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Thread: Latest Manga Discussion [Scanlated AND Raw]

  1. #7801
    Skrymir is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Okay. I see we're having some sort of misunderstanding. We seem to have different understanding of the word "logic" (and not as an insult, but I also have difficulty understanding your grammar structure).

    So first, you say I have a logical flaw in my argument. I can accept that. However, I wouldn't call it a logical flaw if I simply failed to prove my argument to you. That's a failure to prove a point, completely different from a logical error. My argument for Ace's escape is that the WG was handicapped by wanting to make a grand message. The moment they got rid of the idea of making a message, they were all for killing Ace asap. If you still don't see how I got from point A to point B, then I don't know how else to explain it.

    Looking at how you summarized my argument. I don't see my argument at all. For point 3, I didn't say that time would be best, just that time is needed to prepare for a grand statement. The conclusion is also different compared to what I stated. My conclusion is that WG wanted to make a grand message to weaken pirates and strengthen the marines.

    Now, onto continuing this discussion. I fail to understand your logic (maybe you'll prefer to use another word here) as to B. Actually, I do understand your logic, just not in the form of the earlier "logic" which you claim I have errored in.

    In proof B, I don't see the need in "1 and 2" at all. I mean, WG killing Ace right away is proof enough that WG really wants Ace dead. In fact, it goes back to your earlier point about "logic" failure. You assume that if Ace was killed right away, WG therefore really wants Ace dead. The conclusion is pretty much just a restatement of the final point.

    As for proof C, I accept whole heartedly. The conclusion is a statement that is led by assumptions based on the points listed before it. Logical, since it went from the first point to the last and made a valid interpretation of events.

    Oh, side note. My definition of logic: A reasonable conclusion drawn upon known facts.
    Another side note: Blackbeard wasn't hired to capture Ace. He was hired AFTER capturing Ace, and Blackbeard's original goal was to capture Luffy. The fact that Ace was captured by Blackbeard was purely coincidental and probably fate.

    And please sir, don't assume I don't understand logic. That's an illogical assumption on your own part. I feel like throwing an additional ad hominem here in retaliation, but meh.

    And to keep this board civil, please read and review before posting as I've done. The tone of this topic is getting out of hand and I myself came close to having a rather mean tone myself. I'm not saying you are wrong or illogical (I do still think your tone appears defensive, but that's my stupid english critic side annoying myself) but please keep this civil

    If you still don't understand the logic of my argument. I'd be glad to try to put it in the same format as you've done your proofs.

    Good Times

  2. #7802
    chuckiechuck is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Forget my grammar for sec. this aint English course. Well, you see how ppl write in short hand and stuff online dont ya. It is not Logic Course either, but since we are trying to make sense of the story here, logic is of the essence.

    Moving on. Pal, it was never about a partuclar proof, or your particular proof. I did make some direct statements about what you say. Otherwise, it for everyone in general. So no, I didnt say you dont understand logic. But I do point out some inconsistencies.

    You mistake my so called "Proofs" in the lesson as to summarize yours. Not at all. I just make them up, and relating it a bit to the story, not 100%, but I guess that is no good. I should just use something unrelated, to show when an argument is good, which is also logically consistent. You are right, some statements in the proof aint required, which is ok, so long as they dont contradict each other.

    So what strike me most is when you say this: "However, I wouldn't call it a logical flaw if I simply failed to prove my argument to you". Pal, when you fail to prove, IT IS because you made a logical error, or you got your facts wrong, leading to a wrong conclusion. Did you get some fact wrong? Now, I dont care whether you did anything so far ok.

    My goal, as restating for the 5th, maybe, and the last time: is to provide the folks who have issue with Ace getting away the reason why. Which I did; you, Skymir did; and someone else did. So why can't you guys let this go? But your problem is to stress how KILLLING ACE is the ONLY objective. If you dont mean to say that, then fine! Else, I cant help you without insulting you! Sorry.

    See! I didnt have to insult you. But here you are making this kinda statement: "logic: A reasonable conclusion drawn upon known facts" In English, this sounds great! But why not try looking up the dictionary for a defition. You know forget that, if you know logic, you would rather say: logic - the connection among a set of statements, if taken to be true, will make the conclusion true. Notice, logic doesnt require known facts at all! SEE! this is why I recommend a logic course, whatever your major of study is. But be ready to struggle a bit!

    Here is another random example:

    ONLY man has wings.
    IF monkey has wings.
    Then monkey is man. [Notice this is a sound argument, which hardly rely on known facts at all.]

    Man can walk.
    Monkey can walk.
    Then, Monkey is man [Bad argument, although the statements are true. you know its bad because the conclusion is false. So what is the logical flaw? If you claim you know logic, then I dont have to explain.]
    Last edited by chuckiechuck; 01-31-2010 at 01:48 AM.
    Killing time while waiting for the next chapter. OnePiece, that is.

  3. #7803
    Heartlessfang is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    ^....it would be nice if you guys posted links to support your points better, rather than just typing. As a person who reads these posts out of interest/boredom, I look for supported points with evidence, rather than conjecture.....aw well.lets hope for an epic death scene next week.

    "You have other hearts trapped within you as well, dont you?"
    "You're that guy from last time! What are you talking about?!"
    "The other Hearts within you."
    "Hearts trapped within me....?"

