Thread: Naruto Chp 471 Discussion/472 Predictions

^Look, more power is always more useful, but Naruto does have the upper hand at the moment for several reasons.

In terms of combat, Naruto and Sasuke are comparable. Naruto's sage mode

But let's look at personal factors. Sasuke's destroying his body by spamming MS and is losing self-control and even good battle judgment in the process. On the other hand, Naruto has even better control of the kyuubi since the Yondy seal-almost-broken incident.

Also, here's the biggest scale-tipper towards Naruto: Itachi gave him some secret power expressly to fight against Sasuke should the need arise.

But I'm not convinced Sasuke is Madara's successor. We still don't know too much of Madara, and all the testimonies he's given us still don't add up. We have the clan wars discussion he had with Sasuke, then there's the claimed siblinghood to Hashirama, then the revelation of the Moon-eye plan. The most sensible part of all this is his association with the Water country, but even that isn't explained well. And at the moment all Sasuke's been used for is to create disruption while Tobi executes his plans.

Also, a little over a year ago I suspected Yondy sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto with the dual purpose of protecting Konoha and also to protect the Kyuubi from being controlled by Tobi again. The kyuubi may yet be an important informational key, but who knows.

O yea the Kyuubi is def. a special case, in the coming months expect to hear alot more concerning the Kyuubi Key thats in the frog. Sasuke also would play a crucial role cause he's been able to exhibit some latend ability to make the kyuubi "sit" on command like an obidient puppy. Madara was said to be the only uchiha to control the nintails and judging by the Kyuubi's words sasuke is next in line.

Originally Posted by krazykwasi

O yea the Kyuubi is def. a special case, in the coming months expect to hear alot more concerning the Kyuubi Key thats in the frog. Sasuke also would play a crucial role cause he's been able to exhibit some latend ability to make the kyuubi "sit" on command like an obidient puppy. Madara was said to be the only uchiha to control the nintails and judging by the Kyuubi's words sasuke is next in line.

But, Kwasi, you're talking about a half-chakra Kyubi sealed in a guy, whose seal was not totally screwed at this time... but still I completely agree about the latent ability part

Urameshi, thanks for the nice post, it's been quite a while since I didn't read you in this part of the forum

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

^Look, more power is always more useful, but Naruto does have the upper hand at the moment for several reasons.

In terms of combat, Naruto and Sasuke are comparable. Naruto's sage mode

But let's look at personal factors. Sasuke's destroying his body by spamming MS and is losing self-control and even good battle judgment in the process. On the other hand, Naruto has even better control of the kyuubi since the Yondy seal-almost-broken incident.

Also, here's the biggest scale-tipper towards Naruto: Itachi gave him some secret power expressly to fight against Sasuke should the need arise.

Also, a little over a year ago I suspected Yondy sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto with the dual purpose of protecting Konoha and also to protect the Kyuubi from being controlled by Tobi again. The kyuubi may yet be an important informational key, but who knows.

See, this reaffirms my earlier point about how people tend to bend facts around to support what they want to believe. Yondaime and Jiraiya expressly stated once each that he Naruto to control the Kyuubi. Yes, he has only half the chakra, but have you considered that may have been to set up a future plot point involving regaining the other half rather than 'Naruto will always have half-ass Kyuubi chakra, this means he'll never ever control it until the end of time.'?
And the MS spamming is hardly a problem with Itachi's eyes waiting in the wings. Though if you remember my points from before Sasuke doesn't even need it to beat Naruto(devoid of PIS that is).

^I've never said that Naruto won't seek out the kyuubi's other half of chakra. In fact, if you remember, that was supposed to be part of his training with the frogs before it was disrupted by Pain taking over Konoha.

Also, what is is this whole section about:

And the MS spamming is hardly a problem with Itachi's eyes waiting in the wings. Though if you remember my points from before Sasuke doesn't even need it to beat Naruto(devoid of PIS that is).

