Thread: An interesting question regarding Devil Fruit...

First off, I'll begin just by restating the basic stuff we all already know, just so it doesn't have to be said again, over and over.

The 3 types of Devil Fruit as we know them:
Paramecia: A fruit that makes some minor but fundamental changes to the users body that gives them their ability. (A good example would be the changes made to Buggy's body that allowed him to seperate himself at will, or Alvida's body that gave her that ludicrously smooth skin, neither of which change the user's body to an entirely different substance, which as you will see later is my principle point.)

Zoan: A fruit that creates a hybridization between the species that the user is originally and the species that the fruit specifies; they gain 3 basic forms that include the creature's original form, the creature's half-original half-"fruit based" species form, and the creature's full "fruit based" form. (Dalton, Rob Lucci, and Chopper are good examples of this, with Chopper obviously having altered his abilities using his creation: the Rumble Ball.)

Logia: A fruit that converts the user him/herself into a fundamental element such that their body becomes that element and they gain full control and usage of that element in whatever form they find it. (Luffy's brother Ace can convert himself entirely into fire, and then he can also spawn into a much larger mass of fire and manipulate that fire. Enel was lightning in much the same way that Ace was fire, and he could control that lightning and likely any lightning he encountered as he pleased. And finally Crocodile, bless his heart, was Sand which isn't a principle element like Fire or Lightning or Ice, which is why I can make my case in the first place. He could turn into sand and so on, but most importantly, he could control the sand around him that wasn't even part of his body, proving my statement about Logia users controlling stuff made of their element even if it isn't part of their body.)

Ok, now we don't have to repeat any of that in the discussion.

So here's the question. Luffy is listed as Paramecia. However, his whole body was changed into rubber, not an element but still a substance.

So if his whole body became an entirely different substance isn't he halfway between a Paramecia and a Logia fruit? All our other Paramecia users didn't have their entire body become a substance. They just had a change to the attributes of their bodies. And obviously Logia doesn't have to be primary elements like Fire and Ice and Lightning and so on. Because we have a Smoke user and a Sand user, neither of which fit into that category.

Regarding the first question I have another; where is it said that Luffy ate a Paramecia fruit? Could I get a link to that?

i'd say that luffy's fruit is not logia because he can't "divide" himself in a volatile substance without shape.... even if he can stretch, his body stay one and the same....

even more important : if he is cut, he loses his arm/leg etc. => he cannot reconstruct himself as a logia user could... (i'm assuming, because he has not been choped off yet )

but overall, it's true that his fruit is nearer logia than most of the others paramecia, although i think he is paramecia ^^" (i don't remember that being said in the manga ever )

well... concerning the 1st question. i think this was probably something oda didn't think about thoroughly when he 1st made the 3 categories. i dunno if u can call it a plot-hole but i choose not 2. we all know one piece doesn't need 2 follow the laws of science, so classifying elements, substances, their properties n whatnot weren't any of oda's concerns i guess. plus, if the logia fruit only had classical elements, there wouldn't b that many logia fruits. from this i guess u can bring up another query; r we talking about chemical elements as well or just what is actually known as classical elements? chemical elements r of course what we all studied in highschool, which would mean there is a coppercopper/doudou fruit or something. on the other hand that wouldn't make sense cos that'd allow the existence of some...magnesium fruit?

i suppose that means oda only referred 2 the generic elements, or classical elements taken from ancient philosophies n beliefs which were used 2 explain patterns of nature, astrology, n well...science in general in olden times. thus we're here thinking of earth, fire, wind, water (captain planet theme song again comes in2 my head) as the PRIMARY elements. then again, that's only in the western world, in the east more elements existed like wood n metal. i'm no expert tho. the point is (if i haven't lost u or lost myself already) with so many things 2 consider, oda is but a humble mangaka, therefore we dunno if he had hidden intentions or something when classifying which fruit gives what power under what classification or if it was just 2 complicated. i dunno if any of that made any sense, bare with me i haven't had lunch 2day...

as 4 the 2nd question, i really dun think i can b bothered rereading 399 chapters looking 4 references so i'll depend on what little memory my mind has. i dun think it was ever mentioned that luffy was a paramecia type by any1, the 1st time the 3 types of devil fruits were mentioned was with either chess or the other guy on drum island i think.
it's when they were fighting chopper n 1 of the guys taunt by saying he knows all of chopper's ability, n explains that the 3 types of fruits, n that he knew chopper was a zoan. i dunno if he did mention luffy being a paramecia type as well, but if he did then i guess that means this whole time, luffy being classified as a paramecia type was just what his past enemies have thought. could leave an opening in the end where some devil fruit professor comes up n says "paramecia? heavens no! the gomu gomu is a logia type, the strongest of them all"

EDIT: ah, i 4got 2 mention, but reading shautieh's post is the main answer. i guess in the big picture, what oda will classify as a logia fruit r also substances without a fixed shape.

