Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 34
  1. #21
    DivineVTDragon is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    Posts
    942

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanov_2020 View Post
    @dvtd: why are u putting orochi at the same level of a lowlevel underlings, i may never know. All i know is that orochi was an ex member of akatsuki and if i'm not mistaken he is in their inner circle.
    False. Madara admits over and over again that Oro was cunning enough to know what was going on behind the scenes. That means that he excluded Oro from any plans that he made with "the inner circle."

    In fact, the ONLY people in the circle is Madara, Zetsu, Pain, Konan, and to some extent, Itachi. NO ONE else knew about the real scheme they had behind the scenes. Not Sasori, not Hidan, not Deidara, not Kakuzu, and not even Kisame knew the real goal of Akatuski (lawl, world peace). No one else knew that their clown Tobi was in fact the true leader.

    Another fact, why would Orochimaru bother going after the Sharingan if he knew that the Rinnegan was so close to him? He already had his Shodaime clone, so why didn't he go after Nagato to gain power far above the sharingan? It's most likely that he didn't even know Nagato possessed it. He did however, knew that Madara was alive because of the same reason Jiraiya had suspicions about Madara; they all came from the same village.

  2. #22
    Urameshi-sama is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,172

    Default

    ^Orochimaru's group may have had the best idea of Tobi's plans, but that means nothing about his powers. Ultimately he couldn't even read past the powers of a couple of Uchiha. Moreover, Kabuto's intelligence probably supersedes Oro's so we can't infer that all of Kabuto's knowledge of Tobi's plans are from Oro.

    Also, Jiraiya was suspicious of Madara for the kyuubi attack, not because they were from the same village. How much Oro knew specifically about Madara is very questionable, though it's not surprising that Oro read so much of Akatsuki's actions considering both of them had converging motives.

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineVTDragon View Post
    - You kinda forgot the whole "Byakugan" coming BEFORE the Sharingan. Oh wait... that was Retconned. But wait, the Byakugan household is the oldest and most noble house of Konoha, now it's Senju and Uchiha.
    I looked into that a while back actually, especially when I was trying to figure out whether Madara was actually the founder of the Uchiha clan as Jiraiya claimed (he's not). You have to note the semantics for these kind of claims.

    All that's required for the Hyuuga claim to be true is that the clan existed before the Senju & Uchiha and eventually joined Konoha. All of those conditions are plausible.

    Also, don't forget that both the Senju & Uchiha were just descendent clans from the 2 sons of the 1st Rikudo Sage, so their status as the oldest ninja clans is hardly confirmed. It's possible that there were many other clans spawned from the offspring. In fact, considering the descriptions of the Uzumaki clan and it's attributions in Kohoha, there's a good chance the Uzumaki clan were predecessors to the Senju.

    The Hyuuga/Uchiha predecession was merely a rumor (as Kakashi said). I'm not sure if there's any actual relationship there, but considering the drawings of the Rikudo sage's eyes during Tobi's history lessons, I think the Hyuuga must have been a descendent clan of the Rikudo sage as well since the center of RS's eyes had baguas, and the bagua has been the Hyuuga's clans characteristic symbol through the manga (though this is just speculation).

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineVTDragon
    Sasuke pulling that eagle summon out of his ass... uhh... where was that when he fought Deidara?
    No, the animal a person has a summoning contract with is tied to that person's personality/affinities. The hawk seems to be a typical Uchiha affinity, and Tobi even remarked about whether Sasuke's affinity would be a snake or hawk during the Sasuke/Itachi fight.

    The fact that his summon changed just showed Sasuke's natural affinity after being de-Orochified. The point is his affinity changed, so he never had the ability to summon both types of animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanov_2020 View Post
    i dunno bout this one though.. even madara don't know where the body is.. i think kabuto get dna samples from orochi.. and orochi get them while he still in akatsuki. also answer the question where he get itachi's dna, and prolly the rest of the akatsuki
    Doesn't make sense, since Nagato didn't reveal his body to most of Akatsuki. Most likely, Tobi himself gave Kabuto what he needed of Nagato's remains for ET after recovering the rinnegan.
    --------
    On Edo Tensei, I suggested DNA too in the last chapter discussion thread but we actually don't know what's fully required (it's never been stated in the manga). We know from Oro that the bodies required human sacrifices & clay, and that Oro completed the jutsu from a prototype the 2nd Hokage used. The mysterious part of the jutsu is the soul binding, but we have the least idea of how this works (a kunai with attached seals is involved?).
    ---------
    The only things that have been mentioned that look like plotholes are Oro's conservative use of edo tensei during the Konoha attack (though this may be circumstantial considering Oro fought and was disabled by the 3rd through the entire attack) & the poor kyuubi ying/yang description.

