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  1. #41
    Jahnin is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Bad manipulation, please delete this

  2. #42
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Why do people assume ninja graves are unguarded solely because there isn't any visible guard in every panel showing someone paying respects to the dead? That's no logical grounds for such an assumption. Nor are kekkei genkai the only secrets that can be found from ninja bodies, else Kakashi wouldn't wonder about Zabuza.

    Unless the 'ninja bodies' thing was just some paranoia exclusive to Kakashi, we can safely say that ninja graveyards would be guarded, Edo Tensei or no Edo Tensei. And ninja guards don't have to sit on a chair next to each grave to do their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Genjutsu, bunshin, summoning.
    All of which ninjas have methods to detect and defend against. Else any genin could do any stealth mission with a henge no jutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Good manipulator, and good at leaving no evidence behind.
    You mean like the Anbu corpses in Sasuke's hospital room? Or Orochimaru's labs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Doesn't matter how many time you say it, it's a false statement.
    Oro didn't get CAUGHT... He REVEALED himself while taking the 3rd in custody. There is a (big) difference.
    Same for the sound...
    Kabuto isn't Orochimaru, and absorbing his body isn't going to make him equally proficient at everything. He's been caught before, and should at the least be detected afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Lol I just wrote that it's notnecessary to guard them, if the information is permanently sealed. Is the seal is done, the body is useless. Neji's father body has been handed over without the enemy village ever finding out how to take byakugan for themselves.
    I even gave that example !
    Hyuuga Hizashi was handed over to defuse tensions with the Cloud. Considering their main objective of getting the Byakugan was thwarted, it was an acceptable compromise. But that doesn't make the value of protecting the secrets hidden in ninja corpses any less.

    Do you really think Kakashi was bluffing when he though it unusual to not destroy Zabuza's corpse simply because it didn't have a kekkei genkai?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Do you really think kabuto would dig up and leave a hole in place ? give the guy some credits...
    Give the ninjas some credit. They're trained to see things ordinary people would miss. You think the Raikage wouldn't notice something was disturbed while visiting his father's grave? Or Shikamaru? Or Kurenai? Or Gaara and the Sand Siblings? Or Chiyo's friend? And so on....

    Quote Originally Posted by krazykwasi View Post
    I will inteject on that behalf.

    No I do not think ninja give the dead bodies special treatment at all to be perfectly honest. When the 3rd Hokage died he got a regular ole funeral and a regular old tomb/grave like the rest. From the glimpses we've seen of people like Shikamaru, Kakashi and others visiting grave sites to moarn over their dead comrades the cemetry is a desolate place with tombs and graves, thats it, so I dont think they have round the clock guard duties for their dead (at least Konoha). Now other stricker villages might have a different process but as far as we know when their ninja died they just bury them (which I think is stupid since they should be cremating their dead in the first place), hold a ceremony and move on with their lives. Judging from the way Kanguro talked about Edo Tensei its obvious that he, and the younger ninja taking part in the war, had no clue what it was and as a matter of fact since its a forbidden technique only a select old few would know about it versus the general public at large so in their mind they dont even consider the far-fetched possibily of someone wanting to steal a corpse. And not to mention Kabuto doesn't come off like a sloppy frankenstein who will dig up a grave and leave it dug open with an open coffin in plain few for people to know that someone stole a corpse. He is more slick than that so he'll get what he needs and cover his tracks. The last thing he would want is for people being suspiscious that there is a ninja grave robber on the loose.

    Yes, I know Kabuto would re-fill the graves. And I also know ninjas are trained to detect minute changes. That's I said give them credit. Even if Kabuto miraculously got away without an intrusion being detected by any of the villages, the people visiting the graves would know something had been disturbed.
    Last edited by The Witcher; 12-15-2010 at 10:11 AM.
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  3. #43
    Jahnin is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Witcher View Post
    Why do people assume ninja graves are unguarded solely because there isn't any visible guard in every panel showing someone paying respects to the dead? That's no logical grounds for such an assumption. Nor are kekkei genkai the only secrets that can be found from ninja bodies, else Kakashi wouldn't wonder about Zabuza.
    Unless the 'ninja bodies' thing was just some paranoia exclusive to Kakashi, we can safely say that ninja graveyards would be guarded, Edo Tensei or no Edo Tensei. And ninja guards don't have to sit on a chair next to each grave to do their job.
    We just gave you reasons that would make that gard not all that necessary. Even if their is one, we can assume, with akatsuki killing kage (gaara) and Jinchuuriki, that the security will be dispatched to place more critical. Like, protecting these guys, searching info, patrols.

