Well that's nice, I created this thread mainly to create some discussion. When are you planning on starting?
Originally Posted by black flash
How rude! I should slap your shit for such an insulting accusation, moderator or not! I wrote this, based on my research, with assistance from me! Seriously, of all the things you could have said, that really pisses me off!
Did you actual write this or copy it from somewhere else?
Oh good, so what you're saying is that I'm completely correct, yes?
Kishi has admitted before that he knew how he wanted to end the manga but never knew how he was gonna get there, he has also said in many interviews that the editors ask for more when it comes to the story and certain characters, making him divert from his original story.
Whatever. The fucknut with the weird mask. What with the Christmas break I'd kind of lost track of recent events apart from the big fight in the most recent chapters and we've been referring to Sir Swirlyface as "Madara" for so long that the fact that he's not the "real" Madara just slipped my mind. He's still either a damn Uchiha or has a fetish for nicking peoples' eyeballs, so my point still stands. If anything, the reveal that he apparently hasn't been Madara all along ("WHAT A TWEEST!") only supports my theory that Kishimoto is basically making it all up as he goes along.
You believe Madara to be the main antagonist of the manga.......interesting.
They have? News to me. So sorry to waste space on your forum that could be more productively spent on more rivetingly interesting 'Naruto chapter XXX' threads.
You have a couple valid points but most if not all have been discuss before in great detail and most of the topics have been put to rest because there is evidence to back them up either in the manga or in interviews.
It's a man or woman who flies a plane, right?
You do know what a pilot is right?
See, the problem we have here is that you've assumed I'm an idiot, so you haven't given anything I've said due consideration. You even started by admitting you hadn't read the whole thing. Of COURSE I know what a pilot is. My point was "THINGS CHANGE".
I suppose it's possible he wasn't originally created as the series' ULTIMATE villain, but he was clearly meant to do more than he ended up doing. How do I know that? Because as I pointed out, the end he came to was sad and pathetic for a villain who had been as well-crafted as him. To use Troper parlance again he had a bridge dropped on him to get him out of the way. Let's be honest here, how many members of Akatsuki have been nearly as creepy, menacing, stylish and frankly awesome as Orochimaru (or at least, as Orochimaru before he was made into the Uchihas' bitch)? Some have had their moments (Sasori was as creepy as FUCK, Pain was certainly creative and interesting even though he turned out to be a melodramatic emo bitch to rival Sasuke) but they just don't live up to the sense of menace the snake lord imbued the series with from his first appearence up to the start of the time skip. Hell, even his one moment of post-timeskip glory when he fought 4-tails Naruto at the Tenchi Bridge was in my mind one of the best scenes in the series. And Kishimoto hasn't been really "killing off the older generation"- he killed Jiraiya (and Asuma who, let's face it, was so irrelevant that Naruto had to go learn about wind chakra from him immediately before his death just so readers would give a damn about him) then wimped out on killing anyone else when he had Pain play Jesus to bring back everyone he'd (rather impressively) killed at the end of his arc.
Originally Posted by Yazen
They could be explained away like that and that might even be Kishimoto's explaination if asked about it- but that's trying too hard, when the more likely probability is I'm right. Gaara was never meant to be a jinchuuriki because when his character was created jinchuuriki didn't exist. Use Occam's Razor. Simplest is bestest. I plotted out the chain of thought that led to the creation of the bijuu, the jinchuuriki and the retcon of Gaara and Shukaku into one:
The Shukaku's differences could also be explained away as different sealing techniques. They sealed the beast in a way that it would always protect Gaara but they didn't do it properly (it was a failure) and it caused him to force himself to stay awake.
1) With the new antagonists being intent on capturing Naruto for the power of the Kyuubi, something more is needed. Obviously they can't capture Naruto or the series would come to its climax WAY too soon. Nor can they constantly try to capture him and fail, or that would make them pretty pathetic antagonists. So what the story needs is more characters like Naruto to take the fall for him instead, making the new villains intimidating and letting them progress with their plans without playing merry hell with the plot.
