Chapter 212 discussion (*there is spoilers there*)

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

zeal:

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You've never faced this sort of crisis before, with Yakumo. In the early days of the series, we all agreed that "Yakumo is a good girl." We didn't bother to delve any deeper - there were no hidden meanings behind her actions. She was mysterious (which is another way of saying that we didn't know anything about her), but we were content to keep things that way. There was nothing about her character to defend - the words "Yakumo is a good girl" were enough to make her likable.

We've reached a point in time when "Yakumo is a good girl" is no longer a sufficient, or even an accurate appraisal of her character. If that's the only thing that we've known about Yakumo so far, to lose that is to lose the essence of her character. From here, she has to either grow into a full fledged character with both virtues and vices, or she remain as she is, a mere echo of the words "Yakumo is a good girl."

You can't dodge the question much longer, I fear. Just who really is Tsukamoto Yakumo? If you can find the answer, you'll have nothing to worry about - no matter what she does, you'll be able to be secure in the belief that in the end, she'll always do the right thing.

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I have been following this discussion for awhile and i have to say Yakumo's character has been misconstrued and off the mark. Yakumo's character has been consistant and the slap isnt something out of character for her. She is shy, introverted person, but she will protect those people she loves. Yakumo doesnt have to redeem herself, and i dont see anything of the sort happening. Both Eri and her will probably act as if it didnt happen.

In truth, the slap incident occured through Eri's own fault. Eri, for the lack of a better word, belittled Tenma, what was Yakumo suppose to do? Tell her to stop, no. Eri's character wouldnt have listened, the only people who have that kind of power over Eri are Harima and Akira, and maybe miko-chan. Eri is a feisty girl, thats what i love about her, but feisty girls dont listen. And dont put feisty girls on a pedalstool. I'm sorry, yakumo did what she had to do, she protected her sister. I'm not saying she is a 'good girl," but we know who she is as a full fledged character.

i'm not condoning violence, it can be a childish act, there are times when you have to use it to protect someone. I'm not showing bias, cause well i'm a Flag supporter, and Eri deserved it. It allowed her to put what she thinks and what she says in a consistant manner. We know Eri is a caring person, but it is not our thoughts but our actions that define us a person. Eri's actions were off with how she felt when first confronting tenma and after the slap she regained perspective again. Which gave us chapter 212.

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Originally Posted by ggonzo5

I have been following this discussion for awhile and i have to say Yakumo's character has been misconstrued and off the mark. Yakumo's character has been consistant and the slap isnt something out of character for her. She is shy, introverted person, but she will protect those people she loves. Yakumo doesnt have to redeem herself, and i dont see anything of the sort happening. Both Eri and her will probably act as if it didnt happen.

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I don't think that anyone doubts that Yakumo is being out of character. We've heard that story before - "Yakumo is a good girl" - so her actions were therefore always made with some higher purpose in mind. The only problem is, though, that she completely ignored Tenma's wishes in the process. Tenma stood out in the cold all night to resolve things with Eri. She even told Yakumo that Eri was a very special friend to her, and that resolving things with Eri was important to her. Yakumo interfered with her sister's wishes with that with the slap, and she didn't allow Tenma to stay.

It's not just that, though. Ch.206 has Yakumo deciding who Tenma should be with. We know that it's in character for Yakumo to be protective of Tenma, but we're starting to see a new, darker side to the relationship - Yakumo isn't just protective, she's overprotective. It's precisely this new development that everyone is hotly debating.

If you look around, there's even a thread called "Yakumo's sudden change or WTF is going on?!" on these forums, located here: http://www.stoptazmo.com/showthread.php?t=19638.

Now, you can go one of two routes. You can insist that "Yakumo is a good girl," and completely ignore exploring this new development further, or you can look more closely and try to learn new things about her personality. The choice is yours.

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Originally Posted by ggonzo5

In truth, the slap incident occured through Eri's own fault. Eri, for the lack of a better word, belittled Tenma, what was Yakumo suppose to do? Tell her to stop, no. Eri's character wouldnt have listened, the only people who have that kind of power over Eri are Harima and Akira, and maybe miko-chan. Eri is a feisty girl, thats what i love about her, but feisty girls dont listen. And dont put feisty girls on a pedalstool. I'm sorry, yakumo did what she had to do, she protected her sister. I'm not saying she is a 'good girl," but we know who she is as a full fledged character.