Are you talking about being easily able to switch from MS to EMS at any time? Because that's a rather weak point. We don't know if Tobi ever intends to reveal that he has Itachi's eyes. Also, even if he does get EMS, he won't be invincible, considering Tobi supposedly lost his in fight with Shodai.

I don't remember your earlier posts since I don't follow them...and what is PIS?

this reaffirms my earlier point about how people tend to bend facts around to support what they want to believe.

This applies to everyone and the direction of their speculations and theories before they have substantial enough evidence to prove or disprove. Thus one of the purposes of discussing theories here is to vet them against other minds to find more substantial proof and disproof for them.

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

^I've never said that Naruto won't seek out the kyuubi's other half of chakra. In fact, if you remember, that was supposed to be part of his training with the frogs before it was disrupted by Pain taking over Konoha.

And yet you don't want it to happen anytime soon. So till when should all these developments(getting the other half, training with Kyuubi and completing that jutsu) postponed: the final chapter of the manga? The longer you delay these the more they stack up, making them harder to implement.

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

Are you talking about being easily able to switch from MS to EMS at any time? Because that's a rather weak point. We don't know if Tobi ever intends to reveal that he has Itachi's eyes. Also, even if he does get EMS, he won't be invincible, considering Tobi supposedly lost his in fight with Shodai.

I'm pointing out that blindness isn't really a factor knowing that Sasuke will receive the EMS soon after such an event passes. Shodaime likely beat Madara only because he controlled eight Bijuu; after all it does allow you to spam S-rank dojutsus endlessly(chakra limits aside).

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

I don't remember your earlier posts since I don't follow them...and what is PIS?

Plot Induced Stupidity. i.e. when a character strangely does not take advantage of an option that would enable them to conquer a situation for the sake of plot. Like when Kakuzu suddenly forgot his elemental techniques and became susceptible to Naruto's Kagebunshin blitz trick that had failed even against Negi. Or how these days every time Sasuke gets into a fight he forgets all his Katons and Raitons except Chidori and jumps straight to Mangekyo.

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

This applies to everyone and the direction of their speculations and theories before they have substantial enough evidence to prove or disprove. Thus one of the purposes of discussing theories here is to vet them against other minds to find more substantial proof and disproof for them.

I gave a pretty good example of what I was saying in the 472 spoiler thread. When a person ignores the most obvious and logical line of thinking and proposes something that has considerably less fact on its side it's clear their personal preferences are playing a role in shaping their argument. I've been there myself in the past.

Originally Posted by The Witcher

And yet you don't want it to happen anytime soon. So till when should all these developments(getting the other half, training with Kyuubi and completing that jutsu) postponed: the final chapter of the manga? The longer you delay these the more they stack up, making them harder to implement.

Now you're making bad assumptions and putting words in my mouth. In fact, you've only given reasons to justify your preferences. I've never said what I want (because I don't have a preference on the issue), but kwasi was saying the logical next step for the manga is having Naruto master the kyuubi and that's simply not true. As usual, there are many possible paths Kishi could go on given the circumstances he's created, and I pointed that out.

(1)I'm pointing out that blindness isn't really a factor knowing that Sasuke will receive the EMS soon after such an event passes. (2)Shodaime likely beat Madara only because he controlled eight Bijuu; after all it does allow you to spam S-rank dojutsus endlessly(chakra limits aside).

(1)For the sake of brevity, I'm going to refer you back to the my response to this in the last post, right after I asked for clarification.
(2) That's quite a presumption considering we know nothing of how Madara lost.

Plot Induced Stupidity. i.e. when a character strangely does not take advantage of an option that would enable them to conquer a situation for the sake of plot. Like when Kakuzu suddenly forgot his elemental techniques and became susceptible to Naruto's Kagebunshin blitz trick that had failed even against Negi. Or how these days every time Sasuke gets into a fight he forgets all his Katons and Raitons except Chidori and jumps straight to Mangekyo.

