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  1. #21
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    I mean, it's not as much about who Tenma wants now as much as who Tenma would be happiest with if she married... or something like that. After all, Yakumo has very good judgement. ^___^
    ~Digital_Eon~




  2. #22
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Yakumo is even more inexperienced in romance then Tenma, actually.
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 01-23-2007 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #23
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    That doesn't matter - she can judge who'd be a better match for Tenma as a partner, right?
    ~Digital_Eon~




  4. #24
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    How if she has no experience in such matters?



    EDIT: Again about chapters 158-159: Yakumo told Tenma to read manga. Then she is saying sth like: "Nee-san, about that..." and near a note: "Harima-san...deffinintely.." I'm sure that it mean that Yakumo wants Tenma to know about Harima's feelings, which means that she supports Odou here. Which automatically means that I'm a blind idiot with amnesia.

  5. #25
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Nice topic, Reinard-fox.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    It was only a small nudge. If Tenma falls for Harima and forgets about Karasuma, she isn't going to be complaining. Yakumo's matchmaking is totally benevolent, and will continue to be as long as Yakumo doesn't try to sabotage Tenma and Karasuma.
    You’re right that it’s just a small nudge; that’s why I never seriously brought this debate up back in Chapter 206 when I figured Yakumo was placing Harima above her sister. Yakumo hasn’t done anything serious, yet, and been I’ve waiting to see whether she backs off or becomes more forceful.

    Yakumo's matchmaking is not benevolent right now specifically because Tenma does not like Harima. Tenma won’t be complaining if she ends up falling for Harima, but Tenma hasn’t shown any indication that she likes him romantically, yet. Until Tenma does so, Yakumo’s actions will be going against Tenma’s wishes and will not be in Tenma’s interests, regardless of Yakumo’s intent.

    You highlight here what I believe is Yakumo’s reasoning for her actions right now: that what she’s doing is not wrong because it will turn all right in the end, so she’s acting for Tenma’s sake . The end doesn’t necessarily justify the means, though, and Yakumo’s small nudge for Odou has already had a consequence I don’t think Yakumo anticipated: Tenma’s unhappiness.

    Nudging Tenma towards Harima has already caused Tenma to be unhappy since it caused strife between Tenma and Eri. So far, Yakumo’s prodding has caused Tenma to suffer indirectly, despite whatever Yakumo’s intentions are. I think this is foreshadowing more sadness for Tenma if Yakumo’s attempts at playing matchmaker continue, as I believe Yakumo was given a warning from Iori in Chapter 206.

    In Chapter 206, after Yakumo reveals her decision to support Odou by pairing the Tenma and Harima dolls, Iori suddenly appears and smacks off Harima’s head, suggesting that Tenma shouldn’t be with Harima, and Tenma stepping on Harima’s head symbolizes Tenma rejecting Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Compare this to everyone under the sun trying to push Harima and Eri together, even though neither of them appreciates the help and Harima definitely does not want to be with Eri at all.
    The issue here is Yakumo, not everyone else under the sun. Just because others do “wrong” doesn’t justify it for Yakumo to do the same. I don’t like Yakumo pushing Harima onto Tenma, and I don’t like the other characters trying to force Eri and Harima to go out, either.

    If Flag does happen, I want it to happen because Harima comes to love Eri on his own, not because others made him to do it; for example, I wouldn’t find it a very satisfying ending if Tenma told Harima to love Eri, and that’s how they ended up. The same goes for Odou if it happens; I’d want Tenma to come to like Harima from her own decision, not from anyone Yakumo’s decision or anyone else.

    Also, I’m not certain Harima definitely doesn’t like Eri anymore since I read the Omiai arc, Chapter 197, and the two most recent chapters. I think his recent warming up to Eri places his feelings for her in doubt from a reader perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    And the greatest promoter of this is Akira, who knows about Harima's true feelings! What Yakumo is doing is harmless compared to Akira's meddling which is breaking the heart of her best friend.
    Akira also knows Eri’s true feelings in addition to Harima’s. When two people she knows interests collide, who should she support? One of her best friends, Eri, or that guy in her class, Harima?