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Well, part of caring for other people involves putting their needs before your own. Tenma couldn't possibly have made it more clear to Yakumo that Eri was important to her. This is a friendship that she stayed all night in the snow for. She even directly told Yakumo that Eri was very important to her. Now if Tenma was in the forefront of Yakumo's mind, this idea would be too. The very first thing that she would have done is to work towards a constructive solution to repair the friendship. When I say that Yakumo indulged herself by slapping Eri, I mean that her actions were meant to satisfy her own rage, rather than to protect Tenma. You can thank your stars that Eri carried herself in a far more mature fashion than Yakumo did. If she had stooped to Yakumo's level, all of Tenma's hard work would have been undone.

Did you ever think of what Tenma would have gone through had Eri gotten angry with the two sisters after the slap? Yakumo doesn't know Eri all that well - she had no idea how Eri would respond to that slap, and what impact it would have on Tenma's situation with Eri. The fact that Yakumo didn't bother to consider the impact that she could potentially have had on Tenma's relationship with Eri means that she's placed her own desires above Tenma's - which is well in line with the overprotective behavior that she has shown as of late. Yakumo not only wants to pick Tenma's boyfriend, but she wants to pick Tenma's friends, too.

Is Yakumo still a good girl?

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Originally Posted by ggonzo5

i'm not condoning violence, it can be a childish act, there are times when you have to use it to protect someone.

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Oh? Was Eri attacking Tenma physically, for Yakumo to step in and attack? When you try to justify violence to protect yourself or others from physical harm, then that reasoning may be used. When you go out and beat up someone just because you don't like their ideas, then you have no moral justification - you're not protecting, you're attacking.

"It was self-defense! I didn't like what he said, so I hit him!" That'll stand up really well.

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Originally Posted by ggonzo5

I'm not showing bias, cause well i'm a Flag supporter, and Eri deserved it.

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Who you are has no effect on the validity of your words. Prove your points by logic and logic alone.
Whether or not Eri deserved the slap is irrelevant, though. The question is not whether Eri deserved the slap from the omniscient perspective of the reader, but rather if Yakumo was justified in attacking her when the situation was non-violent to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ggonzo5

It allowed her to put what she thinks and what she says in a consistant manner. We know Eri is a caring person, but it is not our thoughts but our actions that define us a person. Eri's actions were off with how she felt when first confronting tenma and after the slap she regained perspective again. Which gave us chapter 212.

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The problem is that she already had perspective, before the slap. The slap itself did nothing except, in the eyes of the viewers, balance out Tenma's night in the cold. It didn't change Eri's perspective at all - she was condemning herself in Ch.211 itself (although she really had no reason to blame herself for Tenma's decision to stay in the snow - but Eri always tends to worry too much about satisfying the people around her - the only person with the power to make Tenma smile is Tenma herself, and no actions made by anyone else can take that smile away).

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

zeal:
1. fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor.

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I hope you don't mind being described as zealous, but I think it's a good word to use considering the monstrous posts you make everywhere whenever you disagree with someone’s opinion of Eri.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I agree that it's always a good idea to avoid hurting people's feelings wherever possible. However, in certain cases, a simple substitution of words such as "hero <-> protagonist" and "villain <-> antagonist" can be misleading.

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I switched from the word "villain" to "antagonist" since I got tired of people getting emotional about the word "villain." It was frustrating having people simply going "Yakumo's not a villain!" instead of arguing with my reasoning for Yakumo possibly becoming one, simply stating that “Yakumo is a good girl/protective sister” like you comment on later in your post.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The protagonist-antagonist relationship is a relationship between two foils. That particular connection (one between two foils) between Eri and Yakumo does not hold true, as of last chapter.

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I thought that the purpose of foils was to contrast certain traits of a protagonist by either being opposite or very similar to the protagonist, such as Laertes and Fortinbras from Hamlet, and making different decisions. Haven’t they remained foils after Chapters 174, 211 and 212 by going through parallel situations with Tenma, creating similarities between the two, but having different responses to basically the same situation, contrasting the two?

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

To Eri, Yakumo represented something that Eri was required to become, to be accepted by those around her. Ch.87 p.4 and 5 express those sentiments very well. Despite trying her best, after hours of effort and with her hands covered in injuries, Eri finds herself easily outdone by Yakumo - and she walks away, feeling depressed.

