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  1. #181
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolox View Post
    There are, in real life, lot's of man who fall in love with someone and do..absolutely nothing about it. That's the kind of person Max is, I think (Togou should be more aggresive, knowing his character - but some reasons he isn't).
    Harima v.s Togou - that could be trauma for Harima (how can you fight with guy who takes every challange as some kind of "Mortal Kombat of Pride" - annoying and confusing )
    Thats me lol, looking back im glad i didn't.

    I think Tougou's unbending pride and Harima's machoness would clash in a beautiful rainbow of fun.

  2. #182
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Many guys have this kind of experience in their loves (manga's are directed mostly to those shy Japanese guys with no self-confidence - so they won't become old perverts when they get older).

    Togou appearance... probably next time at movie preview...

    (this thread is going to die, right ? Or are we sticking to it ?)

  3. #183
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    This thread is going to be unstikied and ch209 one will be stikied instead.

  4. #184
    Kolox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Thought so, Jakko is off-line (it's just 2 p.m in america), so we will need to wait for the changes.

    The thread experiment is still on going - right now I have no complaints (and no differences), let's see how will it work out.

  5. #185
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Exactly. If he forgets (it is possible, since he has 2 more sections to moderate) we'll just PM him. And of course if this sistem will be admitted to be an inconvenient one will switch to sth else.

  6. #186
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    So i guess any debates will be continued in the 209 thread lol huzzah

  7. #187
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Well, basically ch209 thread is for that chapter discussion so if you want to continue debates that are going in this thread here you can continue them freely - noone is locking this thread after all.

  8. #188
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Well, either the interactions between Harima and Tenma or between Eri and Harima will have to end up "for naught" at the end.
    Either Harima or Eri will have to give up on their one-sided relationships, but Eri doesnít have anybody else to fall back on should Flag not happen while Harima has Eri. Way more interactions become for naught should Odou happen: Eriís developing feelings for Harima are pointless, Harimaís slight development in his attitude towards Eri becomes pointless, Tenmaís interactions with Karasuma become unnecessary as well as the few moments when Karasuma has shown a developing interest in Tenma.

    In the Flag path, not even Harimaís obsession with Tenma is ďfor naughtď, since it serves as a good source of tension and Harima hasnít shown any real development in his feelings for Tenma, anyways. From a plot perspective, it doesnít make sense for Kobayashi to have an Odou ending if heís going for a happy ending since it will make many of his charactersí development pointless in hindsight.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    However, Eri has greatly changed due to her growing (if one-sided) relationship with Harima, so even if she doesn't end up with him, she will have grown enormously as a person.
    Itís true Eri has changed dramatically since the beginning of the series. Harima, on the other hand, has not developed dramatically with his one-sided relationship. Heís still pursuing the perfect vision of Tenma heís had since the beginning of the series and makes no effort to get to know the real Tenma. Thereís massive room for character development left for Harima, and a great way for Harima to develop would be through the Flag path.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Also, Eri has fallen for Harima largely because she thought he had an intense love for her. This was completely wrong. But Max does have that sort of love for her. Hence, Max would be better for her since their relationship wouldn't be based on mistakes and misunderstandings.
    Eri fell in love with Harima again while he was Worker-san, making the statement Eri fell for him because she misbelieved he had an intense love for her invalid. In case you forgot, Harima started liking Tenma after he heard a ďconfessionĒ from Tenma. However, Harima has not fallen in love with Tenma a second time without realizing it was her. This post reeks of a double-standard.

    Also, this doesnít serve as proof that Max would be better suited for Eri. We know almost nothing about Maxís character, and have no idea why he likes Eri... if he even does like her.

    How do you know that Max loves Eri on a level with Eriís love for Harima? Also, why is it okay for Max to end up with Eri by your standards? Remember, if what you say is true about Maxís feelings, Max attacked Harima because Max misunderstood Harima was dating Eri and became jealous. Youíve condemned Eri in previous posts for simply giving Tenma a cold shoulder after Eri became jealous. There seems to be another double-standard in you reasoning here.

