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  1. #21
    vekou is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    i dunno but i think, eri and yakumo became antagonists at the same time.

    even though the two are against each other, it doesn't mean that one of them is the protagonist..

    - at first eri was very terrible towards tenma.. a bit harsh..
    - but now, yakumo slapped eri on the face without any explanation.. that's bad according to tenma

    eri's action might be due to her blind love to harima.. she never want to hurt anybody as much as possible, but she got jealous. another thing, she really is a kind girl but too much pride. she also can't react properly on awkward situations, she can't work well under pressure..

    yakumo's actions are due to her love to her sister (maybe the only reason?).. she really is very kind and very composed at all times. but i guess sometimes you've got to show who's boss? i'm not really sure what made her slap eri. could it be for her sister? or maybe because of harima? or would it be something else?

    either way, both of them have been unreasonable on certain grounds.. they may be right on their own way, but wrong for others. i guess it is true that, "people judge as based on our actions and not on our intentions."

    anyway, i still haven't read the chapter 212, i think it's almost time that the scanlation is released...

  2. #22
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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  3. #23
    _Vincent_ is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by vekou View Post
    i dunno but i think, eri and yakumo became antagonists at the same time.
    I completely agree with you. ^^
    both of them were wrong anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme
    On the Eri / Tenma maturity debate: I think it's pretty clear that both of them are being immature right now.
    quoted for truth.
    I also want to add something here. Tenma was too quick to apologise. Rather than apologising she should try harder in finding the root of the problem so that she can fix it.

  4. #24
    Mini Jesus is offline Senior Member Regular
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    It's out over at Mangaupdates.com...have fun with that.

  5. #25
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Wahoo! Its out! *runs away to read*

  6. #26
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    You know, you can have best wishes for some person but if you actually do something opposite, you can't tell if she wants to reconcile or not (and I had the feeling Eri didn't want to reconcile by saying "partially that was my fault").
    Yet we know she did want to, but again she seemed to be torn between what was most important to her. Her wanting to reconcile wasn't in question.


    Tenma actually has an idea why Eri is angry - she told that Mikoto and Yakumo. Indirectly, Tenma is sure she said something stupid and didn't even considered Eri feelings that time.
    No Tenma had no idea, she thought she did something wrong, but thats absolutely vague. She wasn't even within the ballpark when it came to knowing why Eri was irked.

    Actually, If Tenma won't say sorry, she will probably never get to know why Eri is angry (at least Eri doesn't seem to care to explain the reason, she was untill now kinda satisfied with the results). Tenma (unbelievable) knows that it won't be never resolved if she won't be the first one to move.
    BTW : Tenma tried to get to know the reason, but Eri is completely ignoring her and it's hard to approach her, while Mikoto wasn't much help here either. Having not much more choices (well, there is Akira which should know, but Tenma forgot about her and KJ didn't want for two of them to meet), she choices the hardest way, by showing how much she is sorry.
    Both are in the wrong in these situations, Tenma shouldn't have put herself in danger by staying out all night. Tenma shouldn't have just apologized. Eri shouldn't have taken it out on her, she shouldn't have given her the cold shoulder, and she shouldn't have said those things to her.



    Confirmed, although situation is different - at least Eri knew why Harima was angry and Harima had really good reason to be mad at her (..I actually felt that Harima in next chapter will try to shave her head, but Harima at least remembered that his "origin of wrath" is a girl).
    Either way Eri made up for it. Im confident she will do fine this time as well.


    I feel that Eri is jumping too fast to conclusion. Even if my view gets blurred by the knowledge of the reader but..come on, were talking about Tenma here From Eri point of view, what kind of dangerous creature Tenma can be ? After the date, Eri believes even more that Tenma isn't really any obstacle for her (..although we - the readers - knows that she is). As I said before, Eri is blaming Tenma for her lack of success with Harima lately. She needed a reason for it so she wouldn't feel like it was her who lacked something.
    Apparently, Eri knows just how dangerous she is. Seeing how she knows Harima gives her way more attention, and she went as far as to mimic her clumsiness.