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Thanks for pointing this out; I missed this. I thought the bandages were just added in for the anime, but there is one frame in the manga showing Eri with a band-aid over her thumb.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

You can't dodge the question much longer, I fear. Just who really is Tsukamoto Yakumo?

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Who knows? This is the exact problem I had with Ayanami Rei. There comes a point when I get tired of nothing being revealed about a character.

*pokes head over walls of text* Boy i love reading these.

Hmm Ch.87... ah yes, she looks great in this frame.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...eo/EriCh87.png

You bring a good point as well, it seems Eri seems to have or have had some sort of inferiority complex. It doesn't seem as prominent recently, especially since the night she spent with Harima at the temple. Harima really opened up that night, even he was surprised lol

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Originally Posted by ultraness

I hope you don't mind being described as zealous, but I think it's a good word to use considering the monstrous posts you make everywhere whenever you disagree with someone’s opinion of Eri.

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I rather like it, to tell you the truth. Ideas like ardor and passion are appealing to me, and they also happen to be qualities that I find admirable in Eri.

Actually, the only reason why I brought it up was to tease pizza_blade. He's an excellent source of amusement - I just wish that he would show up more often. :D

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Originally Posted by ultraness

I switched from the word "villain" to "antagonist" since I got tired of people getting emotional about the word "villain." It was frustrating having people simply going "Yakumo's not a villain!" instead of arguing with my reasoning for Yakumo possibly becoming one, simply stating that “Yakumo is a good girl/protective sister” like you comment on later in your post.

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Well, part of the problem as well is that when a series doesn't come out and openly hit you from the start with an obvious protagonist/antagonist, people seem to assume that the assignment of those roles is a bit of an epeen contest - "I like character X so character X is the protagonist, and I dislike character Y so character Y is the antagonist."

It becomes somewhat hard to explain that these are clearly defined roles based on a set of established criteria, and have nothing to do with personal preference.

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Originally Posted by ultraness

I thought that the purpose of foils was to contrast certain traits of a protagonist by either being opposite or very similar to the protagonist, such as Laertes and Fortinbras from Hamlet, and making different decisions. Haven’t they remained foils after Chapters 174, 211 and 212 by going through parallel situations with Tenma, creating similarities between the two, but having different responses to basically the same situation, contrasting the two?

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I think that I may have been foiled. :p

You're right from a technical standpoint, since I've only considered the one type of contrast. There still is a point here, although I need to reword it somewhat.

While foils create contrast, that contrast exists for a purpose. Up until now, the contrast has been for the purposes of developing Eri's character. Such an approach is neutral in nature, since it doesn't place the attitudes and perspectives of the characters concerned at odds against each other - it's used only to make the one character grow. From that standpoint, Yakumo is not in a good condition to further contribute to Eri's growth.

The contrast that you are suggesting is a different type of contrast - it pits Yakumo's approach against Eri's approach - duty against love. If this idea holds, then perhaps the purpose of the contrast would be to demonstrate a "right" view and a "wrong" view, from the author's standpoint. That slap does come with a considerable amount of irony.

If you can come up with some other instances where this sort of contrast takes place, either in the events that have happened or in later chapters as they come, perhaps we can discuss this idea further. I'll have to think about this one for a bit. Feel free to develop it further in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by -Ajax-

You bring a good point as well, it seems Eri seems to have or have had some sort of inferiority complex. It doesn't seem as prominent recently, especially since the night she spent with Harima at the temple. Harima really opened up that night, even he was surprised lol

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Harima really had a big impact on Eri in that chapter. It makes sense, too, now that I think about it - Eri's feelings of inferiority started because she drew her self-worth from pleasing others and keeping them happy - and Yakumo represented the ideal of that.

In the Omiai arc, the main point that Harima teaches Eri is to follow her dreams - by giving her that inspiring speech that no matter what happens, he'll keep fighting to make his dreams come true. When she confronts her mother, she nearly caves in - but those words give her the strength to make her true feelings known. With the resolution of that arc, Eri no longer has any need to attain the ideal of compliance that Yakumo represents - she's found something even higher to strive for: 愛 (love), just like the first syllable of her own name.