    The other stuff mentioned really just falls under the category of incomplete information, and some of that just means foreshadowing for future explanation & events, and some are just trivial (seriously, Naruto's idiocy taken seriously?).

    I really need to learn to post more concisely again >_>
    Stolen Sig Count: 26

  3. #23
    MadDogMike is offline Senior Member Always Around
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama View Post
    No, the animal a person has a summoning contract with is tied to that person's personality/affinities. The hawk seems to be a typical Uchiha affinity, and Tobi even remarked about whether Sasuke's affinity would be a snake or hawk during the Sasuke/Itachi fight.

    The fact that his summon changed just showed Sasuke's natural affinity after being de-Orochified. The point is his affinity changed, so he never had the ability to summon both types of animals.
    I don't agree with this at all. When Naruto made a summoning contract, that scroll he put his signature and hand-print in was specifically for toads. It had the names of other people who had made contracts with the toads in it.

    Also, we've seen people who could summon multiple different types of animals (Pain is the main one that springs to mind), so they must have made separate contracts and be able to choose the exact type of animal they want at a specific time.

    I'm going to stick with the simple explanation implied by the manga, that a ninja needs to make a contract with a specific animal to be able to summon that animal.

  4. #24
    Urameshi-sama is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,172

    Default

    ^You could be right, but I'm skeptical since it raises a bunch of unresolved problems. That was an explanation given during the Jiraiya Gaiden anime episode (127-128 of shippuuden) by Hiruzen that seemed canonical. I don't think it's been mentioned in the manga, but I think its implicitly correct.

    If all that was needed was a contract, there's no good explanation for why Kabuto had to use Oro's blood for the Manda summon during the Sannin fight instead of already having a contract with the snakes himself. Also, if the contract was the only necessity, practically every ninja in a village should have pooled contracts with many animals instead of the one-to-one correspondance that's been seen.

    Pain is hardly a standard for anything considering all his characteristic abilities are exceptional, and even his summoning procedure didn't need the blood seal typically required before the jutsu.

    Moreover, the model more sensibly explains why everyone aside from Jiraiya/Minato/Naruto who have used summons have had unique ones, and even in their case we know Jiraiya & Naruto had similar personalities.

    Also, kuchiyose no jutsu has the same general execution pattern for all summons- blood, the same 5 seals, chakra release. In the context of that kind of jutsu, specifying which animal you planned to summon would be a significant feature totally overlooked by the manga.

    Also, having multiple summon contracts violates the very terms of a contract with any animal. A contract is an agreement of allegiance between species (Jiraiya says this to Naruto). Having multiple contracts would allow the user to potentially have a conflict among warring species, such as the species in the Sannin deadlock. Moreover, the reverse problem would also be possible-a species could ally with many people of different factions.
    The fact that we've seen so many strong clan/village & animal affiliations (Toads & Konoha, Aburame & Bugs, Inuzuka & Dogs) really makes it hard to believe that such allegiances are that loose.

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kuchiyose
    Stolen Sig Count: 26

  5. #25
    DivineVTDragon is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Fremont, Ca
    Posts
    942

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama View Post
    ^Orochimaru's group may have had the best idea of Tobi's plans, but that means nothing about his powers. Ultimately he couldn't even read past the powers of a couple of Uchiha. Moreover, Kabuto's intelligence probably supersedes Oro's so we can't infer that all of Kabuto's knowledge of Tobi's plans are from Oro.

    Also, Jiraiya was suspicious of Madara for the kyuubi attack, not because they were from the same village. How much Oro knew specifically about Madara is very questionable, though it's not surprising that Oro read so much of Akatsuki's actions considering both of them had converging motives.
    That makes no sense at all. Tobi/Madara's plans were to RULE THE NINJA WORLD with the Moon's Eye Plan, that already implies that his strength should be enough to battle the entire ninja world.

