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  1. #31
    Ryoga-san is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Yes, I read the chapter again and noticed that it didn't deactivate. Like I mentioned, I lost some of the details by reading on the phone's small display.

  2. #32
    elnino19 is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    ah.so the danzo fight was practice for the final battle.naruto sasuke fusing...we've seen images like that before, havent we?

  3. #33
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    I haven't been feeling good about this manga for over a month now. Ever since chapter 500 Kishimoto's been stacking up one wierd plot twist after another that retcons/contradicts/alters known facts and unnecessarily complicates everything to a ridiculous degree.

    1)Madara being the second Rokudo and gaining Senju powers and so on. This is very clearly a massive retcon. Firstly, how could Izanagi be called an Uchiha kinjutsu if only someone with both Uchiha and Senju powers(namely Madara and Danzo) could use it? How could Madara harvest Hashirama's powers in a deathmatch? And if he could really use Senju bloodlines like Mokuton why hasn't he done so yet? Lastly why the hell hasn't he ever shown the Rinnegan if he is indeed the So6P?

    PS: A minor one too; what was the point of covering up one eye if he had both? Another retcon here...

    2)Nagato being an Uzumaki(and therefore descended from the Sage's younger son) and gaining Rinnegan only because of Madara. Not only does this completely cheapen all the prophecy stuff with Jiraiya, it also contradicts Nagato's own flashbacks(Is Kishi ever going to explain those? Were they illusions by Madara or something?).

    Well, there's at least one thing that's been resolved by these revelations: Tobi really is Madara. This question has been raised many times in the manga and each time the answer has (directly or indirectly) been that Madara tricked the world. There really wouldn't be any point to explaining himself like this again and again if he wasn't really who he said he was.
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  4. #34
    Jahnin is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Witcher View Post

    1)Madara being the second Rokudo and gaining Senju powers and so on. This is very clearly a massive retcon. Firstly, how could Izanagi be called an Uchiha kinjutsu if only someone with both Uchiha and Senju powers(namely Madara and Danzo) could use it? How could Madara harvest Hashirama's powers in a deathmatch? And if he could really use Senju bloodlines like Mokuton why hasn't he done so yet? Lastly why the hell hasn't he ever shown the Rinnegan if he is indeed the So6P?

    PS: A minor one too; what was the point of covering up one eye if he had both? Another retcon here...
    - Because he dont have both. That part of the face is black like tobi, it could be a "manga" effect to hide the state it's in, or it could be like zetsu's... He just put an eye there just like danzou did. And why should he show it anyways ?

    And senju is not harashima only. He was the ONLY one in the clan who could use mokuton(and the only trueother one is his clone). Maybe the power of senju is "creation" : the second was doing massive suiton out on thin air, the first created life with only chakra.. At this point, it could be anything

    We don't know what madara mean by "taking is power". And it's coherent with danzou using izanagi, and madara beeing surprised about it. Why would danzou need the first's cells either way? And Madara is a lyer.



    2)Nagato being an Uzumaki(and therefore descended from the Sage's younger son) and gaining Rinnegan only because of Madara. Not only does this completely cheapen all the prophecy stuff with Jiraiya, it also contradicts Nagato's own flashbacks(Is Kishi ever going to explain those? Were they illusions by Madara or something?).
    Nagato woke up near the dead ninja bodies and had the rinnegan after that. We don't know what hapenned, why he collapsed anyways. Madara could have put it there.
    Oh and yes don't forget.. Madara is a lyer...

    Why does it contradict the prophecy ? I don't see your point..

    Everything you say can be explained right now, so except if kishi write something completly different, I think you're complaining a little too fast..
    Last edited by Jahnin; 09-17-2010 at 12:00 AM.

  5. #35
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    - Because he dont have both. That part of the face is black like tobi, it could be a "manga" effect to hide the state it's in, or it could be like zetsu's... He just put an eye there just like danzou did. And why should he show it anyways ?

    And senju is not harashima only. He was the ONLY one in the clan who could use mokuton(and the only trueother one is his clone). Maybe the power of senju is "creation" : the second was doing massive suiton out on thin air, the first created life with only chakra.. At this point, it could be anything

    We don't know what madara mean by "taking is power". And it's coherent with danzou using izanagi, and madara beeing surprised about it. Why would danzou need the first's cells either way? And Madara is a lyer.
    He used the word 'bloodline'. And he also said he wanted Hashirama's power, otherwise he could just have kidnapped some other Senju. Izanagi was, till now, described as an Uchiha kinjutsu, which it couldn't be if only someone with both Uchiha and Senju genes could have used it. Kishimoto did a retcon taking advantage of the fact that Danzo also had the Shodaime's DNA implanted and decided to link the two for Izanagi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Nagato woke up near the dead ninja bodies and had the rinnegan after that. We don't know what hapenned, why he collapsed anyways. Madara could have put it there.
    Oh and yes don't forget.. Madara is a lyer...

    Why does it contradict the prophecy ? I don't see your point..
    Read again. I said it contradicted Nagato's explanation about awakening it. And don't you think Madara implanting the Rinnegan into a sleeping Nagato and thereby manipulating and deceiving him about his entire life cheapens Jiraiya's dreams and prophecies about finding the Chosen One?

