Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 58
  1. #1
    Cold-NiTe's Avatar
    Cold-NiTe is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dallas, Tx, US
    Posts
    3,872

    Default An interesting question regarding Devil Fruit...

    First off, I'll begin just by restating the basic stuff we all already know, just so it doesn't have to be said again, over and over.

    The 3 types of Devil Fruit as we know them:
    Paramecia: A fruit that makes some minor but fundamental changes to the users body that gives them their ability. (A good example would be the changes made to Buggy's body that allowed him to seperate himself at will, or Alvida's body that gave her that ludicrously smooth skin, neither of which change the user's body to an entirely different substance, which as you will see later is my principle point.)

    Zoan: A fruit that creates a hybridization between the species that the user is originally and the species that the fruit specifies; they gain 3 basic forms that include the creature's original form, the creature's half-original half-"fruit based" species form, and the creature's full "fruit based" form. (Dalton, Rob Lucci, and Chopper are good examples of this, with Chopper obviously having altered his abilities using his creation: the Rumble Ball.)

    Logia: A fruit that converts the user him/herself into a fundamental element such that their body becomes that element and they gain full control and usage of that element in whatever form they find it. (Luffy's brother Ace can convert himself entirely into fire, and then he can also spawn into a much larger mass of fire and manipulate that fire. Enel was lightning in much the same way that Ace was fire, and he could control that lightning and likely any lightning he encountered as he pleased. And finally Crocodile, bless his heart, was Sand which isn't a principle element like Fire or Lightning or Ice, which is why I can make my case in the first place. He could turn into sand and so on, but most importantly, he could control the sand around him that wasn't even part of his body, proving my statement about Logia users controlling stuff made of their element even if it isn't part of their body.)

    Ok, now we don't have to repeat any of that in the discussion.

    So here's the question. Luffy is listed as Paramecia. However, his whole body was changed into rubber, not an element but still a substance.

    So if his whole body became an entirely different substance isn't he halfway between a Paramecia and a Logia fruit? All our other Paramecia users didn't have their entire body become a substance. They just had a change to the attributes of their bodies. And obviously Logia doesn't have to be primary elements like Fire and Ice and Lightning and so on. Because we have a Smoke user and a Sand user, neither of which fit into that category.

    Regarding the first question I have another; where is it said that Luffy ate a Paramecia fruit? Could I get a link to that?
    Dear cousin choppitychop89, you were a good relative, though I hardly knew ye.

  2. #2
    shautieh's Avatar
    shautieh is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Skipea
    Posts
    5,340

    Default

    i'd say that luffy's fruit is not logia because he can't "divide" himself in a volatile substance without shape.... even if he can stretch, his body stay one and the same....

    even more important : if he is cut, he loses his arm/leg etc. => he cannot reconstruct himself as a logia user could... (i'm assuming, because he has not been choped off yet )

    but overall, it's true that his fruit is nearer logia than most of the others paramecia, although i think he is paramecia ^^" (i don't remember that being said in the manga ever )

  3. #3
    ns8730 is offline Senior Member Well Known
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    261

    Default

    well... concerning the 1st question. i think this was probably something oda didn't think about thoroughly when he 1st made the 3 categories. i dunno if u can call it a plot-hole but i choose not 2. we all know one piece doesn't need 2 follow the laws of science, so classifying elements, substances, their properties n whatnot weren't any of oda's concerns i guess. plus, if the logia fruit only had classical elements, there wouldn't b that many logia fruits. from this i guess u can bring up another query; r we talking about chemical elements as well or just what is actually known as classical elements? chemical elements r of course what we all studied in highschool, which would mean there is a coppercopper/doudou fruit or something. on the other hand that wouldn't make sense cos that'd allow the existence of some...magnesium fruit?

    i suppose that means oda only referred 2 the generic elements, or classical elements taken from ancient philosophies n beliefs which were used 2 explain patterns of nature, astrology, n well...science in general in olden times. thus we're here thinking of earth, fire, wind, water (captain planet theme song again comes in2 my head) as the PRIMARY elements. then again, that's only in the western world, in the east more elements existed like wood n metal. i'm no expert tho. the point is (if i haven't lost u or lost myself already) with so many things 2 consider, oda is but a humble mangaka, therefore we dunno if he had hidden intentions or something when classifying which fruit gives what power under what classification or if it was just 2 complicated. i dunno if any of that made any sense, bare with me i haven't had lunch 2day...

    as 4 the 2nd question, i really dun think i can b bothered rereading 399 chapters looking 4 references so i'll depend on what little memory my mind has. i dun think it was ever mentioned that luffy was a paramecia type by any1, the 1st time the 3 types of devil fruits were mentioned was with either chess or the other guy on drum island i think.
    it's when they were fighting chopper n 1 of the guys taunt by saying he knows all of chopper's ability, n explains that the 3 types of fruits, n that he knew chopper was a zoan. i dunno if he did mention luffy being a paramecia type as well, but if he did then i guess that means this whole time, luffy being classified as a paramecia type was just what his past enemies have thought. could leave an opening in the end where some devil fruit professor comes up n says "paramecia? heavens no! the gomu gomu is a logia type, the strongest of them all"

    EDIT: ah, i 4got 2 mention, but reading shautieh's post is the main answer. i guess in the big picture, what oda will classify as a logia fruit r also substances without a fixed shape.
    Last edited by ns8730; 02-13-2006 at 07:28 AM.