    Had Madara been from another village it's very certain that Jiraiya would not have said "my hunch is Madara." Jiraiya knew of the founding his predecessors and the founding generations and knew what they were capable of. Would the same be said be true if he knew about the Mist Village? No.


    Oro's plans and Madara's plans were two separate matters. Oro wanted to learn every single Jutsu and live forever, Madara just wants to shape the world into whatever he deems fit. How is any of that converging?

    I looked into that a while back actually, especially when I was trying to figure out whether Madara was actually the founder of the Uchiha clan as Jiraiya claimed (he's not). You have to note the semantics for these kind of claims.

    All that's required for the Hyuuga claim to be true is that the clan existed before the Senju & Uchiha and eventually joined Konoha. All of those conditions are plausible.

    Also, don't forget that both the Senju & Uchiha were just descendent clans from the 2 sons of the 1st Rikudo Sage, so their status as the oldest ninja clans is hardly confirmed. It's possible that there were many other clans spawned from the offspring. In fact, considering the descriptions of the Uzumaki clan and it's attributions in Kohoha, there's a good chance the Uzumaki clan were predecessors to the Senju.
    - I never stated that Madara was the founder. You're also gonna have to look back into it further.
    - Konoha was created when the union of Senju and Uchiha formed and made a pact with the Land of Fire.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/6.html

    So how was the Hyuuga there before Konoha even existed? Magic?

    - The sage was the first known wielder of Jutsu and ninja techniques, so before the sage there was no real ninja families, just endless fighting like Jiraiya stated. After the sage spreaded ninjutsu around, the world of ninja existed. As you stated, there isn't any confirmation about the Uchiha or Senju being the first, just that they were decendants of the two sons. However, the fact that their bloodlines were passed and didn't dilute into something different tells us that they have a pureblood connection to the two sons. The Byakugan however, has no such connection at all.

    Also, there is no proof or even hints that the Uzumaki clan is older. The reason why they have such attributions is only because they have a deep history together.

    The first country that adopted the 1 village/1 country rule was the land of fire, created by the Senju/Uchiha pack. Afterwords other villages, such as the Land of Whirlpools began mimicking the same thing. So in other words, unless we know more about the history of the Uzumaki and Senjuu, who the creator's were, which Kishimoto will doubtfully write about, this is all in the dark about who's older.

    No, the animal a person has a summoning contract with is tied to that person's personality/affinities. The hawk seems to be a typical Uchiha affinity, and Tobi even remarked about whether Sasuke's affinity would be a snake or hawk during the Sasuke/Itachi fight.

    The fact that his summon changed just showed Sasuke's natural affinity after being de-Orochified. The point is his affinity changed, so he never had the ability to summon both types of animals.
    Tobi didn't remark about his affinity at all, but rather just gave a small little metaphor about how Sasuke will live.

    I think you got this whole idea confused. Instead of "affinity," you should be thinking "the animal summons have the choice of who they make contracts with." We have yet to see a summoning pact where the human one-sidedly takes an animal to be the summon. Rather, it's the other way around, the animals choose their partners as you can see when Fukusaku reversed summon Naruto.

    Doesn't make sense, since Nagato didn't reveal his body to most of Akatsuki. Most likely, Tobi himself gave Kabuto what he needed of Nagato's remains for ET after recovering the rinnegan.
    Kabuto summoned Nagato through Edo Tensei BEFORE they made an alliance. What you just typed made no sense.

    The only things that have been mentioned that look like plotholes are Oro's conservative use of edo tensei during the Konoha attack (though this may be circumstantial considering Oro fought and was disabled by the 3rd through the entire attack) & the poor kyuubi ying/yang description.
    And he wasn't smart enough to Edo Tenseii BEFORE going into battle like what Kabuto is doing now?

    other stuff mentioned really just falls under the category of incomplete information, and some of that just means foreshadowing for future explanation & events, and some are just trivial (seriously, Naruto's idiocy taken seriously?).
    Incomplete information that affects the storyline heavily, and is not likely to soon be resolved, is considered a plot hole.