    Oh, she is suffering alright - but she actually has a chance to stop to do it. Just some few words, she doesn't really needs to say that it was her fault or she was mad for no reason, at least she can say "It's ok" or something, Tenma will be happy as long as Eri won't be at her anymore. Eri has a good chance to reconcile, no - she wants to reconcile but she can't push herself to do it.
    It seems they have reconciled, words aren't the only way to express that.

    Anyway



    Awesome touching moments FTW, almost brought a tear to my eye.

  7. #27
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    You know, you can have best wishes for some person but if you actually do something opposite, you can't tell if she wants to reconcile or not (and I had the feeling Eri didn't want to reconcile by saying "partially that was my fault").
    When did Eri say that it was “partially her fault?” I got the feeling from Eri looking depressed about the situation, and now believing Tenma didn’t do anything wrong that she wants to reconcile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Again, I congratulate Tenma for being so stable after waiting whole day to apologize someone just to hear that, basically, stupid and insincere. Well, I think she actually deserved a little better explanation than that.
    I wouldn’t commend Tenma on being foolish enough to stay outside during a blizzard. In real life, she would have died if she did that.

    Also, Tenma didn’t know what she was going to hear from Eri, so that doesn’t affect her “decision” to wait a day to hear it. I would have been much more impressed with Tenma if she would have challenged Eri’s words to her instead of blindly taking them in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Yeah, your right - she still isn't adult so the form I used isn't really proper. About Lawrence Kohlberg, I didn't kn ew about him so I google to get some more information. Considering those level of moral reasoning.
    LEVEL STAGE SOCIAL ORIENTATION

    Pre-conventional 1 Obedience and Punishment

    2 Individualism, Instrumentalism,
    and Exchange


    Conventional 3 "Good boy/girl"

    4 Law and Order


    Post-conventional 5 Social Contract

    6 Principled Conscience

    In my opinion, if we're going to use that - Eri stopped and Law and Order level, (and considering Lowrence rule that you can't jump off to social contracts without acquiring the previous one..).
    Eri’s easily at level five, according to the requirements to qualify for it. Keep in mind that Kohlberg’s theory refers to moral reasoning, not to how people act; it’s the thinking that matters. The likely reason Eri feels bad about the situation with Tenma is because Eri believes that her behaviour is morally wrong, something Eri wouldn’t believe without significant moral development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Tenma actually has an idea why Eri is angry - she told that Mikoto and Yakumo. Indirectly, Tenma is sure she said something stupid and didn't even considered Eri feelings that time. Actually, If Tenma won't say sorry, she will probably never get to know why Eri is angry (at least Eri doesn't seem to care to explain the reason, she was untill now kinda satisfied with the results). Tenma (unbelievable) knows that it won't be never resolved if she won't be the first one to move.
    Tenma has no idea why Eri was angry. Re-read Chapter 209 when Yakumo asks Tenma why Eri is mad at her; Tenma clearly answers that she has no idea. All Tenma knows is that Eri is angry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    BTW : Tenma tried to get to know the reason, but Eri is completely ignoring her and it's hard to approach her, while Mikoto wasn't much help here either. Having not much more choices (well, there is Akira which should know, but Tenma forgot about her and KJ didn't want for two of them to meet), she choices the hardest way, by showing how much she is sorry.
    Tenma has Eri’s attention now, but she’s still concerned with just apologizing to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Confirmed, although situation is different - at least Eri knew why Harima was angry and Harima had really good reason to be mad at her (..I actually felt that Harima in next chapter will try to shave her head, but Harima at least remembered that his "origin of wrath" is a girl) .
    I know Eri knew why Harima was angry; that was the main reason I pointed out that example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    NOT AGAIN !! That was probably the least serious situation of all, I don't know if those girls even remember that. And again, the situation was completely clear (Eri did "make moves" on Karasuma for sake of playing with Tenma )
    The context of the situation doesn’t matter. Considering that Tenma got so mad at Eri for something that wasn’t serious at all, it should be even easier for her to understand Eri because the situation is more serious now.