I think luffy's fruit is a paramecia. Because Mr 1 has a paramecia thats changes his body into steel blades. So it is sort of like the same thing.

Regarding Shautieh's point, as far as we know Luffy can't divide himself or reconstruct his body, which like you pointed out, is definitely something all the logia users seem to be able to do. Crocodile literally does it in the manga, as does Enel. Aokiji does it during his skirmish with the Straw Hats on Ring Island, in which he truly showed how badass he was by reconstructing himself even as he broke down and then catching (zoro's?) head in his arm and slamming him down. So yeah, I agree that unless he suddenly learns he can do it and never knew he could until then, he's definitely not a true Logia user.

About what ns8730 said, yeah, I was thinking Greek "Classical" Elements too. I had forgotten the term actually, thanks. And yeah, it's sort of an expanded list in the East, not just the Greek 4; Fire/Wind/Water/Earth, but also many others. So my hope was that Oda may have expanded it, since he added Sand/Cloud/Ice etc, perhaps he could stretch it further and add something like Rubber. It certainly fits the idea that Luffy is made entirely of this stuff, which is one "Principle of Logia".

And finally, crow-kun brought up something that had originally concerned me too. Mr. 1's ability, the way he turned his body into steel blades. But that's just the thing, it's similar, very similar, but perhaps not basic enough? His partner turned herself into spikes, which is a fundamental change to her body but not to the substance that makes up her body, branding her as Paramecia. Daz Bonez (Mr. 1's real name I think?) was halfway between that and what Luffy is. If his ability had been that he became steel, then he'd be about where Luffy is.

So if I were to create a sort of scale between Paramecia and Logia, I could do it like this:

Paramecia------------------------------------------------Logia
[-------------------------------------------------------------]
B------M-------D----------------L----------------------------E

L = Luffy
D = Daz Bonez (Mr. 1)
M = Miss Doublefinger (Mr. 1's Partner)
B = Buggy
E = Enel

Logia users can reassemble their bodies from their elements when transformed or damaged, apparently without long-term consequences or even the sensation of pain. Gomu Gomu is definitely not a Logia fruit.

I think it's the definations we're working under that's causing these problems:

Paramecia: A fruit that changes the construction of the users body and effects the way they can control it.

Zoan: A fruit that creates a hybridization between the species that the user is originally and the species that the fruit specifies; they gain 3 basic forms that include the creature's original form, the creature's half-original half-"fruit based" species form, and the creature's full "fruit based" form.

Logia: A fruit that gives the user compete control of one substance whether external or internal. The user has the ability to change thier body into this substance with no evidence of long-term damage.


Using these definations, Luffy would clearly fall under Paramecia. I'm not completely sure what her name is but there's this marine officer nicknamed the black cage, where exactly would she stand?

Hina the Black Cage? She ate Ori Ori fruit, which is Cage Cage fruit basically. She'd have to be Paramecia too.

You're right, it's probably the definitions that are causing the most trouble in all this.

Originally Posted by ajp12

Logia users can reassemble their bodies from their elements when transformed or damaged, apparently without long-term consequences or even the sensation of pain. Gomu Gomu is definitely not a Logia fruit.

It should be noted here that I also don't think that the Gomu Gomu Fruit is a Logia Fruit. My theory is that it's halfway between, and my theory goes on to say that there isn't as much of a wall between Paramecia and Logia as there is between Zoan and the other two fruits. My hypothesis is that there's a sort of scale, like the proxy one I created earlier, that can judge how close a paramecia fruit is to logia status.

Mr 3 creates wax, he doesn't turn into it.... so he must be paramecia...
same for hina, she can create cages > paramecia

it could be that luffy actually ate 2 fruits!! hence the difficulty in classifying his powers.

im probably wrong...but it just seems odd to me that the mangaka would mention the consequences of eating more than one fruit right now in this arc after so long.

im pretty sure luffy ate more than one fruit tho...maybe thats the cause of the Gear Second fiasco!