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  1. #11
    Nicholas71 is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    I think it's coincidental. Let's look at it one by one.

    Why Kakashi trained Sasuke was obvious. Sasuke (as he said) was similar to him; he has the Sharingan and has a lightning affinity. It would be ideal to train him, because Sasuke was going up against someone strong and needed Kakashi's attention more than anything else. Plus, Kakashi was more worried for him after the encounter with Orochimaru, worried about how he'd turn out, so he gave him Chidori to 'protect his friends', I think he said. That, and probably to appease him a little with some power, together with some guidance.

    Why Kakashi didn't train Naruto was also established. Naruto was too weak in terms of basic skills to learn anything of a high standard from Kakashi. Though he could probably get one or two jutsus down, with his chakra capacity, there's no way he could do anything with fine control. Plus Naruto could never have done elemental training at the time. This already explains why he was passed on to Ebisu, and I don't think there are any other underlying reasons. Oh, and Naruto wasn't as big a priority, given that he wasn't going against Gaara. Neji is strong, of course, but he wouldn't kill Naruto. That and I think Kakashi wasn't worried about Naruto going down a dark path or anything.

    Kakashi didn't plan the whole thing out. Why? It would be simpler to just find Jiraiya and ask him to take on Naruto. Just mentioning that he's the 4th's son or someone reminiscent of Minato would have at least got Jiraiya interested in meeting him first. Plus, Jiraiya would probably know who Naruto is by his name. Relying on a plan that had so many odds stacked against it is quite unlikely. And if Kakashi did it not expecting it to work, it'd seem a it...off for him. One thing I'm not sure of is if Kakashi knew Jiraiya was tracking Orochimaru prior to that.

    Also, given Naruto's high profile (which is why he was assigned to Kakashi in the first place), Jiraiya would definitely be told about it and maybe be assigned to him if he wanted him. There would be no need to bet on such an unlikely plan.

    Well, I can't think on it much right now...but my conclusion is this: it's not impossible, we can't really disprove it, but all it does it fit the circumstances. It's one of those things where things cannot be completely disproved because the details are sketchy. There is nothing in the manga that indicates it's right or hints in that direction, only nothing that says it can't have happened. So while it could possibly, plausibly be believable, it's easier and simpler to believe what we've thought of it all along.

  2. #12
    tfs08933 is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    It was coincidental, just read up old chapters and it showed Jiyara apologizing to Ebisu for stealing his student.
    And Jiyara mentioned he was solely there for research... This makes no sense for Kakashi to do such round a bout method to train Naruto.

  3. #13
    tulron41 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Not saying that kakashi favored sasuke persay, but at the time i feel that Naruto's potential was very small. Kakashi had no interest in helping naruto use the nine tails chakra, his only job was to make sure naruto didnt turn into the kyuubi. Honestly given kakashi's attitude towards naruto, to him it would have just been a waste of time. Even though naruto often surprises everyone without the basics he just isnt all that impressive. and remember when kakashi finally does train naruto for the wind element? it was a huge headache for him and you can tell he generally doesnt want to train naruto because naruto is way to slow for effective training.

  4. #14
    InfernoVia is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Kakashi had no clue about Jiraiya because he didn't give the right advice.

    Ebisu's plan was to work on Naruto's chakra control while Jiraiya's is the complete opposite. It is likely that Kakashi noticed Naruto's chakra control failing but didn't know the cause so gave him to Ebisu (who is a very solid ninja at jounin rank).

    Jiraiya finds him, sees the seal oro used and cancels it. Then he prompts him not to use better chakra control but to use as much of his chakra as possible. This dichotomy of training seems counter-intuitive to Kakashi's foreknowledge of Jiraiya.

  5. #15
    Luphrecio is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulron41 View Post
    Not saying that kakashi favored sasuke persay, but at the time i feel that Naruto's potential was very small. Kakashi had no interest in helping naruto use the nine tails chakra, his only job was to make sure naruto didnt turn into the kyuubi. Honestly given kakashi's attitude towards naruto, to him it would have just been a waste of time. Even though naruto often surprises everyone without the basics he just isnt all that impressive. and remember when kakashi finally does train naruto for the wind element? it was a huge headache for him and you can tell he generally doesnt want to train naruto because naruto is way to slow for effective training.