    It doesn’t matter if they remember that situation, either. What matters is if Tenma still gets mad with anyone interfering with her relationship with Karasuma, since that will determine whether or not she’s capable of empathizing with Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Oh, she is suffering alright - but she actually has a chance to stop to do it. Just some few words, she doesn't really needs to say that it was her fault or she was mad for no reason, at least she can say "It's ok" or something, Tenma will be happy as long as Eri won't be at her anymore. Eri has a good chance to reconcile, no - she wants to reconcile but she can't push herself to do it.
    The fact that she knows that she should stop it but isn’t is the part of the reason she’s suffering. Guilt sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    While Yakumo..well, she should apologize but I don't see any changes between her relationship with Eri (and sorry guys, no bloody marry pairing is going to happen). Yakumo still will consider her as "nuisance" and Eri will consider her as "rival".
    But still, Eri is controling herself quite well - she got hit twice by Yakumo and she backed off twice too (although the first one was rather due to accident).
    I don’t think whether or not Eri and Yakumo become best friends is really an issue, and I agree that it’s doubtful they’ll become BFF. What I think is important at the moment is the relationship between Tenma and Yakumo, which could become strained now that things are better between Tenma and Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    Yes, you're right, it is greedy on the part of the reader to expect conflict to be cleared up in a single chapter, but I was looking at this as the climax of the last arc series of chapters - Eri's anger and Tenma's confusion.
    Actually, I called it impatience on the part of the readers. Eri stopped being angry a few chapters ago, and Tenma will likely always be confused, so, personally, I didn’t think much would happen after the slap other than Tenma getting mad at Yakumo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    The slap seemed to indicate that something explosive was going to happen in terms of revelation and reconciliation.
    I thought the slap ended something explosive, since Eri seemed to be on the verge of telling something important to Tenma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    Of course, I wasn't hoping or expecting things to be done and dusted by the end of #212, but I was hoping a dialogue would at least get started. At the moment Eri and Tenma are still circling each other, neither one knowing what the other is really thinking. Yes, it is suspenseful in a way - it takes the reader out of their comfort zone and makes them want resolution - but still. It's been a few chapters now (or does it just feel that way? ) and it feels like it's time to take the conflict to another level.
    The conflict will like start escalating soon. Keep in mind that authors usually ease off the tension for a while after conflict has been building up for a sustained period of time, to sort of give readers a small resolution to momentarily decrease anxiety. I think that’s what this chapter is, a sort of “rest” chapter before things start really heating up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    I do like the idea of Yakumo as antagonist. It really can only increase character development on all sides, even if it decreases onigiri likeliness. Not that I think onigiri is even remotely likely as it is. Doesn't stop me wishing it were.
    To be honest, I like Yakumo as an antagonist because it significantly increases the probability for Flag. While Tenma was Eri’s antagonist, everyone just started feeling sorry for Tenma and I started getting worried that Eri might become Tenma’s antagonist for an Oudou ending. No such anxiety when Yakumo is the “bad” person.