I like it.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Actually, the only reason why I brought it up was to tease pizza_blade. He's an excellent source of amusement - I just wish that he would show up more often. :D

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Indeed.

Pizza_blade pops up randomly, but he seems to show up more often whenever someone talks about him, or replies directly to his posts.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Well, part of the problem as well is that when a series doesn't come out and openly hit you from the start with an obvious protagonist/antagonist, people seem to assume that the assignment of those roles is a bit of an epeen contest - "I like character X so character X is the protagonist, and I dislike character Y so character Y is the antagonist."

It becomes somewhat hard to explain that these are clearly defined roles based on a set of established criteria, and have nothing to do with personal preference.

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Part of the problem in my case is that I've frequently stated that Flag is my favorite faction, so people here are likely to assume that I’m just attacking Yakumo’s character in order to justify Flag.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I think that I may have been foiled. :p

You're right from a technical standpoint, since I've only considered the one type of contrast. There still is a point here, although I need to reword it somewhat.

While foils create contrast, that contrast exists for a purpose. Up until now, the contrast has been for the purposes of developing Eri's character. Such an approach is neutral in nature, since it doesn't place the attitudes and perspectives of the characters concerned at odds against each other - it's used only to make the one character grow. From that standpoint, Yakumo is not in a good condition to further contribute to Eri's growth.

The contrast that you are suggesting is a different type of contrast - it pits Yakumo's approach against Eri's approach - duty against love. If this idea holds, then perhaps the purpose of the contrast would be to demonstrate a "right" view and a "wrong" view, from the author's standpoint. That slap does come with a considerable amount of irony.

If you can come up with some other instances where this sort of contrast takes place, either in the events that have happened or in later chapters as they come, perhaps we can discuss this idea further. I'll have to think about this one for a bit. Feel free to develop it further in the meantime.

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I haven’t noticed this sort of contrast happening between Eri and Yakumo directly outside of the one example, but I find it’s common among the other characters. Specifically, Eri, Harima, and Tenma all foil each other due to all of them having an unrequited love, and Kobayashi frequently sets up parallel situations for them. I think this is best exemplified by Chapter 183 where all three are trying to get alone with their respective interest.

I like the idea of the purpose of the contrast between Eri and Yakumo becoming reversed, though, with Yakumo being the one imagining a feud instead of the other way around. There’d be a sense of irony in that scenario I think I’d enjoy.

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Originally Posted by -Ajax-

Hmm Ch.87... ah yes, she looks great in this frame.

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I don’t think she looks nearly as great as she does in later chapters, like the picture of Eri you have in your signature. Kobayashi seems to outdo himself every chapter he draws her character.

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I don’t think she looks nearly as great as she does in later chapters, like the picture of Eri you have in your signature. Kobayashi seems to outdo himself every chapter he draws her character.

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Yes, but the old images of her still have a lot of charm. Yet in manga usually the art gets better as a long series progresses. The image of Eri in my sig made my jaw drop at first sight of it, and thats no exaggeration. ;)

I wonder how they will portray this heart stopping smile in the anime...oh god.

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Originally Posted by -Ajax-

I wonder how they will portray this heart stopping smile in the anime...oh god.

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They're not going to have it in the anime since they're going to go overbudget trying to do it justice.

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Originally Posted by ultraness

They're not going to have it in the anime since they're going to go overbudget trying to do it justice.

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lol nice come back, honestly i would be surprised if they would pull it off as well, and if they do...god save my eyes

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It’s a possibility, not a probability. Learn the definitions of the words, so you can use the proper diction.
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I love comments like this. Reminds me that there's a lot of smarter people then me out there in the Internet. I am humbled.

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Aah... Swampstorm. How do you... *CRUSHED UNDER WALL OF TEXTS*

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Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch...

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Actually, the only reason why I brought it up was to tease pizza_blade. He's an excellent source of amusement - I just wish that he would show up more often.
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I am glad that I have the ability to amuse people. Really, I do. I really like being called an excellent source of amusement.

How..., very appropriate, for you to make a comment like that.


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Indeed.

Pizza_blade pops up randomly, but he seems to show up more often whenever someone talks about him, or replies directly to his posts.
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Nah. I don't have any connection to the Internet in my own house, so the only times I actually bother to post replies to a topic were when I visit an Internet Cafe of some sort.

And that's also when I felt that I want to..., amuse people.

...

Cheers.