Thread: Chapter 212 discussion (*there is spoilers there*)

Originally Posted by Kolox

I'm not saying Yakumo action were good and I never said that before, but I won't back off when I said that Eri is acting like brat. Being and adult,no - being mature is being responsible for your actions. In world we have lot's of "kidults" - adults who acts like kids - and because there is lots of them, it's not an excuse to act like them.

Eri has consistently shown herself to realize that what she’s done is wrong, and do what’s necessary to correct it whenever she’s made a mistake. To attack her in the midst of one her dark moments is hardly fair, which you should know considering your method of defending Yakumo when I said she acted like a child.

By the way, Eri is an adolescent, not a "kidult." By definition, an adolescent is "a young person who has undergone puberty but who has not reached full maturity." To expect Eri to be fully mature is a bit much while she's still in the process of maturation. I have no idea where this notion of "kidults" came from; Lawrence Kohlberg would be ashamed.

Originally Posted by Kolox

From all the group, how much unexpected it seems, Tenma acts most mature. She knows of her own clumsinesses and being too fast in saying something which might hurt someone - feeling that is the case, she admitted she was wrong and she wants to apologize

Tenma’s method of reconciliation is very immature. She believes that simply saying sorry will make things all right between the two. If Tenma was actually mature, she’d realize that she needs to learn what made Eri mad before blindly attributing the blame entirely to herself so that she could correct herself from making future mistakes or correct any misunderstandings if they exist. Admitting you’re wrong while having no clue how you were wrong, or if you even were wrong, is childish.

For an example of a mature act, re-read the Sports Festival arc. Eri realizes she went too far by shaving Harima's head, so she acts responsible by making sure that Harima isn't publicly humiliated at her own expense.

Originally Posted by Kolox

(it's impossible for Tenma to get Eri's real reason of her anger, since - in my opinion - she didn't do anything wrong, it's just Eri who is jealous and insincere).

Tenma has gotten mad for the exact same reason Eri was mad, so she's very capable of empathizing with Eri's plight. Way back in the first volume, Tenma got mad at Eri when she believed that Eri was making moves on Karasuma, and now Eri thinks, or thought, that Tenma was “betraying” her by pursuing Harima.

Of course, in your opinion, Tenma didn’t do anything wrong since you, as a reader, know that Tenma did not do anything wrong. Eri, though, falsely believes that Tenma was going after Harima, which is why she was mad at her. You have to draw the line between character and reader perception. It’s situations like these that it’s necessary to empathize with the characters.

Originally Posted by Kolox

As for Yakumo, she will if she is not already suffer consequences of what she did, so I'm just leaving her alone (..Eri and Yakumo can sometimes be really similar)

Ah, but Eri has already suffered for her actions. Why don't you leave her alone, then? I made a long post, but you only picked out one section to launch off an attack against Eri, and you're still continuing to just rant on about how she’s such a spoiled brat.

Oh goshh, come on. Don't start arguing about who is right or wrong between Eri and Tenma. We already undergo that hardship over a month i think. Let's keep up with the story then . I mean it already like a stale mate.

Good chapter, although need to see the scanlation. It seems it won't become "Welding machine VS Chainsaw" . Yakumo's fate are not known yet, so maybe we don't suppose to "condemn" her that Tenma will punish her. Nothing better than a friendship fix ( although momentarily ? ) .

PS : Kolox = U have my support, Go Go Go < If we are going to debate over it again >

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Oh goshh, come on. Don't start arguing about who is right or wrong between Eri and Tenma. We already undergo that hardship over a month i think. Let's keep up with the story then . I mean it already like a stale mate.

This isn't an argument over who is right or wrong between Eri and Tenma...unless Kolox decides to turn it into one. So far, it's been about the maturity, or immaturity, of Tenma and Eri.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

Good chapter, although need to see the scanlation. It seems it won't become "Welding machine VS Chainsaw" . Yakumo's fate are not known yet, so maybe we don't suppose to "condemn" her that Tenma will punish her. Nothing better than a friendship fix ( although momentarily ? ) .

Yakumo fans should hope that she gets "punished" somehow, lest she becomes a "villainous" antagonist or plot device to simply advance other factions. If her actions keep on going unaccounted for, that's what fate will have in store for Yakumo.