    Well that's really becuase of kishi's portrayal of naruto as the constant underdog in favor his his favorite character sauske (as the witcher point sout time and tiem again)

    I mean kishi makes it seem like kakashi doesnt really give a shit about naruto and may even harbor some bad feelings becuase he is the "kyuubi kid" despite him being the son of his teacher. . . sounds messed up I know, but that's truely kishi's fault more than any other character in the manga. I think kishi realized this and planned to bring Jiraiya as a character in the manga to remedy that, which brings me to the quote below

    Quote Originally Posted by InfernoVia View Post
    Kakashi had no clue about Jiraiya because he didn't give the right advice.

    Ebisu's plan was to work on Naruto's chakra control while Jiraiya's is the complete opposite. It is likely that Kakashi noticed Naruto's chakra control failing but didn't know the cause so gave him to Ebisu (who is a very solid ninja at jounin rank).

    Jiraiya finds him, sees the seal oro used and cancels it. Then he prompts him not to use better chakra control but to use as much of his chakra as possible. This dichotomy of training seems counter-intuitive to Kakashi's foreknowledge of Jiraiya.
    that event pretty much confirms what was said in this post, kishi made kakashi seem like he really didnt give a shit despite being ordered to guard naruto , hell it even makes the advisors of the thrid (who we have seen as heartless old foggies when dealing with Naruto) seem like they dont give a crap about naruto either. . .and even the thrid to a point, why? well becuae if they did. . .SOMEONE would have told kakashi the truth about naruto's lineage and seal on the kyuubi which im pretty sure the 3rd knew about. . .

    Telling kakashi that. . .knowing that he's the SON of his former teacher, would have prompted him to fix the seal or have someone (like the third) do it for him, instead Naruto gets shafted untill jiraiya shows up, which is basically kishis way of saying "ok I have to make you stronger now so ill do it in a half assed way that only teaches you "basics" and one incomplete jutsu, and a power that slowly kills you and is a danger to all your teamates. . .I'm such a genius"

    pretty much the "coincidences" such as what the op were talking about were simply kishi realizing that Naruto was waay too underpowered to do anything so he had to come up with some way to power him up with out

    a) making it lame ala bleach

    and

    b) without making him lose his "underdog that rises to the top with hard work" theme fall by teh wayside too fast. . .(or at all. . .untill like 5 years later) maybe kishi didnt think he had the capacity to truly balance naruto's growth in power so that he can shed being the underdog and still be a truely wonderful ninja. . .

    now the training arcs DID help a LOT with those points which is at first partly due to jiraiya, and the kind of character that kishi made him out to be so I cant be too upse. . . . .

    hmm, this is becomming a TL;DR post so I'll stop it here you all get what I'm saying.
    Last edited by Luphrecio; 05-14-2009 at 03:32 AM. Reason: I suck at typing
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  6. #16
    reaperzeero is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    The argument here is interesting but what I'm curious about is something someone brought up, Why did Kakashi after meeting orochimaru during the second chunin test not inform anyone?

  7. #17
    metrobluejay is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    I think it was something that was understood and was dealt with off-camera. Also don't know if it's true but I think this meeting was the reason why Kakashi took Sasuke out of the village to train.
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  8. #18
    dalocoman is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by reaperzeero View Post
    The argument here is interesting but what I'm curious about is something someone brought up, Why did Kakashi after meeting orochimaru during the second chunin test not inform anyone?
    I thought that Anko briefed the Sandaime and he briefed the rest of the Jounin. Hence why all the Jounin teacher were there for the preselection before the final.

    I also noted that Kakashi said to Oro how he got pass the Anbu guarding them.
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  9. #19
    Urameshi-sama is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    A late response, but here goes anyways...

    I think metro's giving Kakashi too much credit here. Reasons:

    1) There is no way Kakashi could have foreseen Jiraiya returning to Konoha. Jiraiya had entered Konoha in secret for quite a while at the point because he was scared of being forced into responsibilities (maybe even hokageship?) even when Sandaime was alive. Ebisu had a conversation to this effect with Jiraiya immediately after realizing he was in Konoha, and Jiraiya made Ebisu keep his status a secret from Sandaime.