  6. #26
    Urameshi-sama is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DivineVTDragon View Post
    That makes no sense at all. Tobi/Madara's plans were to RULE THE NINJA WORLD with the Moon's Eye Plan, that already implies that his strength should be enough to battle the entire ninja world.

    Had Madara been from another village it's very certain that Jiraiya would not have said "my hunch is Madara." Jiraiya knew of the founding his predecessors and the founding generations and knew what they were capable of. Would the same be said be true if he knew about the Mist Village? No.

    Oro's plans and Madara's plans were two separate matters. Oro wanted to learn every single Jutsu and live forever, Madara just wants to shape the world into whatever he deems fit. How is any of that converging?
    They converge perfectly. Part of Oro's goal was to discover the origin/secret of ninjutsu, and that would lead him to the founder of ninjutsu-Rikudo sennin, explaining his knowledge of Shodai's powers and his obsession with a Uchiha container. Tobi's plans seem to have revolved around reuniting the various powers of Rikudo sennin that have been diluted through descendency. Their motives were different, but the subject of their motives were the same, hence convergence.

    The point on villages is pointless. Jiraiya said the only person who could ever control the kyuubi was Madara. If someone from another village had knowledge of kyuubi history, maybe they could have deduced it as well. Who knows, who cares.

    - I never stated that Madara was the founder. You're also gonna have to look back into it further.
    - Konoha was created when the union of Senju and Uchiha formed and made a pact with the Land of Fire.

    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/6.html

    So how was the Hyuuga there before Konoha even existed? Magic?

    - The sage was the first known wielder of Jutsu and ninja techniques, so before the sage there was no real ninja families, just endless fighting like Jiraiya stated. After the sage spreaded ninjutsu around, the world of ninja existed. As you stated, there isn't any confirmation about the Uchiha or Senju being the first, just that they were decendants of the two sons. However, the fact that their bloodlines were passed and didn't dilute into something different tells us that they have a pureblood connection to the two sons. The Byakugan however, has no such connection at all.

    Also, there is no proof or even hints that the Uzumaki clan is older. The reason why they have such attributions is only because they have a deep history together.

    The first country that adopted the 1 village/1 country rule was the land of fire, created by the Senju/Uchiha pack. Afterwords other villages, such as the Land of Whirlpools began mimicking the same thing. So in other words, unless we know more about the history of the Uzumaki and Senjuu, who the creator's were, which Kishimoto will doubtfully write about, this is all in the dark about who's older.
    I never suggested you though Madara was a founder, that was a side note of when I was checking claims.

    On the Hyuugas', you're forgetting that before the village system the ninja system was just a series of clan wars. Most of the clans currently in Konoha or who were part of the Senju existed back then and eventually merged with Senju or later Konoha. Just because the Uchiha & Senju were the strongest among them doesn't mean they were the oldest. The way Tobi described it merely suggested that the Uchiha & Senju were the latest descendents of RS's 2 sons.

    Your claim on the Uchiha/Senju clan purity is wrong on the latter part, considering we know the Senju descendency to have been diluted (Uzumaki Mito). And clan purity means nothing about strength of descendency. Considering Rikudo sennin had multiple descendents who had different powers, we know his descendents have fractured segments of his abilities. Moreover, there's no evidence that the Hyuuga were any less pure a clan than the Uchiha. We know of the Hyuuga's strict policies to maintain it's bloodline.

    The Uzumaki predecession was just my speculation, but the fact that that the Uzumaki and Senju were described as related clans makes it plausible.

    You're right that very little has been revealed about the clan, but I think it's silly to assume it will stay that way, considering that history guides both Tobi's motives and Kabuto's goal of discovery, and ties into the family history of both the main characters and the 2 most prominent opponents in the series.

    Tobi didn't remark about his affinity at all, but rather just gave a small little metaphor about how Sasuke will live.

    I think you got this whole idea confused. Instead of "affinity," you should be thinking "the animal summons have the choice of who they make contracts with." We have yet to see a summoning pact where the human one-sidedly takes an animal to be the summon. Rather, it's the other way around, the animals choose their partners as you can see when Fukusaku reversed summon Naruto.
    Nope, I didn't use Tobi's words as a basis for my understanding of kuchiyose. However, the metaphor does imply a connection between the attributes of the user and their summon because Tobi was questioning Sasuke's nature through animal metaphors

    The pacts are not one-side in either direction as you've suggested. A contract is a mutual agreement of alliance. Just because one party retains the contract doesn't mean it's the dominant one. It simply makes sense that the animals keep the contract since these animals tend to have longer lifespans than humans.