Originally Posted by liekiamhiung

PS : Kolox = U have my support, Go Go Go < If we are going to debate over it again >

The best way to support Kolox would be to use your brain and take a stab at my ideas, if they're worth opposing, instead of being his cheerleader.

*becomes a cheerleader*

And I agree with Kolox too - YES, I did read the opinion. A little. ^^;;

way for KJ to not escalate the conflict and pull off a semi-filler, what about yamo ):

Ah, almost time for Townsocks to do his thang.

mmm how many more hours?

he needs the raw first...I haven't seen that on Tokyo Toshokan yet....I can't wait to read it.

Originally Posted by ultraness

Eri has consistently shown herself to realize that what she’s done is wrong, and do what’s necessary to correct it whenever she’s made a mistake. To attack her in the midst of one her dark moments is hardly fair, which you should know considering your method of defending Yakumo when I said she acted like a child.

You know, you can have best wishes for some person but if you actually do something opposite, you can't tell if she wants to reconcile or not (and I had the feeling Eri didn't want to reconcile by saying "partially that was my fault").
Again, I congratulate Tenma for being so stable after waiting whole day to apologize someone just to hear that, basically, stupid and insincere. Well, I think she actually deserved a little better explanation than that.

By the way, Eri is an adolescent, not a "kidult." By definition, an adolescent is "a young person who has undergone puberty but who has not reached full maturity." To expect Eri to be fully mature is a bit much while she's still in the process of maturation. I have no idea where this notion of "kidults" came from; Lawrence Kohlberg would be ashamed.

Yeah, your right - she still isn't adult so the form I used isn't really proper. About Lawrence Kohlberg, I didn't kn ew about him so I google to get some more information. Considering those level of moral reasoning.
LEVEL STAGE SOCIAL ORIENTATION

Pre-conventional 1 Obedience and Punishment

2 Individualism, Instrumentalism,
and Exchange


Conventional 3 "Good boy/girl"

4 Law and Order


Post-conventional 5 Social Contract

6 Principled Conscience

In my opinion, if we're going to use that - Eri stopped and Law and Order level, (and considering Lowrence rule that you can't jump off to social contracts without acquiring the previous one..).

Tenma’s method of reconciliation is very immature. She believes that simply saying sorry will make things all right between the two. If Tenma was actually mature, she’d realize that she needs to learn what made Eri mad before blindly attributing the blame entirely to herself so that she could correct herself from making future mistakes or correct any misunderstandings if they exist. Admitting you’re wrong while having no clue how you were wrong, or if you even were wrong, is childish.

Tenma actually has an idea why Eri is angry - she told that Mikoto and Yakumo. Indirectly, Tenma is sure she said something stupid and didn't even considered Eri feelings that time. Actually, If Tenma won't say sorry, she will probably never get to know why Eri is angry (at least Eri doesn't seem to care to explain the reason, she was untill now kinda satisfied with the results). Tenma (unbelievable) knows that it won't be never resolved if she won't be the first one to move.

BTW : Tenma tried to get to know the reason, but Eri is completely ignoring her and it's hard to approach her, while Mikoto wasn't much help here either. Having not much more choices (well, there is Akira which should know, but Tenma forgot about her and KJ didn't want for two of them to meet), she choices the hardest way, by showing how much she is sorry.

For an example of a mature act, re-read the Sports Festival arc. Eri realizes she went too far by shaving Harima's head, so she acts responsible by making sure that Harima isn't publicly humiliated at her own expense.

Confirmed, although situation is different - at least Eri knew why Harima was angry and Harima had really good reason to be mad at her (..I actually felt that Harima in next chapter will try to shave her head, but Harima at least remembered that his "origin of wrath" is a girl) .

Tenma has gotten mad for the exact same reason Eri was mad, so she's very capable of empathizing with Eri's plight. Way back in the first volume, Tenma got mad at Eri when she believed that Eri was making moves on Karasuma, and now Eri thinks, or thought, that Tenma was “betraying” her by pursuing Harima.

