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  1. #141
    krazykwasi is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    the day a major character gets killed because of a shuriken to the face would be the day kishimoto gets butt f****d by a mob of angry japanese fans. We all know how much the japanese like mass orgies

    "He is now declaring his words to the WORLD!"

  2. #142
    DivineVTDragon is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJaggid View Post
    @VT
    LOL!!! It comes to this again. I can just tell you're going through pains to find some way to counter my arguments. So now you're defending what you honest to god did (which I even gave pinpoint reference to) by saying it was ME who said it? My god VT, this is just sad. I used to be a very active forum-goer so I know painful stubborn ignorant arguing, but man, you take the cake. I'll admit I never heard of VotE before though, so I take back whatever I said concerning that matter (I'll lay my argument to it in a second too).
    Actually, no, I'm doing this during my small breaks in class while studying for finals. I actually find you amusing in that you are just as stubborn and easily read. And yes, if you had read and not misinterpret, than you would have understood that I said "back during their fight (Jiraiya and Oro) it is undetermined who was stronger. However, at the end of Jiraiya's life (and possibly Oro's), Jiraiya was stronger."

    I already mentioned that seeing for himself the difference between Naruto and Sasuke was one of Orochi's reasons, and that HELPS my argument, not yours. You honestly think he'd find that of utter importance enough to risk his body? He was just fucking curious! And seriously you NEED to look up your words before you type them. I'm not joking or trying to insult you, but the more you fuck up your arguments because of small misconceptions over key words the more worthless this entire argument we're having becomes (not that it isn't already, but if I'm gonna waste my time on something I'd like it to have as much value as it can; besides, that's making it too easy). Your misconception that parallel means perfectly identical gives me a chance for this: the very fact that both he and Sasuke we're being chased by more than just Jiraiya and Naruto PROVES how the two were parallel. And before you start arguing to me that parallels ARE perfectly identical, which I know you would, remember that parallel lines can be of different size or even different colors. Likewise, the Nin chased and the Nin chasing happen to be of different ages and skill levels.
    You actually stated that Oro did that for fun, but alright, the paranthesis came after, signifying a smaller afterthought. What the hell was that bad rant for? You're the one having misconceptions about this manga if you think that Jiraiya/Naruto is exactly parallel to Oro/Sasuke, just because they were chased. If Sasuke was chased by the Hokage herself, then I would consider it a parallel to Oro's escape, but no, he was only followed by 5 genin. If Sasuke had left in terms of persuit of knowledge like Oro, then that would be a perfect parallel, however, he left because of revenge. If Oro had been escorted by 4 enemy ninjas OUT of the village like Sasuke, it would be a parallel. Believe it or not, their reason, plan, and execution of leaving is different in all aspects BUT that they fought their best friend. Granted, they have similarities, but that doesn't warrant "parallel" status.

    And Naruto and Sasuke were at full power when both started fighting seriously. Remember that going into 2tails mode healed Naruto, so the fact that Naruto got the shit kicked out of him before that happened is irrelevant. Note: this still leaves my 'will to kill vs win' without a counter-argument. Actually, how about a level-up? I'll turn it into the 'will to kill vs win, keep my promise, and not let everyone's sacrifice go to waste' argument. How does Sasuke's advantage add up against that?
    What are you talking about? Just because he healed doesn't mean he keeps all the chakra he lost, or that he didn't feel any pain. If someone gave you a pill to heal your arm after you got your arm cut off, doesn't mean you'll be fine after that.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/219/08/

    Full power you say?
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/226/10/ "I'll kill you" then a chidori
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/226/11/ "I'll BEAT you back to your OLD SELF."

    Notice that even then Naruto was STILL holding back.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/228/10-11/ Even if you're lung is impaled, and you heal it back, would you consider that FULL strength? I wouldn't.