    I’m not sure you’d really like Yakumo as an antagonist. Authors usually don’t reveal antagonists’ reasons for their actions to give the illusion that they’re “evil” to avoid readers feeling sympathetic towards them, and often serve as the scapegoat. They tend to get shafted in the character development department.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    On the Eri / Tenma maturity debate: I think it's pretty clear that both of them are being immature right now. Tenma is being immature in that she is failing to recognise or investigate the root of the problem, and trying to solve it with nothing but an apology. This is the equivalent of putting a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. Even if Tenma's apology is heartfelt and sincere, it can only last so long before its effects will be destroyed by some other slip. Mind you, this is pretty much the heart of the manga. The constant source of conflict is Tenma's (and sometimes others') inability to pick up on the feelings of those around them.
    Naturally, they’re both acting immature; we wouldn’t have much of a story if they weren’t. I basically agree with your opinion of Tenma, since it sounds a lot like mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    On the other hand, Eri is also being immature, but in a much more complicated way. She is in command of far more of the facts than Tenma, and from a moral standpoint, knows how she should be acting. I get the impression that she even recognises that Tenma wasn't making a serious move on Harima. Tenma's amiable confusion kind of broadcasts that. The difference is that her central feelings are still conflicted. Her anger at Tenma had Harima as its indirect source, and she still isn't sure how she is feeling towards him. There's still that love/hate thing going on inside her, and that's affecting everything else she thinks and does. I think she'll need to work out her feelings towards Harima before she can effect a resolution with Tenma, while all the time Tenma remains blissfully ignorant of the real cause of the problem. Although... probably not actually *blissfully* ignorant. After all, she will still be suffering from Eri's coldness.
    I think it’s pretty clear that Eri knows what her feelings are for Harima, and I think Eri’s pride is the main reason for her problems reconciling with Tenma. Eri’s inner monologue in Chapter 211 sums up this idea nicely: “What am I supposed to do?! If I start going easy on her now after hearing everything I’ve done...will things go back to the way they’re supposed to be?! Do I back off?”

    Back in the fourth volume, Eri continues to run away from Suou even after she realizes that there’s no reason for her to be running because of her pride. Since Eri committed herself to being cold to Tenma back in Chapter 208, I think her pride is making it difficult for her to back down, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isenfolme View Post
    Yakumo - yeah. Still waiting for the fallout on that. I hope that KJ actually goes ahead and deals with it, rather than leaving it in the background. I can't wait for the raw - I want to see the expression on Yakumo's face post-slap. It's interesting that Eri seems to have accepted the slap as deserved, as I thought she would. That alone speaks for her maturity on most things aside from Hige-connected relationships.
    Yakumo had her dark expression on after the slap, which bodes poorly for her future role in the plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by vekou View Post
    i dunno but i think, eri and yakumo became antagonists at the same time.
    I disagree. I'm talking about protagonists and antagonists from a literature perspective where the protagonist is the focal character whom develops throughout the story, and antagonist is the one causing the character to develop. From this view, Eri is clearly the main protagonist, and Yakumo is being set up as the antagonist.

    Quote Originally Posted by vekou View Post
    even though the two are against each other, it doesn't mean that one of them is the protagonist..

    - at first eri was very terrible towards tenma.. a bit harsh..
    - but now, yakumo slapped eri on the face without any explanation.. that's bad according to tenma
    Who the protagonist is doesn’t necessarily depend on who’s good or not. It depends mainly on which character the plot focuses on. Also, making mistakes is an important part to being a protagonist; without doing so, protagonists are “perfect” and have no room to develop.

    Quote Originally Posted by vekou View Post
    eri's action might be due to her blind love to harima.. she never want to hurt anybody as much as possible, but she got jealous. another thing, she really is a kind girl but too much pride. she also can't react properly on awkward situations, she can't work well under pressure..
    Eri’s love for Harima isn’t blind. For an example of blind love, look at Harima’s feelings for Tenma.

    Quote Originally Posted by vekou View Post
    Yakumo's actions are due to her love to her sister (maybe the only reason?).. she really is very kind and very composed at all times. but i guess sometimes you've got to show who's boss? i'm not really sure what made her slap eri. could it be for her sister? or maybe because of harima? or would it be something else?
    It speaks very poorly for Yakumo’s character if she was composed while slapping Eri; that would make her quite the cold-blooded person, and I’m already feeling uneasy by how calm and remorseless she looks after slapping Eri.