    Anyways, Iíll start thinking a Max/Eri pairing is in hand after the two show some solid feelings for each other, not when Max is just a convenient excuse to get Eri out of the way for an Odou ending.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Finally, Harima's love for Tenma is the center of the story. Practically everything he does is driven by it. In chapter 158, Harima risked missing his deadline and thus his entire future as a mangaka just because he couldn't stand to keep the truth from her any longer. And in chapter 159, Yakumo gave the greatest support for Harima and Tenma's compatibility: "No, that's wrong, Nee-san. If you really did hate him, you wouldn't have been able to say what you said. A gentle smile, 'Oh is that right Harima-kun ha ha ha.' A normal person would have done something like that. That kind of unnaturalness would mess up a relationship. But...! For Tsukamoto Tenma and Harima Kenji, that's not true!
    Eriís love for Harima has been the center of the story for a while now, in case you didnít read the last sixty chapters or so.

    Iíd feel more sympathy for Harima in Chapter 158 if he didnít selfishly impose himself onto Tenma after he made her sad by destroyed her gift for Karasuma. As for Chapter 159, Iíd take Yakumoís opinion with a grain of salt; Chapter 206 shows that she has an ideal vision of Harima that sheíll go out of her way to preserve.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Even when they weren't talking they had a natural relationship!"
    Harima acts unnaturally around Tenma; read Chapter 205 again.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    I actually missed Max's implied feelings on the first read, but it's fairly strongly implied. That's not something that would be introduced for no reason. It will play a role in the story. In fairness, the same can be said of Tougou's feelings for Tenma, and I'm positive that he won't wind up with her in the end.
    How are you so positive Tougou will not pair off with Tenma, yet so certain Max will end up with Eri?

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Again, the same goes for Harima and Tenma, except that Harima's love for Tenma is a bigger part of his character relative to Eri's love for Harima.
    What? Every major arc involving Eri has resolved around her feelings for Harima since he confessed to her way back in Volume 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    But they were fanned by an epic series of accidents and misunderstandings, culminating in the unbelievable chain of events that led to Eri finding a counterfeited marriage charm with her and Harima's names on it. Harima was even carried off by a runaway palanquin to prevent him from explaining it. There have been countless incidents when Eri thought Harima was taking actions because of her while he was really doing them for Tenma.
    Ah, those misunderstandings are just signs that Flag is fated to happen.