NOT AGAIN !! That was probably the least serious situation of all, I don't know if those girls even remember that. And again, the situation was completely clear (Eri did "make moves" on Karasuma for sake of playing with Tenma )

Of course, in your opinion, Tenma didn’t do anything wrong since you, as a reader, know that Tenma did not do anything wrong. Eri, though, falsely believes that Tenma was going after Harima, which is why she was mad at her. You have to draw the line between character and reader perception. It’s situations like these that it’s necessary to empathize with the characters.

I feel that Eri is jumping too fast to conclusion. Even if my view gets blurred by the knowledge of the reader but..come on, were talking about Tenma here From Eri point of view, what kind of dangerous creature Tenma can be ? After the date, Eri believes even more that Tenma isn't really any obstacle for her (..although we - the readers - knows that she is). As I said before, Eri is blaming Tenma for her lack of success with Harima lately. She needed a reason for it so she wouldn't feel like it was her who lacked something.

Ah, but Eri has already suffered for her actions. Why don't you leave her alone, then? I made a long post, but you only picked out one section to launch off an attack against Eri, and you're still continuing to just rant on about how she’s such a spoiled brat.

Oh, she is suffering alright - but she actually has a chance to stop to do it. Just some few words, she doesn't really needs to say that it was her fault or she was mad for no reason, at least she can say "It's ok" or something, Tenma will be happy as long as Eri won't be at her anymore. Eri has a good chance to reconcile, no - she wants to reconcile but she can't push herself to do it.

While Yakumo..well, she should apologize but I don't see any changes between her relationship with Eri (and sorry guys, no bloody marry pairing is going to happen). Yakumo still will consider her as "nuisance" and Eri will consider her as "rival".
But still, Eri is controling herself quite well - she got hit twice by Yakumo and she backed off twice too (although the first one was rather due to accident).

Ultra - Thanks for the link. That certainly makes things a lot clearer!

Yes, you're right, it is greedy on the part of the reader to expect conflict to be cleared up in a single chapter, but I was looking at this as the climax of the last arc series of chapters - Eri's anger and Tenma's confusion. The slap seemed to indicate that something explosive was going to happen in terms of revelation and reconciliation. Of course, I wasn't hoping or expecting things to be done and dusted by the end of #212, but I was hoping a dialogue would at least get started. At the moment Eri and Tenma are still circling each other, neither one knowing what the other is really thinking. Yes, it is suspenseful in a way - it takes the reader out of their comfort zone and makes them want resolution - but still. It's been a few chapters now (or does it just feel that way? ) and it feels like it's time to take the conflict to another level.

I do like the idea of Yakumo as antagonist. It really can only increase character development on all sides, even if it decreases onigiri likeliness. Not that I think onigiri is even remotely likely as it is. Doesn't stop me wishing it were.

On the Eri / Tenma maturity debate: I think it's pretty clear that both of them are being immature right now. Tenma is being immature in that she is failing to recognise or investigate the root of the problem, and trying to solve it with nothing but an apology. This is the equivalent of putting a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. Even if Tenma's apology is heartfelt and sincere, it can only last so long before its effects will be destroyed by some other slip. Mind you, this is pretty much the heart of the manga. The constant source of conflict is Tenma's (and sometimes others') inability to pick up on the feelings of those around them.

On the other hand, Eri is also being immature, but in a much more complicated way. She is in command of far more of the facts than Tenma, and from a moral standpoint, knows how she should be acting. I get the impression that she even recognises that Tenma wasn't making a serious move on Harima. Tenma's amiable confusion kind of broadcasts that. The difference is that her central feelings are still conflicted. Her anger at Tenma had Harima as its indirect source, and she still isn't sure how she is feeling towards him. There's still that love/hate thing going on inside her, and that's affecting everything else she thinks and does. I think she'll need to work out her feelings towards Harima before she can effect a resolution with Tenma, while all the time Tenma remains blissfully ignorant of the real cause of the problem. Although... probably not actually *blissfully* ignorant. After all, she will still be suffering from Eri's coldness.

Yakumo - yeah. Still waiting for the fallout on that. I hope that KJ actually goes ahead and deals with it, rather than leaving it in the background. I can't wait for the raw - I want to see the expression on Yakumo's face post-slap. It's interesting that Eri seems to have accepted the slap as deserved, as I thought she would. That alone speaks for her maturity on most things aside from Hige-connected relationships.

Y'know, all this is so good and involving because KJ is so good at working out character. Yay for character based drama.