    Also, I wouldn’t call Yakumo’s meddling harmless. It’s indirectly caused Eri to start a feud with Tenma, causing pain to both Tenma and Eri.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Karasuma is not in a relationship with Tenma and his feelings towards her are maddeningly ambiguous. Yakumo has no obligation to him at all, especially in comparison with Harima.
    Yakumo has no obligation to Karasuma, but she still has an obligation to Tenma, who wants to have a relationship with Karasuma. There’s no reason for Yakumo not to give Karasuma a chance

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    And Yakumo definitely does oppose Eri/Harima, for reasons that may be partially selfish... but Yakumo has no obligation to support Eri's nonexistent relationship with Harima, either.
    No reason for Yakumo to support Flag, but she doesn’t have to oppose it, either. At the moment, I’m interested in how Yakumo would act if she perceived Harima showing signs he wants to be with Eri. Yakumo views Harima’s feelings as static, so her perceiving Harima showing an interest in Eri would cause her to doubt her perceptions, and I’m curious how Yakumo would deal with that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Chapter 158, specifically Yakumo's analysis of Harima and Tenma's relationship. "But for Harima Kenji and Tsukamoto Tenma that's not true!! Even when they weren't speaking they had a natural relationship!"
    You’re speaking of Chapter 159, actually. I think the chapter marks the point in the series when Yakumo decided to support Odou, and explains why she’s supporting it right now.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #26
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraness
    No reason for Yakumo to support Flag, but she doesn’t have to oppose it, either.
    She oppose it because she dislikes Eri.

    Edit: About perception and signs: If she won't doubt them or try to ignore them, but would accept that his feelings has changed, it may either tirgger her development as character (since she would heve to adapt to new for her unstaticHarima) or make dislike Harima (since he is not "ideal" anymore).
    Last edited by reinard-fox; 01-23-2007 at 03:31 PM.

  7. #27
    NeoSapien is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    You’re right that it’s just a small nudge; that’s why I never seriously brought this debate up back in Chapter 206 when I figured Yakumo was placing Harima above her sister. Yakumo hasn’t done anything serious, yet, and been I’ve waiting to see whether she backs off or becomes more forceful.

    Yakumo's matchmaking is not benevolent right now specifically because Tenma does not like Harima. Tenma won’t be complaining if she ends up falling for Harima, but Tenma hasn’t shown any indication that she likes him romantically, yet. Until Tenma does so, Yakumo’s actions will be going against Tenma’s wishes and will not be in Tenma’s interests, regardless of Yakumo’s intent.
    Yakumo feels that Harima and Tenma would be a good couple, so from her perspective it is in Tenma's interest to promote Tenma/Harima.
    You highlight here what I believe is Yakumo’s reasoning for her actions right now: that what she’s doing is not wrong because it will turn all right in the end, so she’s acting for Tenma’s sake . The end doesn’t necessarily justify the means, though, and Yakumo’s small nudge for Odou has already had a consequence I don’t think Yakumo anticipated: Tenma’s unhappiness.

    Nudging Tenma towards Harima has already caused Tenma to be unhappy since it caused strife between Tenma and Eri. So far, Yakumo’s prodding has caused Tenma to suffer indirectly, despite whatever Yakumo’s intentions are. I think this is foreshadowing more sadness for Tenma if Yakumo’s attempts at playing matchmaker continue, as I believe Yakumo was given a warning from Iori in Chapter 206.

    In Chapter 206, after Yakumo reveals her decision to support Odou by pairing the Tenma and Harima dolls, Iori suddenly appears and smacks off Harima’s head, suggesting that Tenma shouldn’t be with Harima, and Tenma stepping on Harima’s head symbolizes Tenma rejecting Harima.
    I don't think that the last page of 206 symbolizes anything specific beyond Tenma not knowing Harima and Yakumo's feelings, as said in the sidetext, and things going wrong and being generally very complicated. Yakumo is not to blame for Eri's reaction and Tenma's subsequent suffering; that is entirely Eri's fault. Yakumo had no way of knowing what would happen; if Tenma was killed by a meteorite while working on manga with Harima, it would be an indirect result of Yakumo's suggestion but certainly wouldn't be Yakumo's fault.