  4. #4
    crow-kun is offline Senior Member Well Known
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    the place between heaven and hell
    Posts
    281

    Default

    I think luffy's fruit is a paramecia. Because Mr 1 has a paramecia thats changes his body into steel blades. So it is sort of like the same thing.
    Last edited by crow-kun; 02-13-2006 at 07:56 AM.

  5. #5
    Cold-NiTe's Avatar
    Cold-NiTe is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dallas, Tx, US
    Posts
    3,872

    Default

    Regarding Shautieh's point, as far as we know Luffy can't divide himself or reconstruct his body, which like you pointed out, is definitely something all the logia users seem to be able to do. Crocodile literally does it in the manga, as does Enel. Aokiji does it during his skirmish with the Straw Hats on Ring Island, in which he truly showed how badass he was by reconstructing himself even as he broke down and then catching (zoro's?) head in his arm and slamming him down. So yeah, I agree that unless he suddenly learns he can do it and never knew he could until then, he's definitely not a true Logia user.

    About what ns8730 said, yeah, I was thinking Greek "Classical" Elements too. I had forgotten the term actually, thanks. And yeah, it's sort of an expanded list in the East, not just the Greek 4; Fire/Wind/Water/Earth, but also many others. So my hope was that Oda may have expanded it, since he added Sand/Cloud/Ice etc, perhaps he could stretch it further and add something like Rubber. It certainly fits the idea that Luffy is made entirely of this stuff, which is one "Principle of Logia".

    And finally, crow-kun brought up something that had originally concerned me too. Mr. 1's ability, the way he turned his body into steel blades. But that's just the thing, it's similar, very similar, but perhaps not basic enough? His partner turned herself into spikes, which is a fundamental change to her body but not to the substance that makes up her body, branding her as Paramecia. Daz Bonez (Mr. 1's real name I think?) was halfway between that and what Luffy is. If his ability had been that he became steel, then he'd be about where Luffy is.

    So if I were to create a sort of scale between Paramecia and Logia, I could do it like this:

    Paramecia------------------------------------------------Logia
    [-------------------------------------------------------------]
    B------M-------D----------------L----------------------------E

    L = Luffy
    D = Daz Bonez (Mr. 1)
    M = Miss Doublefinger (Mr. 1's Partner)
    B = Buggy
    E = Enel
    Dear cousin choppitychop89, you were a good relative, though I hardly knew ye.

  6. #6
    ajp12 is offline Junior Member Newbie
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Logia users can reassemble their bodies from their elements when transformed or damaged, apparently without long-term consequences or even the sensation of pain. Gomu Gomu is definitely not a Logia fruit.

  7. #7
    tailsnake is offline Senior Member Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Inside Your Head
    Posts
    212

    Default

    I think it's the definations we're working under that's causing these problems:

    Paramecia: A fruit that changes the construction of the users body and effects the way they can control it.

    Zoan: A fruit that creates a hybridization between the species that the user is originally and the species that the fruit specifies; they gain 3 basic forms that include the creature's original form, the creature's half-original half-"fruit based" species form, and the creature's full "fruit based" form.

    Logia: A fruit that gives the user compete control of one substance whether external or internal. The user has the ability to change thier body into this substance with no evidence of long-term damage.


    Using these definations, Luffy would clearly fall under Paramecia. I'm not completely sure what her name is but there's this marine officer nicknamed the black cage, where exactly would she stand?

  8. #8
    Cold-NiTe's Avatar
    Cold-NiTe is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dallas, Tx, US
    Posts
    3,872

    Default

    Hina the Black Cage? She ate Ori Ori fruit, which is Cage Cage fruit basically. She'd have to be Paramecia too.

    You're right, it's probably the definitions that are causing the most trouble in all this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajp12
    Logia users can reassemble their bodies from their elements when transformed or damaged, apparently without long-term consequences or even the sensation of pain. Gomu Gomu is definitely not a Logia fruit.
    It should be noted here that I also don't think that the Gomu Gomu Fruit is a Logia Fruit. My theory is that it's halfway between, and my theory goes on to say that there isn't as much of a wall between Paramecia and Logia as there is between Zoan and the other two fruits. My hypothesis is that there's a sort of scale, like the proxy one I created earlier, that can judge how close a paramecia fruit is to logia status.
    Dear cousin choppitychop89, you were a good relative, though I hardly knew ye.

  9. #9
    shautieh's Avatar
    shautieh is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Skipea
    Posts
    5,340

    Default

    Mr 3 creates wax, he doesn't turn into it.... so he must be paramecia...
    same for hina, she can create cages > paramecia

  10. #10
    bakaes is offline Junior Member Newbie
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2

    Talking

    it could be that luffy actually ate 2 fruits!! hence the difficulty in classifying his powers.

    im probably wrong...but it just seems odd to me that the mangaka would mention the consequences of eating more than one fruit right now in this arc after so long.

    im pretty sure luffy ate more than one fruit tho...maybe thats the cause of the Gear Second fiasco!

 

 
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
vBulletin Skin by: ForumThemes.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0
Copyright © 2014 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162