    As for why Yakumo slapped Eri, Kobayashi hasn’t shed much light on Yakumo’s reasoning so you’re likely to believe whatever logic best suits your opinion of Yakumo. I don’t think there’s enough evidence to confirm why she slapped Eri at the moment.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  8. #28
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    Tenma has no idea why Eri was angry. Re-read Chapter 209 when Yakumo asks Tenma why Eri is mad at her; Tenma clearly answers that she has no idea. All Tenma knows is that Eri is angry.
    She said it - because I'm stupid She doesn't know what exactly she is amd about it, but Tenma believes it isn't something not important

    The context of the situation doesn’t matter. Considering that Tenma got so mad at Eri for something that wasn’t serious at all, it should be even easier for her to understand Eri because the situation is more serious now
    .
    It doesn’t matter if they remember that situation, either. What matters is if Tenma still gets mad with anyone interfering with her relationship with Karasuma, since that will determine whether or not she’s capable of empathizing with Eri.
    So mad you mean :
    - She was so mad she forgot about it after next chapter
    - She was that for the whole manga there wasn't any connection to it
    - She was so mad that she learnt that having a revenge is double-edged sword (both of them felt car-sick)
    - She was so mad that it was absolutely funny
    Eri was completely, openly and without any doubts teasing Tenma - both sides knew about it. Tenma revenge was a whim and on kid level, but it wasn't really so deep - absolutely nothing similar to situation now. It was like throwing a snowball back into someone, because he threw one first.

    About Eri suffering in Ajax picture - she knew it was going to happen when she started to talk like that to Tenma, so I can't sympathize with her - she should have been prepared for consequences of her action, she clearly knew what was she doing.
    Considerably, Yakumo did help a lot in reconcile between Eri and Tenma.
    [/QUOTE]

  9. #29
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    About Eri suffering in Ajax picture - she knew it was going to happen when she started to talk like that to Tenma, so I can't sympathize with her - she should have been prepared for consequences of her action, she clearly knew what was she doing.
    I can't agree at all, otherwise she wouldn't be suffering quite as much. She obviously didn't have the amazing foresight that you seem to think she had.

    Considerably, Yakumo did help a lot in reconcile between Eri and Tenma.
    In the wrong way.

  10. #30
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    She said it - because I'm stupid She doesn't know what exactly she is amd about it, but Tenma believes it isn't something not important
    This is my problem with Tenma in the situation; she doesn’t believe it’s important to know what made Eri mad, and is simply concerned with apologizing to her. If Tenma doesn’t find out what she was doing to make Eri mad, she’ll just continue to make the same mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    So mad you mean :
    - She was so mad she forgot about it after next chapter
    - She was that for the whole manga there wasn't any connection to it
    - She was so mad that she learnt that having a revenge is double-edged sword (both of them felt car-sick)
    - She was so mad that it was absolutely funny
    By mad, I mean that Tenma was unhappy and tried to jinx her friend. Again, the importance of the scene doesn’t matter in this discussion; only how Tenma feels if anyone interferes with her relationship with Karasuma. Remember, we’re discussing whether or not it’s possible for Tenma to empathize with Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Eri was completely, openly and without any doubts teasing Tenma - both sides knew about it. Tenma revenge was a whim and on kid level, but it wasn't really so deep - absolutely nothing similar to situation now. It was like throwing a snowball back into someone, because he threw one first.
    Nothing in the chapter indicates Tenma knew that Eri was just teasing her. I agree there isn’t anything particularly deep about the scene; I’m only bringing it up to say that it’s possible for Tenma to empathize with Eri.

    I wouldn’t say there’s nothing similar between the two situations, though. First situation, Eri gets in between Tenma and Karasuma and Tenma gets upset. Second situation, Tenma gets in between Eri and Harima and Eri gets upset. The only thing differentiating the scenarios is the drama surrounding them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    About Eri suffering in Ajax picture - she knew it was going to happen when she started to talk like that to Tenma, so I can't sympathize with her - she should have been prepared for consequences of her action, she clearly knew what was she doing.
    What part of the manga suggests that Eri knew she was going to get hurt? I don’t remember anything that suggests this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    Considerably, Yakumo did help a lot in reconcile between Eri and Tenma.
    How so? I thought it was Tenma proving herself to Eri by spending a night in a blizzard that enabled the two reconcile.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 
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