  4. #7804
    chuckiechuck is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    There is nothing to post, man. It's not even anything really problematic. But its amazing how ppl fail to see things for what it is. I'm just going through the trouble because it's all the same if I dont ---> meaning I'm that chilled!
    Killing time while waiting for the next chapter. OnePiece, that is.

  5. #7805
    Skrymir is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Sigh, I'm getting tired of stressing how I didn't think you understood my conclusion. Yet you still insist that you've understood my point without even re-asking what my point was.

    Topic of logic, grammar, and other stuff would be pm'ed to you since we're getting off topic.

    I'll just copy your format for proofs and hopefully, you'll understand where I'm standing.

    1. Killing Ace will help make a message to the world. (Yep, no arguments here, I did say that.) Sorry, no link since this is a fact based on history of criminal punishment.
    2.* Making a message requires time to prepare the media and probable chance of interference. I said nothing about having a specific time and place.
    3. WG only prepared for the appearance of Whitebeard; Luffy's appearance was a major shock. Linked
    4. Since the pirates were soon obtaining the upper hand, so the message was soon going to be "Pirates can retaliate against the Marines." So they got rid of all cameras to stop any possible messages. Linked As you can see, the marines made sure to stop the media before putting up a defensive stance against the pirates.
    5. Sengoku's "trump card" was to kill Ace before scheduled time. (Don't think I need to link this, a rather memorable moment)
    Conclusion: With these facts, I therefore "assume killing Ace is WG's main [objective]." (I copy and pasted this from you. I don't see why you suddenly changed your stance to saying I believe it was WG's ONLY goal.) I have concluded nothing else. You're free to argue that there are additional objectives, and I'll agree with you. I never said there aren't OTHER goals, but if you expect me to change my opinion of the MAIN objective, then you'll have to provide a valid argument (which I have yet to read).

    (If you're wondering why I chose to use "objectives" instead of "goals", goals change in battle on the fly. It can change from "force the enemy to surrender" to "defend your battle station" in an instant. Objectives on the other hand normally remain constant. For the Marines in this case, their goal kept switching from "killing the pirates" to "stand your ground and defend", but their objective was always "kill Ace". This is my opinion on the matter, feel free to counter-argue it.

    The only time I mentioned Whitebeard in terms of the Marine's objectives was when people started arguing how he was the main objective: to trap Whitebeard and kill him. To this, I counter argued how Whitebeard always had an easy escape path. The second moby dick was still underwater and later still remained operational. In fact, Whitebeard still has the option to leave with the other pirates right now.

    Now, if you want say there are other goals/objectives such as "capture a majority of the Whitebeard Pirates" or "kill Whitebeard as a bonus", I'll smile and agree happily. However, all I've gotten so far was "you're wrong because you're wrong."

    You did say once how Ace had gotten free because WG also wanted to kill Whitebeard. Now, I'll quote myself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Skrymir View Post
    As for proof C, I accept whole heartedly. The conclusion is a statement that is led by assumptions based on the points listed before it. Logical, since it went from the first point to the last and made a valid interpretation of events.
    Oh gee, it looks like I actually ACCEPTED your argument of the fact that there might be other objectives. Way to read my stuff and say the otherwise, your reading comprehension astounds me. Since you DID get my conclusion wrong and apologized ever so kindly. You're forgiven

    Prove to me you've actually read my post, then I'll respond kindly.
    Last edited by Skrymir; 01-31-2010 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Added linkers

    Good Times

  6. #7806
    MadDogMike is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Neither of you can prove anything. You're both just making educated guesses. It's obvious neither of you can change the other's opinion, so why don't you just wait a few more chapters and see whether this war was declared a win or a loss by the marines? That should tell you whether Whitebeard was the true target or not.

  7. #7807
    Skrymir is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Well, actually. We can prove things. However, our conclusions made from the proof aren't solid is all. I can give "proof" that I'm a girl, but that doesn't make the conclusion true.

    But yeah, everything's nothing more than guesswork. Although, in my opinion, if Ace doesn't give himself up as well and gets away from Marie Joa, it is a definite win for the pirates. Of course, the WG could always cut their loss of influence by telling the media and the world that Whitebeard was the target all along.

    Good Times

  8. #7808
    MadDogMike is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    If you're not a girl, you can't prove that you're a girl... someone might come to the conclusion that you're a girl based on the forum name you picked, your avatar, the way you type, but they wouldn't be proving anything.

    Basically, I don't think we have enough solid evidence just yet to say for sure that either of you are correct. Both of you present good arguments (when you're not picking on grammar, spelling or "logical flaws"), but I think in reality the truth lies somewhere in between your two points of view.

  9. #7809
    Skrymir is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Heh, my previous statement was mostly just pointing out that there's a difference between a "fact' and a "truth". Proof is nothing more than evidence used to argue the validity of a "fact", not the truth. A fact can be anything, the truth is... well.. something I don't want to spend 5 years writing a philosophical paper on.

    Now ain't that a fact? =P

    Good Times

  10. #7810
    MadDogMike is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Ok, let me word my last post differently. You can make a statement that says "if a human has only female reproductive organs, then that human is female". That statement can be demonstrated to be true for all humans, therefore it's called a "proof". Go ahead and apply this proof to yourself and there can only be one result, you cannot prove that you are a female.

    Now everyone drop the conceited mathematical bullcrap, it doesn't belong in a manga discussion!

    Have a nice day.

 

 

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