't feel guilty afterwards even more.

  6. #36
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    You don't need to foreseen it - you feel your doing something wrong and you if your really feel bad about it now, it's normal you will feel about it afterwards.
    Might this be too farfetched, but there was a book called "Crime and Punishment" written by Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky, where main hero killed the landlady because he couldn't pay a rent. He knew he was doing something bad, he hesistated to kill her but eventually he did that. Afterwards, feelings of guilt hurt him so much he reported himself to police and went to jail. Here we have a little less dramatic situation....
    Thats very farfetched. murder =/= cold shoulder
    Eri's transgressions are far from unredeemable, and in fact she has redeemed herself.


    So there, she admits it, then it's ok. But I won't sympathize her. She did bad things and she should know what to do now...
    Who was asking for sympathy? The point is Eri seems to have done the right thing now.

    although it seems hard for her. Fortunately, Tenma is a pretty stubborn girl and she won't give up so easly... fortunately for Eri, because someone other than Tenma would just cross out her from her friend list. There lots of people who stops being friends, if the other side gets mad for no reason.
    Abandoning a friend for something like that doesn't show much of a strong bond. Im confident none of Eri's friends would abandon her for this.


    Nothing good came out from her mouth that time, i think it was better for Eri to shut up Seriously, she wasn't going into right direction if she wanted to reconcile and don't feel guilty afterwards even more.
    Seems you totally missed her train of thought. Once again you're only assuming she would have said something bad when theres no way to tell.

  7. #37
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Thats very farfetched. murder =/= cold shoulder
    Eri's transgressions are far from unredeemable, and in fact she has redeemed herself.
    It wasn't about if she redeemed herself or not, but about her feeling bad or not. She knew what she was doing, she should be conscious of the afterwards and I don't take argument as "but see how she suffers now" as her for wanting to reconcile. It's actions which speaks for person, not just thoughts. At least Tenma understand that.

    Who was asking for sympathy? The point is Eri seems to have done the right thing now.
    She has done right thing, although I doubt she would brought herself to do it if it wasn't for Tenma and her extraodrinary way of apologizing.

    Abandoning a friend for something like that doesn't show much of a strong bond. Im confident none of Eri's friends would abandon her for this.
    It's quite normal - people who get mad for no reason aren't people you can have any relationship - be it friends or lovers. The only think which speaks for Eri is fact, that she wasn't getting mad at Tenma before at this level and Tenma personality, which it seems to be self-sacrificing. Eri should be proud she has such friends, seriously.

    Seems you totally missed her train of thought. Once again you're only assuming she would have said something bad when theres no way to tell.
    Hmm, so let's analyse it.
    ...Tenma didn't do anything wrong --> I want to reconcile --> But wait.. --> Then nothing will change --> She should change ---> So I shouldn't back off --> That's right, it's not my fault, It's Tenma being ignorant --> If I just back off now, all this will make me look stupid and it was worthless ---> So I should (BAH - Slap )

  8. #38
    YuYo is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Glad? Im not glad that she should be dead.
    Did you even read the parts that I quoted or just the answers?Reading this post I see so many strange answers that have no relevance to my post what so ever

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Except that Karasuma and Tenma weren't in a relationship either...hmm.
    And how does that change anything in my statement?I'm confused as to how you seem to claim that she should understand Eris situation based on something that neither of them remembers anymore?The fact that Eri and Harima are not dating still remains.She has not even told her feelings to Harima or anyone else for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Actually, no he isn't. He just said that it ended Eri's conversation (which is fact), in no way did he mention that it was Yakumo's intent but it is definitely a possibility as to why she ended the conversation.
    Yet again he just stated a fact.
    I guess either I wrote it in a hard to understand way or you misunderstood it,so I'll try again.

    Ultraness and Swampstorm have made comments as to why Yakumo slapped her.Making claims that she acted out of jealosy and so forth without any base to these claims.And when ppl said that Yakumo acted out of anger for Eri talking down on Tenma.Ultra answered that there is no evidence to back their claim.

    Then later on he seems to make a claim that when Yakumo slapped Eri she was just about to say something "important" rather then just continuing to denounce Tenma.
    But since there is no evidence pointing either way he contradicts himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    ...seriously? You don't see the immaturity of Eri's treatment towards Tenma, and Tenma's immaturity when it comes to resolving something she has no idea that she did or did not do.
    I have to again ask did you really read my post or someone elses?He said that if they weren't acting like kids there wouldn't be much of a story.And miraculously there has been guite a lot of fantastic storytelling going on without them being immature.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    It may change Yakumo into an antagonist.
    Eri seemed to take the slap as a deserved one so I don't know will KJ even return to it again.To become an antagonist she would need a lot of char developement as it is now she wouldn't cause any kind od growth in Eris character.
    Nietzsche is dead
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  9. #39
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    I'm starting to doubt if the "slap" matter will be continued in future - Tenma is forgetful fellow - as long as Eri isn't mad at her anymore, she doesn't mind anything. As for Eri, she probably won't brought it up by herself.. what will she say Yakumo ? "How dare you !! You slapped me !! Take that (chainsaw)"....not going happen.
    Yakumo is the only one who could go to Eri and say something more to Eri, but as long as Tenma is happy, there is no subject to talk about. Although I'm not really satisfied with this outcome - probably another bloody marry clash will appear if onigiri will be reborn (IF it will be reborn, it still doesn't seem Yakumo will do that).

