Wow, I really was just joking.
Originally Posted by OoO
Lol, I say, but I'm actually not laughing out loud, or rolling on the floor, and my butt hasn't fallen off yet, sooo...
The twist and the kick serve are the same serve. I hate it when people incorrectly say they are different.
They just have two names because of the effect they have.
In the deuce (right) court the twist / kick serve kicks away from the player toward the side of the court going out of bounds hence the name "kick," while in the add (left) side of the court it "kicks" toward the inside of the court which is usually toward the opponents body hence the name "twist."
Ryoma uses both hands alternatively to be able to get a "twist" on both the deuce and add side of the tennis court -- it's an advantage to ambidextrous players.
Join the movement today.
you can never quite tell. i was just playing it safe. ;P
Originally Posted by mystic_guard_sinoel
Okay. I consulted by local teaching pro on these moves. Here's what I got:
For anyone who thinks they can hit Waterfall. You're an idiot. Andy Roddick can't hit Waterfall consistently. It's a 135 mph serve. Do the math people, it's not that hard. Or just take a glance at the speedometer the next time you're in a car and eyeball it. 60 mph is about equal to 110 kph.
Twist/Kick Serve: These are easy. Especially for lefties. A kick serve is a serve with topsin on it, so it bounces much highed then you would expect. THis is the 'kick' they talk about. A Twist serve is a serve with spin on it so it bounces towards the RIGHT. Ryoma is an idiot and should just hit a regular left-handed slice serve. A right-hander will always hit with a latent right-left spin, which is why the Twist Serve is so versatile in that it puts a left-right spin on the ball. This gives the impression is bounces towards the face. Example. If I'm serving on the deuce side, a proper twist serve will hit the ground and bounce to the the server's right.
Snake- Yeah right.
Tanhausser Serve/Zero-Shiki/Tsubame Gaeshi- These ones are interesting. It's possible to hit Zero-Shiki on clay since the ball's spin catches all the clay particles and loses a lot of forward momentum. As for Tsubame Gaeshi/Tanhausser/COOL Drive, these are impossible. The ball bounces due to compression upon hitting the ground. As such, the ONLY way to hit a true one of these is by hitting the ball with so much spin it reaches maximum compression at a perfect 90 degree angle with the ground so the ball physically can't bounce. Yes, they are impossible. Please don't say they are. If they were doable, Roddick/Federer would do them.
Divine Vanishing- THis is Chitose's really cool serve. THis is doable. THis is a kick serve with a buttload of spin on it so the topsin causes a really high bounce.
Disappearing SErve- Also possible, but it'll only work once unless you're opponent's retarded.
Jack Knife- Doable.
Enbu Tennis- This is my favorite one and it's so often ignored. All the pros use this to determine where their opponent's gonna hit the ball based on footwork and arm movement. Federer returns A-Rod's 120+ serve from INSIDE the baseline. It's impossible to do blind, you have to pay attention to footwork and stuff.
Twist Spin Shot- So much fun to attempt for so little results.
Hadoukyuu- Even more fun that Twist SPin Shot. Hold the racquet like a baseball bat and take a huge windup.
Tornado Snake- You're an idiot if you think this is possible.
Acrobatics- Yes, this is doable. Yes, I can hit a between-the-legs shot. No, I cannot hit Kikumaru beam.
Spot- This DOESN"T cause paralysis. however, it will result in a lot of free points if you hit with consistently, heavy top/heavy slice to one stroke.
Anything else you want to know? I've been trying to make a video for youtube on the difference between kick serve and twist serve for a while now, but never got around to it.
First of all none of the following comments are not meant to be personal. I just want to get correct information out there.
Reading through the waterfall statement I was thinking in my head “Thank you, someone that knows tennis.” That is until I read the following paragraph…
Sorry, but this paragraph is chock full of incorrect information.
Originally Posted by taniquetil
The kick/twist is the same difficulty for both right-handers and left-handers. Left-handers have an advantage with them because game points are played on the add side of the court where they can use the twist to its full potential. The kick serve you talk about is just a basic high bouncing topspin serve. While it does get mistaken for a true kick serve, it’s still just topspin. A high bounce topspin serve and a twist/kick serve are completely different things. Ask David Nalbandian about that one, he has a masterful high bouncing topspin serve which forces his opponents to either step back or hit them at near shoulder height. I'd also say that while the high bounce topspin serve and the twist/kick serve are about equal in difficulty, there is a significantly large gap in performing a twist/kick serve and a normal topspin serve.