    All of which ninjas have methods to detect and defend against. Else any genin could do any stealth mission with a henge no jutsu.
    Well I don't know, but that's how Jiraya got in pain's village. And he fooled the Ninjas there. to be detected by god pain only and his rain jutsu.That's how oro impersonated the kazekage.


    Kabuto isn't Orochimaru, and absorbing his body isn't going to make him equally proficient at everything. He's been caught before, and should at the least be detected afterwards.
    Kabuto leaving evidence

    Hyuuga Hizashi was handed over to defuse tensions with the Cloud. Considering their main objective of getting the Byakugan was thwarted, it was an acceptable compromise. But that doesn't make the value of protecting the secrets hidden in ninja corpses any less.

    Do you really think Kakashi was bluffing when he though it unusual to not destroy Zabuza's corpse simply because it didn't have a kekkei genkai?
    Destroying or sealing it. Much more easy to destroy a missing nin body anyway.
    The body,of Hizashi was handed after making sure that no secret would come out. It's possible to do it then. The example I gave was a kekei genkai, but that concern any information/ability the body posses..

    Give the ninjas some credit. They're trained to see things ordinary people would miss. You think the Raikage wouldn't notice something was disturbed while visiting his brother's grave? Or Shikamaru? Or Kurenai? Or Gaara and the Sand Siblings? Or Chiyo's friend? And so on....
    Yes, I know Kabuto would re-fill the graves. And I also know ninjas are trained to detect minute changes. That's I said give them credit. Even if Kabuto miraculously got away without an intrusion being detected by any of the villages, the people visiting the graves would know something had been disturbed.
    I suppose ninja would be trained to detect that their kage is another guy, but that happened.

    Kakashi was visiting a monument, not an actual grave. Elite ninja have something else to do than observing the grass on a grave. And the extraction can be done without making a fuss. Just DNA is necessary (weapons, belongins, body parts....). We can suppose that Diggin out corpes did not happen for every edo.
    Last edited by Jahnin; 12-15-2010 at 09:47 AM.

  4. #44
    thirdfang is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    you know guys, I keep on hearing about "oh! Kabuto and Orochimaru aren't good at sneaking around cause they got caught! Ex. manga chapter etc..."

    You do realize that each time they did get caught, they didn't care about being stealthy anymore at the time or were setting their opponents up right?

    Also, Asuma was buried in Konoha's massive graveyard, a public place, accessible by the entire village and not likely to be on the edge of town, most likely guarded by some anbu who know that grave robbers and shinobi bodies should not mix, yet kabuto still got to him.

    As for the Kage's bodies. Orochimaru had been given easy access to the 1st, 2nd and 4th's bodies from DANZO, that is it. I doubt that anyone from the other villages were willing to be that friendly with Kabuto.

    Face it, the glasses boy is just as stealthy and cunning as the original snake himself, if not more.

  5. #45
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Jahnin, I can see nothing I say will convince you. I'll just point out that from Kakashi's statement, ninjas very obviously have other valuable information in their bodies besides Kekkei Genkai(even if it was never elaborated), and that I see absolutely no reason why ninjas would be so cold as to not visit the graves of their loved ones regularly, if they are willing to visit even memorial stones every day.
    Last edited by The Witcher; 12-15-2010 at 10:54 AM.
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  6. #46
    Jahnin is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdfang View Post
    you know guys, I keep on hearing about "oh! Kabuto and Orochimaru aren't good at sneaking around cause they got caught! Ex. manga chapter etc..."

    You do realize that each time they did get caught, they didn't care about being stealthy anymore at the time or were setting their opponents up right?
    That's exactly what I said

    Also, Asuma was buried in Konoha's massive graveyard, a public place, accessible by the entire village and not likely to be on the edge of town, most likely guarded by some anbu who know that grave robbers and shinobi bodies should not mix, yet kabuto still got to him.

    As for the Kage's bodies. Orochimaru had been given easy access to the 1st, 2nd and 4th's bodies from DANZO, that is it. I doubt that anyone from the other villages were willing to be that friendly with Kabuto.

    Face it, the glasses boy is just as stealthy and cunning as the original snake himself, if not more.
    Totally agree with you, that's more or less what I want to point. There is security around, but the main forces is not there. For guys of Kabuto's level, it's not that diificult to go in

    Jahnin, I can see nothing I say will convince you.
    Well, it seem the contrary is also true
    NOt that you didn't convince me, but I see answers for your arguments.

    I'll just point out that from Kakashi's statement, ninjas very obviously have other valuable information in their bodies besides Kekkei Genkai(even if it was never elaborated), and that I see absolutely no reason why ninjas would be so cold as to not visit the graves of their loved ones regularly, if they are willing to visit even memorial stones every day.
    That's why I say that bodies can be sealed. Who know, if shinobi do a little seal before they bury their dead. At least the ones with special bodies. That would mean the bodies in the graves are useless in conventional ways. And avoid the waste of military ressources.
    That's a possibility no?