    I believe that "argument" was already trumped long ago. Naruto was fighting Sasuke with the whole "keep my promise, don't let anyone down" and he still loss AT THE END. This means that he STILL (which throughout the whole fight he was crying, and fought only to avoid fatality) didn't want to kill Sasuke, who pierced him trying to hit Naruto's heart. It also means that Naruto at that time was still weaker than Sasuke.


    lol, you guys are really going to go through such pains for the 'shurikens can't kill people argument' (chakra nail?). But even if what everyone says is true and shurikens have the magical ability NOT to kill people, he can still use any other weapon. Like, I dunno, one of the sword lodged into his stomach that happens to be able to return to him at will?
    Lol at your moot point that is failing. Last time I checked this is a Shounen Manga, not a Seinan. Shurikens will not only kill an important/secondary character, but that it will only hurt for a little bit, then they forget everything about it. I don't think you're even understanding this point, so that's why you went to the sword, which is NOT a projectile (which your whole argument is based upon), but you don't even know that he HAD the Kusanagi sword at that time. It has been stated that Oro had been searching for rare swords his whole life (like Itachi's sword), so it's reasonable to think that he got that sword after he left Konoha (of course, he could have had it during his fight too). Either way, I still would like to see a scene where a secondary/main character is killed off by a shuriken. No? Then come up with another argument because this one is ripe with fail.

    Another misconception you made. To capture and interrogate are NOT the same thing. To capture is to CAPTURE and to interrogate is something you CAN do after. It's like fries and ketchup (or BBQ sauce), they go together, but they aren't the same thing. And you can eat fries alone, right? Likewise, you don't need to interrogate someone every time you capture them, which is why you saying that the jutsus I was talking about are "Interrogation jutsus" is a blatant lie.
    I dunno about you, but everytime we've seen Jiraiya capture an enemy he would interrogate right after. The fact that you use such a small difference in wording shows me you really have nothing left. Let me break this down for you, you don't need to capture a person to interrogate them either (police do this all the time), so does that mean Jiraiya's techniques can't capture as well (or that you can't eat barbeque sauce by itself? I do whenever I'm too hungry)? I originally put his "interrogation" jutsus together with his "capture" jutsu because he does BOTH whenever he captures a person, but really you just started seperating those two.

    Arms argument: Lol, wut? Why wouldn't a ninja defend his legs just like he would defend his arms?
    No one said anything about not defending it. I just stated that it's a lot easier to defend the arms than the legs. The legs cannot hold a weapon (or should I say real life people) and swing it around, the legs cannot rotate and have limited flexibility/mobility compared to the arms.

    And I never said Naruto would go for those important organs, what I said is that going for those important organs and going for limbs (which are actually easier to hit now that I think of it, since they ARE bigger and ninjas often use their arms and hands to defend themselves) is not much different than going for the vital organs.
    I like how you put "Not much different." If I stabbed your arms with a weapon (with the possibility of severing it) and you can only defend by "beating it/breaking it," than I will clearly have the advantage. Likewise, it's been said before, in that battle Sasuke clearly had all the advantage. Sasuke didn't need to think twice about where to hit, while Naruto did. Sasuke can HIT LIMBS AND ORGANS, Naruto can ONLY HIT LIMBS. You see that HUGE difference already?

    VotE argument: .... I answered this anyways. You DID say that Orochi wasn't stronger than Jiraiya. And your sentence is still horribly unintelligible, you even make it sound like you think Jiraiya and Oro fought at VotE!
    No, that's not what I meant, and I do apologize for that wording mistake.

    Let me repeat this one more time so that you can understand this (I'll even do it in steps).

    1) You stated that Oro would be a good villain still.
    2) I stated no, because his time in the manga is up. Whether he fuses with kabuchimaru or not still doesn't make him a better villain than Madara/Pain.
    3) You stated "have you forgotten that Orochi was a Sannin, who was even stronger than Jiraiya"
    4) I stated, no, Jiraiya WAS stronger (which is true).
    5) YOU brang in their battle of the younger days.
    6) I stated that the fight was inconclusive. It cannot be determined who was stronger AT THAT TIME.

    Then we got into pointless arguments after that, like Shurikens actually killing, which majority of the forums can see my point and not yours... hmm. Facts are still facts, and we can argue into oblivion, but the data books ranks Jiraiya higher at the end of his life. You were wrong, and you can either live with it or just keep posting, which is fine since I only come here for small breaks to type anyway.