    The issue here is Yakumo, not everyone else under the sun. Just because others do “wrong” doesn’t justify it for Yakumo to do the same. I don’t like Yakumo pushing Harima onto Tenma, and I don’t like the other characters trying to force Eri and Harima to go out, either.

    If Flag does happen, I want it to happen because Harima comes to love Eri on his own, not because others made him to do it; for example, I wouldn’t find it a very satisfying ending if Tenma told Harima to love Eri, and that’s how they ended up. The same goes for Odou if it happens; I’d want Tenma to come to like Harima from her own decision, not from anyone Yakumo’s decision or anyone else.
    Yakumo only gave a tiny nudge to give Harima an opportunity. The ultimate decision is still Tenma's.
    Also, I’m not certain Harima definitely doesn’t like Eri anymore since I read the Omiai arc, Chapter 197, and the two most recent chapters. I think his recent warming up to Eri places his feelings for her in doubt from a reader perspective.
    Even if Harima is a little bit attracted to Eri, he still doesn't want a relationship with her at all.

    Akira also knows Eri’s true feelings in addition to Harima’s. When two people she knows interests collide, who should she support? One of her best friends, Eri, or that guy in her class, Harima?
    But Akira should know that pushing her friend towards a boy who doesn't return her affections could hurt Eri. Of course, it IS Akira; she is neither benevolent nor infallible and likes to mess with her friends to make them uncomfortable.
    Also, I wouldn’t call Yakumo’s meddling harmless. It’s indirectly caused Eri to start a feud with Tenma, causing pain to both Tenma and Eri.
    That was bound to happen anyway, as soon as Eri accepted the truth.

    Yakumo has no obligation to Karasuma, but she still has an obligation to Tenma, who wants to have a relationship with Karasuma. There’s no reason for Yakumo not to give Karasuma a chance
    Yakumo is giving Harima a chance. She isn't doing anything for or against Karasuma.

    No reason for Yakumo to support Flag, but she doesn’t have to oppose it, either. At the moment, I’m interested in how Yakumo would act if she perceived Harima showing signs he wants to be with Eri. Yakumo views Harima’s feelings as static, so her perceiving Harima showing an interest in Eri would cause her to doubt her perceptions, and I’m curious how Yakumo would deal with that situation.
    Hard to say. She would probably either accept it and move on or confront Harima to confirm his feelings and make sure he was being true to himself.

    You’re speaking of Chapter 159, actually. I think the chapter marks the point in the series when Yakumo decided to support Odou, and explains why she’s supporting it right now.
    Yep, thanks for the correction.

  8. #28
    vicius is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    Before start I will like point how Yakumo's personality has changed. Now her universe isn't only focused in her sister. Now she has a bi-polar universe Tenma-Harima. Her character has being developed until the point that she has become one of 10 favourites characters in school rumble (I’m not a onigiri supporter :P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinard-fox
    Yakumo dislikes/hates Eri. So she has reason to intentionally oppose this relationship in order to defend her precious person - Harima - from that "bitch". But she has no hard feelings against Karasuma.
    I don’t think that Yakumo hates Eri. Read her conversation after the play, they only established an official rivalry. They are trying to get a same goal but that doesn’t mean that they hate each other. Yakumo only shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraness
    At the moment, I’m interested in how Yakumo would act if she perceived Harima showing signs he wants to be with Eri.
    Kobayashi already gave a tinny peek of this in the side story when Yakumo and Iori exchange bodies. Anyway, I think it will be rather hard to her… because it’s Yakumo first love. (Since Tenma said that Yakumo didn’t had any experience with guys, I deduced it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraness
    Yakumo has no obligation to Karasuma, but she still has an obligation to Tenma, who wants to have a relationship with Karasuma. There’s no reason for Yakumo not to give Karasuma a chance.
    Her official position is that she desire Harima and Tenma’s happiness, so her natural bet is try to get an ending matching them. I will point that Yakumo thinks that the relation between her sister and Harima could be something real in the future (points Christmas chapter) However, this could be against herself so I wouldn’t encourage this thought.