    Visiting is a thing, guarding is another. If Kabuto do things the good way, they wouldn't notice he did something.

  7. #47
    Urameshi-sama is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Meh, there's no strong case either way. We don't know what villages do with their corpses, and we don't know what inside information and jutsu Kabuto used to infiltrate the village and take DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witcher
    It uses the original's DNA in order to reconstruct their bodies. If Nagato had implanted eyes his DNA would not have the Rinnegan.
    Wrong. Kabuto used the dna to summon the person's soul from the world of the dead, which would have all the kekkei genkai and jutsu they had developed over their lifetime.
    As per his bio, the only villages he worked for are the Leaf and the Sound. After that his cover was blown. But leaving that aside, if can you imagine him walking into the Sarutobi graveyard, digging up Asuma, cutting him up and walking away without the deed ever being found out? And the other villages too.
    You're just proving the point. The bio didn't include half his history. The bio wasn't aware of his spy work with Sasori, and a spy's very job is to profit off secrets.
    Given the implausibilties he's faced in retrieving other corpes that should have been inaccessible to him, I'm surprised this gave him much trouble. He could just send a summon, or a zombie, and so on.
    Seriously, zombie? The point was that the water pressure was so large bodies would get crushed at great depths. Whether the body was living or not, that wouldn't prevent it's destruction, and even if it resurrected, it would just get crushed again. Also, Nagato's chikusho path aside, people's summons are limited.

    You have some angel's expectations of the villages' intelligence & efficacy, and underestimate the intelligence and ability of S-rank ninja who have evaded their village's ANBU for a long time and continued their regular dealings.

    Also, I'd say Kabuto is very underestimated in the manga. He, Itachi, and Tobi are easily the most deceptive characters we've seen in the manga, he was considered a Kakashi-level ninja during the chuunin exams, and he fought Tsunade pretty well until Jiraiya showed up and she spammed souzou saisei. Moreover, his analytical skill creeped out even Orochimaru and has shocked Tobi. And at the moment he seems to have a clear vision of how the ninja war will play out.

    Also, Oro & Kabuto were not discovered during the chuunin exam. Konoha was just on high alert since Oro made it clear that he was watching Sasuke during the exams (he had conversations with Sasuke, Anko, and Kakashi). Sandaime was still surprised when he found that the kazekage was Oro .
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  8. #48
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Well, it seem the contrary is also true
    NOt that you didn't convince me, but I see answers for your arguments.
    The answers are ones that require tremendous suspension of disbelief. 'Quite a stretch' to put it mildly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    That's why I say that bodies can be sealed. Who know, if shinobi do a little seal before they bury their dead. At least the ones with special bodies. That would mean the bodies in the graves are useless in conventional ways. And avoid the waste of military ressources.
    That's a possibility no?
    Then Kakashi would have mentioned it wrt Zabuza. He's not a dunce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Visiting is a thing, guarding is another. If Kabuto do things the good way, they wouldn't notice he did something.
    What 'good way' would fool multiple Kages? Kabuto teh god..
    Last edited by The Witcher; 12-15-2010 at 10:23 PM.
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  9. #49
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama View Post

    Wrong. Kabuto used the dna to summon the person's soul from the world of the dead, which would have all the kekkei genkai and jutsu they had developed over their lifetime.
    So how else do you think he could rebuild bodies exactly as they had been in life? Magic? Souls don't come with free bodies attached. He used the information in their DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama View Post
    You're just proving the point. The bio didn't include half his history. The bio wasn't aware of his spy work with Sasori, and a spy's very job is to profit off secrets.
    Read it. It does mention he was recruited by Sasori.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama View Post
    You have some angel's expectations of the villages' intelligence & efficacy, and underestimate the intelligence and ability of S-rank ninja who have evaded their village's ANBU for a long time and continued their regular dealings.
    Rather it's the opposite: you have a very low opinion of the Five Villages and their security if you think Kabuto could walk inside and do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted with everyone blind of it.

    That's what my problem is with you guys: To make accomodations for Kabuto to do what you want him to do, you're writing off everybody else. The only way Kabuto could do those things is for everyone else to be dumbed down.
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  10. #50
    Jahnin is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    The answers are ones that require tremendous suspension of disbelief. 'Quite a stretch' to put it mildly.

    That's what my problem is with you guys: To make accomodations (....)you're writing off everybody else.
    Wow, You described, in the same post, what you did a few lines earlier...


    I see, it's no use.
    Last edited by Jahnin; 12-16-2010 at 02:02 AM.

 

 
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