Twist serves don’t have a full right-left spin but rather an intermediate of the topspin and sidespin.
This spin is versatile because it creates the illusion of a slice serve only to bounce in a sharp direction slightly to the right of where its trajectory projects it to go. For example a right handed player uses a twist serve from the deuce side of the court towards his opponents body: to a right-handed receiver it would look like a slice heading to his right hand side thus he would naturally set up a forehand return, only to be caught by the twist from the bounce which would make the ball go to his left hand side making him unable to perform a full stroke return. The same effect would then go for the following point on the add side of the court, the ball would appear to slice left toward the center of the court only to bounce once again to the right.
For left-handers the spin changes direction and goes in a leftward direction thus enabling the trickier spin for more crucial periods of the match.
Ambidextrous players can switch hands and use the dominant spin headed toward the outside of the courts to fully maximize the usefulness of the serve.
The bold black line in the center of each smaller picture represents the net. (Note that the doubles boundaries are absent from the diagram.)
The purple is a rough and slightly exaggerated rendition of the path of the ball when you hit a proper twist/kick serve. For right-handers it will always go right, for left-handers always left.
The green area is the area you want to aim if you want to maximize the “twist” effect against a right-handed opponent by leading the opponent into a spot where he/she will predominately hit a forehand. This makes full use of the illusion that it bounces toward your body. Against left-handers use the yellow areas to maximize the “twist” effect.
The yellow area is the area you want to aim for to maximize the “kick” effect of the serve against right-handed opponents. Aiming for these causes your opponent to chase the ball to their backhand side only to have it attack their forehand side. The “kick” effect is useful for quick serve and volleys and planned crosscourt attempts. It makes most out of the kick by forcing your opponent to return the ball from the alleys or near the alleys. Against left-handers, use the green side to maximize the "kick" effect.
Again, I emphasize, the twist serve and the kick serve are one and the same.
A lot of people can return Roddick's serve inside the baseline, the most notable ones being: Paradorn Srichaphan, Angre Agassi, Gustavo Kuerten, and like you said Roger Federer. It's a combination of handy body reading and a really consistent rising shot return.
The Disappearing serve is not real. Physics-wise? Yes. But in a match situation? Definitely no.
Snake is real. Watch Martina Hingis. It's over-exaggerated obviously, but that is a real shot.
Divine Vanishing is just an exaggerated version of David Nalbandian's signature high bouncer, others like Sebastian Grosjean and Tim Henman have one too, although not as high bouncing as Nalbandian's.
Join the movement today.
Wow d.A thanks... again lots of info on the kick/twist and the topspin serve... how does the point of contact differ for the twist/kick and the topspin serves? I want to know if I am hitting a topspin or a kick serve.
At least 80% of the Prince of Tennis moves are real. Just very very very exaggerated. If you had a robot arm you could probably test these out.
Hakugei White Whale - I've done it w/ a beach ball. You spin it really hard backwards (backspin) and the ball will fly straight up and curve back. If there was monster spin, it could perhaps land and come back.
O and a Hula Hoop, When I put massive back spin, it rolls back to me.
Tornado Snake is loosely based on the Magus Effect
Tezuka Zone/Reverse Tezuka Zone is possible. Guess your opponent is going to hit to the right, give lots of side spin so when your opponent hits the the right, it spins to the left and curves back to you. (I know it would be had to predict though, hey maybe if you guess wrong = Reverse Tezuka Zone!!!) Robot Arm required.
Snake is real, Ping Pong. Not very as exaggerated but do able.
Zero Shiki - possible.. hard but possible.
Atobe Tannszer serve - robot arm
Habu - No.
Kikumaru Seal Step - I guess if you had a really really fast robot going back and forth, but thats like DBZ physics then. Its not against physics. Except when he hugs himself.
Rai - I guess not.
My point is most are possible. Its within Physics. Just would have to use a super robot arm.
Living the High Life.
some moves in POT are actually done in real life, just tone them down 10 times or more (twist serve, buggy whip shot, jack knife, etc.)
from what i've known the twist serve is a kind of kick serve. kick serves are serves with a lot of spin put in the ball, usually done on 2nd serves. they can either be top spin serves (w/c can catch an opponent off-guard because when the ball bounces its speed is increased) or side spin serves (the twist) w/c is, IMO, more effective to hit away from the opponent rather than towards the opponent.
i've seen many players hit buggy whip shots but usually were angled for only 20-30 degrees, not 90 above.
also the jack knife, but not too strong to blow a racket away. i'm yet to see a shot that blew a racket away, as i think it's impossible.