    Kabuto summoned Nagato through Edo Tensei BEFORE they made an alliance. What you just typed made no sense.
    You're right. I forgot about that.

    And he wasn't smart enough to Edo Tenseii BEFORE going into battle like what Kabuto is doing now?
    This is why I said it was circumstantial. We don't know if Oro was even capable of summoning as much, considering Kabuto claims to have perfected the technique more than Oro. Also, given the attack was supposed to be a surprise, and that Oro clearly planned to take out Hiruzen before taking heavier part in the attack (otherwise why quit it after killing him?), we really can't speculate on what could have been.

    Incomplete information that affects the storyline heavily, and is not likely to soon be resolved, is considered a plot hole.
    Kishi has often used incomplete information in this series to drive reader analysis and questioning that allows foreshadowing. It's inevitable that some unknowns will stay unknown, but many times Kishi reveals/confirms the important unknowns at an important time. It's what makes analyzing the manga so fun.
    Stolen Sig Count: 26

  7. #27
    Kyuubi clone is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    omnipresent
    Posts
    143

    Default

    what about reverse summoning to protect the summoner? sasuke did this to escape diedara's c4, calling in manda and to have manda take all the damage for him without manda requiring a sacrifice... manda demanded sacrifices from orochimaru before he would even fight for him. a blood contract is necessary to be able to summon - this was stated in the manga by jiraiya and kakashi, so how is it that suigetsu can summon manda to retrieve sasuke by just having a vial of orochimaru's blood? this is a plot hole of the highest order yet another that has been drummed up to aid in the golden uchiha's rise to greatness. most of the plot induced stupidity/plotholes happen when it's sasuke's time to shine in the manga, kirin, amaterasu armor, juugo fusion, kaleidoscope sharingan, sasuke's unlimited chakra so that he can spam s-class jutsu constantly to defeat kage-level opponents. everyone seems to get seriously dumb when fighting him so that he can escape or defeat them. it should not even be called plot holes more like sasuke-holes lol

  8. #28
    Kyuubi clone is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    omnipresent
    Posts
    143

    Default

    this manga almost always contradicts itself/nerf abilities to advance "certain" uchitards to god-like status. the manga has strayed very far from the original foundation of the story. hence the reason that many of the abilities seem so hax. tobi having 90+ sharingans and still getting the rinnegan in the end??? why?? anbu from various villages never seem to get rid of "valuable" corpses... the list can go on and on

  9. #29
    krazykwasi is offline Senior Member Community Builder
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Houston, Tx babay!!!
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi clone View Post
    what about reverse summoning to protect the summoner? sasuke did this to escape diedara's c4, calling in manda and to have manda take all the damage for him without manda requiring a sacrifice... manda demanded sacrifices from orochimaru before he would even fight for him. a blood contract is necessary to be able to summon - this was stated in the manga by jiraiya and kakashi, so how is it that suigetsu can summon manda to retrieve sasuke by just having a vial of orochimaru's blood? this is a plot hole of the highest order yet another that has been drummed up to aid in the golden uchiha's rise to greatness.
    What Suigestu did made sense. Its technically the same thing Kabuto did with Orochi when they fought Jiraiya and Tsunade. Kabuto was the 1 who summoned Manda because Orochimaruo was handicapped, all he needed was his blood. The contract is a blood contract so once you have someone's blood you will be able to summon the creature they are alligned with.

    "He is now declaring his words to the WORLD!"

  10. #30
    Kyuubi clone is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    omnipresent
    Posts
    143

    Default

    i'll take that explanation any day kwasi, but for sasuke to know that manda would even do his bidding in the first place without even wanting a sacrifice is just shit, also how would he have known that he would need suigetsu to do this? heck we did not even know about reverse summoning before that was done!

 

 
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
vBulletin Skin by: ForumThemes.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0
Copyright © 2014 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162