  10. #40
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    It wasn't about if she redeemed herself or not, but about her feeling bad or not. She knew what she was doing, she should be conscious of the afterwards and I don't take argument as "but see how she suffers now" as her for wanting to reconcile. It's actions which speaks for person, not just thoughts. At least Tenma understand that.
    1. She did feel bad, she is dealing with something she hasn't dealt with before. Her thoughts actually very important, in fact she could have made things better pre-slap. Thanks to Yakumo we won't know that.
    All 3 of the involved characters when about this situation in the wrong way, even if Tenma had the best intentions her actions were reckless.

    2. I was referring to your Crime and Punishment analogy.


    She has done right thing, although I doubt she would brought herself to do it if it wasn't for Tenma and her extraodrinary way of apologizing.
    I doubt Tenma was the only reason, Eri has a conscience. Tenma did indeed push it to the surface faster though, id just like her not to almost die doing it.


    It's quite normal - people who get mad for no reason aren't people you can have any relationship - be it friends or lovers. The only think which speaks for Eri is fact, that she wasn't getting mad at Tenma before at this level and Tenma personality, which it seems to be self-sacrificing. Eri should be proud she has such friends, seriously.
    You act as if Eri getting mad is a routine, we only know that she gets truly mad about anything in relation to a girl getting close to Harima. Normally Eri is a decent person, Mikoto, Akira, and Tenma wouldn't befriend her otherwise. They just don't know the full story behind her feelings for Harima yet.


    Hmm, so let's analyse it.
    ...Tenma didn't do anything wrong --> I want to reconcile --> But wait.. --> Then nothing will change --> She should change ---> So I shouldn't back off --> That's right, it's not my fault, It's Tenma being ignorant --> If I just back off now, all this will make me look stupid and it was worthless ---> So I should (BAH - Slap)
    You're mixing what she is saying with what she is thinking. You're confusing Yakumo's POV with the reader's POV.

    Her train of thought, in order:


    Then pre-slap:


    We the reader can see she is about to say something quite important, could be good, could be bad. To Yakumo (who doesn't know her thoughts at this moment) it seems she is about to keep going with the reprimands. Then Yakumo interrupts everything with the slap.


    Quote Originally Posted by YuYo View Post
    Did you even read the parts that I quoted or just the answers?Reading this post I see so many strange answers that have no relevance to my post what so ever
    I quoted what you said yourself actually. Ultraness said it was a foolish act, and you said you were glad she did it to show her devotion.


    And how does that change anything in my statement?I'm confused as to how you seem to claim that she should understand Eris situation based on something that neither of them remembers anymore?The fact that Eri and Harima are not dating still remains.She has not even told her feelings to Harima or anyone else for that matter.
    and the fact is that Tenma is in the same situation with Karasuma, you argued that Ultraness' analogy was irrelevant because Eri isn't in a relationship with Harima. Well the same could be said with Tenma and Karasuma, if you meant something else, then try to convey the right idea next time.


    I guess either I wrote it in a hard to understand way or you misunderstood it,so I'll try again.

    Ultraness and Swampstorm have made comments as to why Yakumo slapped her.Making claims that she acted out of jealosy and so forth without any base to these claims.And when ppl said that Yakumo acted out of anger for Eri talking down on Tenma.Ultra answered that there is no evidence to back their claim.
    So what does this have to do with Ultraness' quote you replied to?
    Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    It doesn’t matter if they remember that situation, either. What matters is if Tenma still gets mad with anyone interfering with her relationship with Karasuma, since that will determine whether or not she’s capable of empathizing with Eri.
    Swamp seems to be insanely mad at Yakumo right now though...

    Then later on he seems to make a claim that when Yakumo slapped Eri she was just about to say something "important" rather then just continuing to denounce Tenma.
    But since there is no evidence pointing either way he contradicts himself.
    1. See above

    2. If you missed it, see the images i posted above. All signs point towards Eri about to make a fateful decision on her own, whether it was going to be right or wrong. Then she is slapped, if that isn't an interruption i don't know what is.


    I have to again ask did you really read my post or someone elses?He said that if they weren't acting like kids there wouldn't be much of a story.And miraculously there has been guite a lot of fantastic storytelling going on without them being immature.
    I did, yes it wouldn't be as fun of a story, and thats why im here debating about it. They're adolescents, and unless you haven't been an adolescent yet you should be able to identify with them on many levels.

    Eri seemed to take the slap as a deserved one so I don't know will KJ even return to it again.To become an antagonist she would need a lot of char developement as it is now she wouldn't cause any kind od growth in Eris character.
    I posted what i think Eri's choices are in regards to the slap on Anime Suki.
    1.Pretend it never happened (reset?)
    2.Accept it and move on
    3.Revenge
    4.Talk about it face to face with Yakumo

 

 
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