    Heck, this isn't even the last of the problems I have with these wierd-ass plot twists. How about 'the Uzumaki clan's trademark red hair'? I facepalmed at that statement. If red hair is supposed to be a trait of the Uzumaki, to the extent that it's used to identify Nagato as one, then where does that put all the other red-haired characters in this manga, like Tayuya, Sasori, Gaara, Karin and even Chouza Akimichi!?
    Last edited by The Witcher; 09-17-2010 at 12:51 AM.
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  6. #36
    Jahnin is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    He used the word 'bloodline'. And he also said he wanted Hashirama's power, otherwise he could just have kidnapped some other Senju. Izanagi was, till now, described as an Uchiha kinjutsu, which it couldn't be if only someone with both Uchiha and Senju genes could have used it. Kishimoto did a retcon taking advantage of the fact that Danzo also had the Shodaime's DNA implanted and decided to link the two for Izanagi.
    That's your interpretation of these words. It's still an uchiha kinjutsu since it use the eye. The previous users may have been mixed blood. And the first power was not only mokuton. He could control the beast, seal them...

    Read again. I said it contradicted Nagato's explanation about awakening it. And don't you think Madara implanting the Rinnegan into a sleeping Nagato and thereby manipulating and deceiving him about his entire life cheapens Jiraiya's dreams and prophecies about finding the Chosen One?
    Of course it contradict nagato explanation, the guy shouln't know that happened. Even manipulated, Nagato did pass his will into Naruto, what may trigger the change in the ninja world.
    The prophecy is still on tracks.
    And madara could have lied about giing the rinnegan, that wouldn't be the first time.
    Heck, this isn't even the last of the problems I have with these wierd-ass plot twists. How about 'the Uzumaki clan's trademark red hair'? I facepalmed at that statement. If red hair is supposed to be a trait of the Uzumaki, to the extent that it's used to identify Nagato as one, then where does that put all the other red-haired characters in this manga, like Tayuya, Sasori, Gaara, Karin and even Chouza Akimichi!?
    Another example in the same manga : all uchiha have black hair, but areall black haired people uchiha ? NO
    That was just a way to indicate that Nagato was an Uzumaki.

  7. #37
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    That's your interpretation of these words. It's still an uchiha kinjutsu since it use the eye. The previous users may have been mixed blood. And the first power was not only mokuton. He could control the beast, seal them...
    Using Mokuton. <yawn> And considering the Uchiha and Senju hated each other right until the founding of Konoha, and Madara was the first to gain Senju power(by fighting Hashirama), he alone should have been able to use Izanagi among the Uchiha. But he refers to it as though it was an Uchiha jutsu from/before his time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jahnin View Post
    Of course it contradict nagato explanation, the guy shouln't know that happened. Even manipulated, Nagato did pass his will into Naruto, what may trigger the change in the ninja world.
    The prophecy is still on tracks.
    And madara could have lied about giing the rinnegan, that wouldn't be the first time.

    Another example in the same manga : all uchiha have black hair, but areall black haired people uchiha ? NO
    That was just a way to indicate that Nagato was an Uzumaki.
    Actually, not all Uchiha were black-haired. And Madara here refers to red hair as being the mark of an Uzumaki, identifying Nagato as Uzumaki based on that trait. I'm not going to repeat myself again. Read.

    And doesn't it sound far-fetched for Madara to seek out some random civilian kid in the Rain and just happen to find him in a state where he can implant Rinnegans that he's somehow carrying into him? I'm sure an explanation can be made, just that Kishi should give the explanation instead of retconning it just like that.

    The prophecy may be valid, but a good part of it was based on Madara's trickery rather than real great destiny, and Jiraiya believed in a part lie(about Nagato) all his life. Which definitely cheapens it somewhat.

    Lastly, why would Madara lie to a dying woman and a corpse? What benefit does he gain from it?
    Last edited by The Witcher; 09-17-2010 at 01:39 AM.
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  8. #38
    Bledge is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Witcher View Post
    Lastly, why would Madara lie to a dying woman and a corpse? What benefit does he gain from it?
    She is a S class ninja from Akatsuki ... She prepared billions explosive tags for him, why didn't she think about a fail safe intel in the case she died... a la Jiraya ?
    ----> Madara can say bullshit, knowing of it and everyone would believe it, or something. Or it's just the final vilain trait... to have more fun explaining their plan than actually make it real...

  9. #39
    The Witcher is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bledge View Post
    She is a S class ninja from Akatsuki ... She prepared billions explosive tags for him, why didn't she think about a fail safe intel in the case she died... a la Jiraya ?
    ----> Madara can say bullshit, knowing of it and everyone would believe it, or something. Or it's just the final vilain trait... to have more fun explaining their plan than actually make it real...
    Maybe. But that says more about Kishimoto than Madara. What is said and done is true until retconned later, as we see here.
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  10. #40
    Ryoga-san is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    I don't think you should think too much about the hair color. The red hair was a common trait yes, but it wasn't obligatory for all with Uzumaki bloodline. Tsunade has both Senju and Uzumaki blood and she's blonde. However, with such a strong bloodline, I assume she will get an insane retcon the next time we see her fight. Thus far, she hasn't shown anything that would indicate that she has both Senju and Uzumaki blood in terms of strength.

 

 
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