    Seriously, though, why is Kobayashi constantly reviving Flag with these misunderstandings if he isnít aiming for a Flag ending? Itíd make more sense if heís planning an Odou ending to just make Eri lose interest in him already, and have more chapters that focus on Tenma losing interest in Karasuma, which is most critical in order for Odou to occur, and have Tenma spend way more time with Harima.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    Flag is pretty compelling, especially on Eri's side. However, Harima's side has been greatly neglected since the temple incident. I think that if Harima was going to end up with Eri, his feelings for Eri should have progressed more by now. It is true that Harima and Eri get along together even when they are fighting, but the same can be said of Harima and Hanai, and they certainly don't... well... let's try to forget about that story, eh? The last time the girls pointed out that Eri and Harima "get along so well" (in 202 at the party), they were dead wrong. Harima was genuinely annoyed by the constant teasing, and Eri was confused and a little hurt by Harima's standoffishness. And then, of course, IT happened.
    Harimaís side being neglected makes me think Flag is more likely to happen, not less likely. Letís say in Chapter 210, Harima does something that makes it obvious heís going to end up with Eri. Then weíll all know how the series is going to end, and then the remaining chapters will lose suspense. Authors of effective romance stories, where the chase is the point, keep one side of a main relationship vague on purpose so that readers donít know the ending right away. If Harima changes his feelings for Eri, itís going to be quick and near the end of the series. Kobayashi has already had Eri crack his tunnel-vision slightly, so it wonít be too much of a stretch for Harima to suddenly realize he loves her.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    I think the situation is going to completely explode in the near future. Things are way too unstable as long as Eri knows and Harima and Tenma don't. My theory (of which maybe 10% might actually happen :P) is that the oyster date will fail spectacularly due to the Tenma factor, leading to Eri shouting out the truth to Tenma, a dramatic confession by Harima, a rejection (or at least an apparent one) by an overwhelmed Tenma, and a guilty Eri picking up the pieces of Harima's heart. When the dust clears, Harima and Eri will be going out and Tenma will - somehow - be with Tougou (a confession mistaking Tougou for Karasuma would have an ironic touch), which will greatly complicate the making of the album movie. Eri and Harima will try to make it work but fail because of Harima's still strong feelings for Tenma and Eri's jealousy, while Tenma, who is finally aware that Harima liked her from the beginning, falls for him. Then, at the end of March, Shawn returns and the final battle begins.
    Other than Tenma making things explode, I donít think anything else there is going to happen. The situation you make sounds like a story Iíd find in fan fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSapien View Post
    I think that Tougou will be used as a rival whom Harima can compete with for Tenma. Karasuma is totally above Harima in manga writing, fighting and the affections of Tenma and thus beyond direct competition, while Harima's other "rivals" for Tenma, Tennouji (if he counts) and Nara Kentarou (hah!) are jokes who can't compete with Harima at all. But Tougou is a peer of Harima and Hanai and so makes for a better rival.
    Harima being so out of Karasumaís league illustrates how futile his goal of ending up with Tenma is, and whatís the point of Harima having a rival that isnít his true rival, Karasuma? Also, you criticize Eri for starting a rivalry with Tenma, so why is it all right for Harima to have rivalries? Heís started a one-sided rivalry with Karasuma who did nothing against him, much like Eri did with Tenma.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #189
    -Ajax- is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraness View Post
    Ah, those misunderstandings are just signs that Flag is fated to happen.

    Seriously, though, why is Kobayashi constantly reviving Flag with these misunderstandings if he isnít aiming for a Flag ending? Itíd make more sense if heís planning an Odou ending to just make Eri lose interest in him already, and have more chapters that focus on Tenma losing interest in Karasuma, which is most critical in order for Odou to occur, and have Tenma spend way more time with Harima.



    Harimaís side being neglected makes me think Flag is more likely to happen, not less likely. Letís say in Chapter 210, Harima does something that makes it obvious heís going to end up with Eri. Then weíll all know how the series is going to end, and then the remaining chapters will lose suspense. Authors of effective romance stories, where the chase is the point, keep one side of a main relationship vague on purpose so that readers donít know the ending right away. If Harima changes his feelings for Eri, itís going to be quick and near the end of the series. Kobayashi has already had Eri crack his tunnel-vision slightly, so it wonít be too much of a stretch for Harima to suddenly realize he loves her.


    Harima being so out of Karasumaís league illustrates how futile his goal of ending up with Tenma is, and whatís the point of Harima having a rival that isnít his true rival, Karasuma? Also, you criticize Eri for starting a rivalry with Tenma, so why is it all right for Harima to have rivalries? Heís started a one-sided rivalry with Karasuma who did nothing against him, much like Eri did with Tenma.
    Mm, a lot of good point about things ive had on my mind for a while now. Most strikingly the comment about Harima's thoughts being almost mute during times he is with Eri. We mostly see what is going on inside Eri's head and we mostly see nothing more than what she sees when they're together in respects to what Harima is doing or thinking. At best we usually get a facial expression, "...", simple "?", "!", or a short statement like...



    or in Chapter 197, but this isn't always true, ch152 shows a lot of Harima's thoughts in that situation, but the silent Harima happens more often than not.