tezuka zone/phantom is impossible. a superhuman force is required to hit a spin that an opponent can't nullify, and tons of mind power to guess all the time where the opponent's gonna hit. remember too that tezuka zone requires shots hit that curves a lot in mid-air, which is an impossible feat in tennis. the tennis ball is too heavy to be influenced by the magnus effect in such a way.
the non-bouncing shots are impossible, too, even on grass courts. clay courts are slow but the ball bounces higher than usual, effective for baseliners (nadal) and disadvantageous for serve and volleyers (sampras), so it's actually the most impossible on clay. i'm only pointing this out since someone commented that the zero-shiki drop shot is possible on clay courts. on grass that might be possible (the ball bounces the lowest) but still requires a superhuman back spin. remember that for the ball not to bounce, the force of the spin must be greater than the forward force of the ball (applying the 3rd law of motion, i think)
Disappearing serve - just imagining this is really crazy for me, i mean can you really make a ball disappear just right before you hit it? this is an underhand serve so it's really slow, and with the spin it's supposed to fly off away from you right after the bounce, not before you hit it, so you can still chase the ball and return, making the move itself pretty useless. but this is one of my favorites of fuji's.
hadoukyuu might be possible but not enough force to blow a racket away (moreso a human)
dunk smash is possible too (i've heard the commentators call sampras' smash as slam dunk) but of course no one jumps higher than their heights
IMO, in real tennis spins are not used to effect crazy ball movements in mid-air (habu, ball curving almost 180 degrees, etc), but to control the bounce and the speed of the ball. spins are mostly used by serve and volleyers to effectively hit volleys that are wide-angled and low bouncing.
Last edited by kakashi1300; 12-06-2007 at 07:05 AM.
^Well like I said, everything is superhumanly exaggerated, but may be able to reproduce w/ a robot. Its not defying physics, just requires lots and lots and lots and lots of strength. Or you would have to tone down earth physics and think moon physics. For example, using a tennis ball to make someone fly away, its possible if you had a really reallly really strong machine. (I'm talking like a tank or something and the ball stays in tact)
Twist serves + Kick Slices
I've actually seen some really great twist serves and experienced one. We played a Division 1 school North Wood High School. We are Division 3 but we are the top of our division and our coach gets very good schools to play w/ us thought USTA Team Tennis.
-Our Singles 1 wasn't here (a saturday) so I actually took his place which is bad. Singles 2 had a reeeeaaaaally good twist serve it is very heavy and fast and high ~5.5-5.10ft and it actually bounces around 30-45 degrees to the left.
-Their Doubles 1 guy had a massive Slice Kick, Kicked super high ~5.10-6ft and I say 45 degrees everytime.
-We didn't win one match, 0-18
A sophomore of ours had a twist serve and twist slice. They weren't extreme but he could trick you. I'd say good kick 5-5.7ft and 30 degrees at most but not monster speed. B/C a twist serve starts off looking like a slice, he could do either and you couldn't tell which he was doing. I guess if you take very careful eye to his arms and contact when he does it, but he tricks me all the time.
-Thats a Twist serve *getting ready to jump w/ my twohand backhand* then "NANI!!?!!?11!!?" Kick Slice, it goes the other way.
-Drive C sticking to the ground is possible. According to Inui, its b/c of the topspin I think it adheres to the ground.
-Hm.. not sure about Zero Shiki or Renji's Cicada, I guess you would have to use a robot to figure that out.
You don't believe in a Tennis Ball's Power?
This I recommend watching this: 500 mph Tennis Ball Launcher
-they shoot through board, shoot out a broom, through a tennis racket, then through a computer screen.
-Would you like to stick our your racket and try to return that? Break your wrist.
Not sure you want to see this one, guy gets shot, breaks a rib, close up of spot hit:
-Look at the guy hold off those tennis balls + someone gets hit in face.
Roddick's Ultimate Serve:
-Ball stops right on the spot, unreturnable ace.
A living creature was killed by tennis:
I guess a tennis ball can't make you fly away. Possible, would have to be very very very... (you get the point)...powerful.
-Habu is impossible
-Disappearing serve is impossible
Remember though, this is a anime/manga and from Japan. Comon, how about Sanosuke's Zanbatou or Kenshin's ridiculous speed and power in Rurouni Kenshin or Bleach or Naruto. I guess Bleach + Naruto have some magic to explain though.
The sword stuff is possible, just super human str/robot.
Last edited by tennisthehilife; 12-06-2007 at 09:50 AM.
Reason: Added a few more videos.
Living the High Life.