Ah, I knew it as plot-no-jutsu. Anyways,the fact that sometimes such events recur and occur in patterns should suggest that Kishi deliberately did it (much to the chagrin of 'rational' fans like us). It may be stupid by our judgments, but that doesn't invalidate their consideration in analysis and prediction.

The fact that Kishi does this often, and that Naruto is a shounen manga, which relies on factors such as stupidity and luck and is set in a fundamentally idealized world , gives a good reason to give consideration the theories that aren't the most logical, defeating this point:

When a person ignores the most obvious and logical line of thinking and proposes something that has considerably less fact on its side it's clear their personal preferences are playing a role in shaping their argument.

I've been there myself in the past.

And you'll be there again in the future, as with the rest of us. In the mean time, you should really consider whether bringing this up in the argument is valid. Every theory arises from the theorist favoring certain lines of thinking. They then post the theory to measure the theory's validity in light of the plot, not their own motives.

^I agree. Everyone's arguments are at least somewhat biased to what they believe in - or choose to believe in. That's not to say that the points brought up by any side have any less value in terms of fact but the reality is that when people argue they argue for their side. Rather like in a court case where each side does their best to put forward a convincing argument that supports their stand, the purpose of which is that everyone else gets to see ALL the points put forward and make a decision themselves as to what the verdict is. If we only had one side saying that something is definitely a certain way (and even if that side is correct) then we're just not getting the whole picture, which is the point of having arguments by both sides.

So I'm all for just putting forward views even if they clash and even if some of them verge on the irrational - we're all intelligent enough, I'm sure, to filter out the crap arguments ourselves and take the good points and form our own views and conclusions in the end (even if a post happens to be largely irrational and from an unusually biased party, it doesn't mean there aren't real facts to be considered there).

Speaking of Naruto and the Kyuubi, I agree that while eventually Naruto will probably embark on training to further his Kyuubi control and perhaps even somehow regain the other half of the Kyuubi's chakra, I don't think that it's the only course of action Naruto can take now. It does seem like it's a natural progression because I can't think of many other techniques or things that Naruto would seem to learn (other than learning a one-handed Rasengan) but you never know; I'm sure many of us thought even way way back in the series that he would learn some more control, perhaps after the Gaara plot where he first picked up some control over the chakra. As for myself I would like to see Naruto maximising the potential of the Kyuubi chakra, although I'd actually prefer he tidy up his jutsus in general first (learning a proper Rasengan and having at least a few generic wind jutsus he can rely on instead of spamming Rasenshuriken all the time, just to name a few). It's not to say that Naruto can't do without more jutsus, because I do believe one of Naruto's defining characteristics is how he always makes do and creatively uses his Kagebunshins in ways that no one ever does. Having one technique that you can use extremely well and in a multitude of ways is better than having multitudes of techniques that you can't use with such ingenuity. Still, it would make for some nice variety to see him using some new techniques too - though if he ever learns genjutsu that'll be the day.

Sasuke not taking Itachi's eyes isn't only PIS it's can be explained by him not wanting to gain any power by his and Madara's standards.
So he goes and plays it dangerously around the kages to get into a suicidal fight purposely to see what happens.
In the plot though he will come over his pride and be haunted of going blind.
What I'm trying to say is that Sasuke has legitimate reasons not to take his brother's eyes right away. They were his EYES. It's weird.

@ Urameshi-sama

WHOA Welcome back!, its been a long time Urameshi-sama, i cant believe your still around. its been awhile since you've posted anything around these parts(that includes me too), your rational post have been missed.

Now lemme give this a shot like the old days...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/471/10/
^
Here KillerBee goes into v2 of tailbeast mode, and ive seen people dismissing the fact that naruto has done it before, which he has of course, just not in a controlled manner...

but is that all there is too it?, control? Does it still not damage the users body, and if so wouldnt even a naruto with a controlled V2 still be killing himself slowly, or would the control itself stop the damage to the body? Maybe Killerbee covers his whole body with a chakra shroud of his own before going into V2 which would stop the damage to his body?