    Karasuma being out of Harima's league has always irked me somewhat...being a Harima fan and seeing a seemingly normal boy easily take down a brawler like Harima over and over again in more than one way lol
    I guess if it serves a purpose like you stated above i can get over it, not to mention it makes perfect sense.

  10. #190
    ultraness is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    Mm, a lot of good point about things ive had on my mind for a while now. Most strikingly the comment about Harima's thoughts being almost mute during times he is with Eri. We mostly see what is going on inside Eri's head and we mostly see nothing more than what she sees when they're together in respects to what Harima is doing or thinking. At best we usually get a facial expression, "...", simple "?", "!"
    I have a conspiracy theory going through my head that Kobayashi is purposely neglecting multiple charactersí thoughts to make Flag appear less likely to happen, not just with Harimaís thoughts.

    For example, earlier in the manga Kobayashi would mirror Harimaís inner declarations of love for Tenma with Tenmaís declarations of love for Karasuma. In recent chapters, though, weíre rarely reminded that Tenma still likes Karasuma, so Harimaís recent time with Tenma looks more productive for Odou, while making Flag look less likely, though itís clear from Chapter 207 that Tenma is still not interested in Harima.

    Then thereís Karasuma who used to show up every now and then and would do something to show heís developing feelings for Tenma, while making Flag appear more likely. In recent chapters, though, heís pretty much disappeared, and his absence removes even more hope for Flaggers.

    Yakumo is another character that raises my suspicion; sheís way too ambivalent, and she shouldnít be. Her interactions with Harima can be interpreted such that she likes him as a romantic interest or that she likes him in a Platonic way. I think Chapter 206 proved Yakumo only likes him as a friend, but why should Kobayashi take so long to reveal Yakumoís feelings for Harima, and why reveal the truth after Tenma replaces Yakumo as Eriís rival?

    If my way of thinking is right, here, itís because Kobayashi has never intended to have Yakumo as a rival for Harimaís affections , but wanted to keep the fear Flag fans have that Yakumo will end up with Harima (a legitimate fear considering Yakumo wins all the ďbattlesĒ the two have) for as long as possible until a new ďrivalĒ came along to fill in the void. If you think back a hundred chapters, Yakumo didnít become Eriís new rival, from Eriís perspective, until after Eriís ďrivalryĒ with Tae had ended.

    This adds up to a nice conspiracy about Kobayashi purposely hiding several charactersí thoughts in order to make Flag look less likely, but I havenít explained why Kobayashi would do this, yet. The answer is conflict and catharsis (the purging of the emotions or relieving of emotional tensions; basically, itís the feeling of relief you feel after tension is cleared in fiction). The greater the conflict Eri goes through, the greater the resulting catharsis will be should she succeed, and the better the ending will be, as a result.

    Part of the appeal of Flag comes from Eriís underdog status, and sheís gained it from all the conflict she regularly encounters. Readers are used to seeing her in this light; thatís why thereís so much unease from Flag fans after reading Chapters 207 and 208, and this also serves as a way to make Flag appear less likely by presenting Eri as an ďanti-heroĒ for a change. Personally, I donít think this phase will last long for Eri, since she already appears to be wavering in her fight against Tenma (Eriís pause after sending her curt reply to Tenma in 20.

    I get the feeling that Iím either nailing exactly what Kobayashi is up to or hitting my thumb with this theory. But I canít help myself; I just enjoy trying to get into authorsí brains too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
    or in Chapter 197, but this isn't always true, ch152 shows a lot of Harima's thoughts in that situation, but the silent Harima happens more often than not.
    Harimaís thoughts towards Eri have been mysteriously absent most of the time since Chapter 152 when Eri seemed to crack his tunnel vision, especially when he does something positive for Eri. For example, recently, in Chapters 197, and 209, Harima does nice things for Eri but we arenít shown whatís going through his head, which fits into my theory, and it serves to put us in Eriís shoes and build sympathy for her; Eri doesnít know what Harimaís thinking, and neither do we.
    Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

 
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