    2) Kakashi's primary priority was Sasuke at that point, and reasonably so. Sasuke's trauma from the Uchiha massacre made him mentally unstable, and his development as a ninja was always an extension of his drive for revenge. His dark and somewhat destructive motivations, his recent encounter with Orochimaru which caused all of his risky fighting decisions to take a physical toll on him, and the fact that a murderous enemy (Gaara) was gunning for him made Sasuke a very vulnerable target. These factors, along with Kakashi's personality similarities with Sasuke, made Sasuke his primary concern. He had the heavy task of mitigating the effect of Orochimaru's seal, stabilizing Sasuke's mind (and helping him realize some lessons Kakashi learned the hard way), and strengthening him up to take on Gaara.

    3) Implicit in the last point- Naruto and Sakura aren't as important at that time. Sakura was disqualified from the tournament in the last round of the Chuunin exam when she and Ino double KO'ed. She wasn't in any immediate danger. Naruto's weakness at this point had been fundamentals--chakra control and efficiency, ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc... All of these were skills that any host of chuunins or jounins could tutor him in till mediocrity. Furthermore, if things got too dangerous during a match, Kakashi could step in and end it without Naruto seriously rebelling.

    For Sasuke, the likelihood Kakashi could end the fight without causing Sasuke or Gaara to get agitated and escalate their fights to even more dangerous levels was small.

    I'm taking a lot of things for granted, mostly the fact that Kakashi has pretty much figured that Naruto is Minato's son by now (for who but only the willfully blind couldn't see Naruto for who he is). And the fact that Kakashi knows enough about the going ons about Konoha that he'd know when Jiraiya was in town. But I can see this happening really easily.

    The fact that Sakura only sits on her ass for that month is because Kakashi doesn't know what to do with her. He knows she has a great mind and excellent chakra control (precludes her to being a med-nin) but he either isn't connected enough to get her an apprenticeship in the hospital, or he wants his students to have the best. With Naruto it was passing him off to Jiraiya, probably the best person to teach him the way Naruto needed to be taught. With Sasuke it was himself, because he has the sharingan and is probably considered the best ninjutsu user in Konoha at the time bar Hiruzen. Finally with Sakura I guess you could say he was hoping for Tsunade to come back but that's probably stretching too far.
    Kakashi must have knew that Naruto was Minato's son. I doubt he had to deduce this. I also doubt he would have heard of Jiraiya's return either, as Ebisu was completely shocked to find Jiraiya back in town and Jiraiya isn't easy to find when he's hiding (the Onsen was a comical exception).

    Also, you're wrong on Sakura. She sat on her ass because she was disqualified from the tournament in the previous round, not because Kakashi is unsure of what to do with her. Also, you're superimposing Sakura's future development in the manga into her potential and abilities at the time. Good chakra control and intelligence are by no means a precursor for medical-nin (though both are required), otherwise Shikamaru would have been in that category as well. This is especially true since she was good at countering genjutsu at the time, and Kakashi later mentioned that she had the potential to surpass Tsunade because of her more diverse strengths during the 2nd bell test. Also, unlike Sasuke and Naruto, Sakura wasn't taken in by her respective Sannin; She asked to become Tsunade's apprentice.

    I think Kakashi came to these realizations after having him do the tree-climbing exercise in Wave or even before that. So instead of teaching them individual things he focused on their teamwork and making them become the best of friends, because you can possibly see how he's lived with the regret that he only considered Obito a friend rather than a nuisance only hours before he died. So he doesn't want his team to feel the same regrets he has.
    Teamwork is also a cornerstone of being a ninja, and being able to coordinate yourself in an ideal group of 4 or other configurations is an important skill. The fact that this skill could be fostered in all his students simultaneously and that improving this skill would holistically improve the team's performance must have played a factor as well. But, more importantly, valuing teamwork is something he inherited from the entire Senju/Hokage line through the bell test, and he would have valued and emphasized it regardless of his personal experience.
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  10. #20
    twinoceans is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    This should answer it all:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/143/09/
    Jiraiya to Kakashi:

    -"Why don't you look after Sasuke for now. You need to teach him how to use the Sharingan.... BEFORE the real chunnin exam starts, please leave naruto to me!"

    So Kakashi met up with Jiraiya even before the chunnin exam, and Jiraiya convinced kakashi to take care of sasuke while he takes care of naruto, as he fear Akatsuki would look for him.

 

 
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