2) The obvious choice is more people with demons sealed inside of them. Since Naruto is the protagonist, and since he's defined as the "underdog ninja with the secret unmatched power inside of him", making him the underdog among his demon-bearing peers would be redundant- the Kyuubi HAS to be the most powerful beast of all, or it undercuts the achievement of the 4th Hokage sealing it inside Naruto in the first place.
3) Since the Kyuubi is the most powerful of these creatures and it's a nine-tailed kitsune, it would seem to make sense to rank these creatures by their number of tails. (In Japanese myth, fox spirits gain more tails as they age and become more powerful, up to a maximum of nine.) So maybe it would work to have a number of other ninja holding younger, less powerful kitsune with fewer tails?
4) Unfortunately, at this point Gaara becomes a liability from a plot perspective. If there's a shadowy organisation wanting the power of these kitsune, why would they overlook Gaara who ALSO has an immensely powerful monster inside of him, just, y'know, a different one? It would seem weird if there are a number of demon-ninja around but also something so similar- kind of like if they'd introduced an Evangelion into a Gundam series.
5) So why not change things so the Shukaku of the Sand is ALSO a creature like the Kyuubi? Rather than make all the other Akatsuki-fodder jinchuuriki the bearers of lesser kitsune, make an entire SERIES of tailed beasts. After all, "having a tail/s" is pretty much the only thing Shukaku and Kyuubi really have in common apart from living inside a young boy ninja. So make Shukaku the "one-tailed beast" (because he only has one tail, since "number of tails" really wasn't a consideration when Gaara and Shukaku were being designed) and Kyuubi the most powerful of a series of nine.
The thing with this is, when you look on the Naruto/Gaara battle in hindsight, Gaara ends up being the bearer of the weakest of the bijuu, but slaps Naruto around like a bitch. Introducing a power hierarchy wouldn't have been that bad an idea, but putting Gaara at the bottom of it proves that it wasn't planned that way. Gaara was meant to be a parallel character to Naruto, his shadowy EQUAL. If Kishimoto had planned for Gaara to be a jinchuuriki from the very beginning, don't you think he would have made the Shukaku a bit higher up the list- maybe the 5- or 6-tailed beast? The really sad thing is that the whole concept would have worked if Kishimoto had just dropped the whole "tails" system and made it a variety of different mystical beasts with the Kyuubi as the most powerful just because it is (in Japanese myth, kitsune are supposed to be INCREDIBLY powerful once they reach 9 tails). He didn't have to make them all more-or-less identical either, so Shukaku would have fit in much better. Keep the concept of jinchuuriki, a series of powerful animal demons sealed in human hosts, but the whole "bijuu" thing accidentally gave the retcon away.
It was actually from my reasoning about the jinchuuriki retcon that I developed my theory about Akatsuki and guy-who-is-apparently-not-Uchiha-Madara being made up later on. I'd actually reasoned out the jinchuuriki retcon a long time ago, but not too long ago I was plotting out the plot of a Naruto fanfic I'm currently writing. It's a For Want of a Nail fic where things have diverged from the original plot rather radically around about the time of the Chuunin Exam and I was struggling with how I'd reconcile the new plot direction with upcoming events in canon- how Akatsuki would act in light of what had happened, how Naruto would develop as a jinchuuriki etc etc. It was just after I'd plotted an alternate battle between Naruto and Gaara as being between "two jinchuuriki" that the realisation struck me: "Hang on- Kishimoto never initially planned Gaara to even be a jinchuuriki, or for the bijuu to even exist, so does that mean he's been making up th entire plot as he goes along?" It was a great relief to me too, since when I reasoned it that far I realised I had absolutely NO obligation to go along with the established canon in my fic beyond a certain point. I'm going to be using Akatsuki and probably some other characters, but NO bijuu and NO stupid "moon's eye plan"- their interest in Naruto will be for a totally different reason.
Anyway, that's the story of how I came up with these theories. In all honestly I'm a lot more sure of the bijuu retcon- my supposition that Akatsuki and "one-eyed doofus" were created out of thin air is mainly speculation, although I'd still say the likelihood is pretty high.