    I will like to point something about Yakumo in the chapter 206. That draw of her eyes, I have a theory about it. If you see the draw you will notice a bit of sadness in her eyes, it is because her sister is getting hurt… And she knows why. I think that she is starting to feel guilty; this fact could become important in the near future since it could be the detonator for her emotions later.

    This will be interesting since Yakumo's feelings towards Harima and Tenma collide in a very curious love triangle. Anyway, the best scenary for both: Eri and Yakumo is that one where Harima is rejected by Tenma. However, it wouldn't create some hard feeling from Yakumo towards Tenma? I think soo =3

  9. #29
    liekiamhiung is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Well, we should consider Yakumo's feeling as like this :
    She wants Harima ( the one that we think that she loved ) happy, so she arranged Harima and Tenma working together. She also wanted Tenma to understand Harima's feeling. It is natural for her. And Harima already know that Tenma like Karasuma before so anything that Yakumo do was merely giving Harima a moment of happiness. although i think it is cruel to Harima too ( why gave a chance if Tenma's heart is already set so much to Karasuma's ).

    To tell that Yakumo has obligation toward Tenma or Karasuma or Harima to me, is to0 much. That is not an obligation, merely a kindness of heart.... Yakumo hasn't do anything to harm Tenma's and Karasuma relationship anyway. For me she is still stuck between Tenma's happiness and Harima's. But in the end she will choose Tenma's happiness over Harima's.

    I agree with NeoSapien, Akira was playing games with them, atleast that's how i see thing are. She can use their feeling to make somekind of amusements ( like the Survival Game event ). It's hard to read her mind.

    To say Yakumo dislikes Eri is maybe right. But, i doubt she hate Eri's. The incident in chap.206 was merely because she knew that Harima like Tenma. And the reason Yakumo asked her friend about the rumor between Harima and Eri, is because she can accept that Harima can change his feeling so easily. She find that unpleasant for her mind. And in Later pages, what Iori do can become also a sign for Yakumo, like : "Is it really something that Yakumo's want? Does she really want Harima to end up with Tenma ? What about herself then " I think when she looks at that "head of Harima's" she also thinks about a lot of think. Of Course Ultraness interpretation could be true too... Or maybe Iori's feel jealous to Harima, so it smacks the doll's head.

    I agree with NeoSapien, anything happen between Eri and Tenma is not Yakumo's fault. Why, because anything that Yakumo's do will not change Harima's hearts. If Yakumo choose to matchmaking Eri x Harima, will Harima like it or choose Eri cause of Yakumo's interfention ?. i highly doubt that. Harima's character seems will struggle towards his love. I can say that because although Harima knew Tenma's love toward Karasuma. he still chase her and not giving up.... Even if Tenma's reject her, i doubt his heart will change to others easily ( like Reinard-Fox spoke off )

    On top of it , let me state one thing (but don't kill me please :P ). If we are very confused to what are Yakumo's feeling why not wait until next chapter? wahahahahaha. Just Joking anyways
    LONG LIVE HIME-SAMA. MY LIFE FOR RUMBLANDIA!


  10. #30
    Mini Jesus is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Here's my theory, which may have been stated already since I don't have time to read through the thread at the moment...

    I think Yakumo is pushing Harima and Tenma together because she wants what's Best for her sister. She doesn't just blindly follow her sisters lead and go with whatever she says all the time. She thinks Harima will make her happier than Karasuma, and is thusly trying to get Tenma to see it too....

    Ugh, I can't explain it right at the moment, that's kinda it but I'll be back later to try and refine it and actually get my point across.

 

 
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