  3. #143
    TheJaggid is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivineVTDragon View Post
    Actually, no, I'm doing this during my small breaks in class while studying for finals. I actually find you amusing in that you are just as stubborn and easily read. And yes, if you had read and not misinterpret, than you would have understood that I said "back during their fight (Jiraiya and Oro) it is undetermined who was stronger. However, at the end of Jiraiya's life (and possibly Oro's), Jiraiya was stronger."
    Seriously, don't blame me for your god-awful explanation skills. Blatantly defending that Orochimaru is not stronger than Jiraiya and adding examples of Orochimaru losing to Itachi immediately implies that Orochimaru was weaker than Jiraiya. If what you just said was honestly what you thought at the time, you should've said so. But you didn't. In which case it's only natural to think you then thought of something different from what you claim to have been thinking now.

    You actually stated that Oro did that for fun, but alright, the paranthesis came after, signifying a smaller afterthought. What the hell was that bad rant for? You're the one having misconceptions about this manga if you think that Jiraiya/Naruto is exactly parallel to Oro/Sasuke, just because they were chased. If Sasuke was chased by the Hokage herself, then I would consider it a parallel to Oro's escape, but no, he was only followed by 5 genin. If Sasuke had left in terms of persuit of knowledge like Oro, then that would be a perfect parallel, however, he left because of revenge. If Oro had been escorted by 4 enemy ninjas OUT of the village like Sasuke, it would be a parallel. Believe it or not, their reason, plan, and execution of leaving is different in all aspects BUT that they fought their best friend. Granted, they have similarities, but that doesn't warrant "parallel" status.
    And you try to bitch and say that I misinterpret what you say? Read what you just quoted, I already said that they aren't perfect parallels, just parallel. It is simply parallel because: one wanted to keep the friendship while the other did not, there was a chase with numerous ninja after them, their fight was the conclusion to the chase. It's solidified by the fact that they become Naruto and Sasuke's mentors and that they are examples of what those two are likely to become like when they become older. Their lives are parallel but not perfectly identical.

    What are you talking about? Just because he healed doesn't mean he keeps all the chakra he lost, or that he didn't feel any pain. If someone gave you a pill to heal your arm after you got your arm cut off, doesn't mean you'll be fine after that.

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/219/08/

    Full power you say?
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/226/10/ "I'll kill you" then a chidori
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/226/11/ "I'll BEAT you back to your OLD SELF."

    Notice that even then Naruto was STILL holding back.
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/228/10-11/ Even if you're lung is impaled, and you heal it back, would you consider that FULL strength? I wouldn't.
    If someone gave me a pill to heal my chopped off arm.... This... is your argument? Fact 1: A... Oh god, a 'pill to heal my chopped off arm' does not exist, therefore I don't have a clue how it would work had it existed, and I wouldn't know how it affects me after my arm reappeared. Fact 2: A chakra monster is not a pill. Something LIVING that MAGICALLY heals you would work differently that something NON-LIVING that SCIENTIFICALLY heals you. (note: I know that Kishi makes an effort to add some sort of superstitious logic to ninjitsu, but in the end summoning animals, calling up the elements out of your body and making doubles of yourself can only be considered magic).

    And yes, I would consider 'giving your all to take back your friend and keep a promise etc. etc.' "Full Power."

    I believe that "argument" was already trumped long ago. Naruto was fighting Sasuke with the whole "keep my promise, don't let anyone down" and he still loss AT THE END. This means that he STILL (which throughout the whole fight he was crying, and fought only to avoid fatality) didn't want to kill Sasuke, who pierced him trying to hit Naruto's heart. It also means that Naruto at that time was still weaker than Sasuke.
    You might want to look into what I meant by "upgrade." Whatever, I'll explain it. You might have forgotten for all I know, but the original argument was that fighting to kill and fighting not to kill weren't THAT different. This was in relation to both the Jiraiya v Orochi and the Naruto v Sasuke fights, in which case I was using this argument to dispel any idea that the reason both Oro and Sasuke won wasn't because of this - what I considered - small advantage, but because both were realistically stronger than their opponents. Then the matter focused into solely the Naruto v Sasuke battle. I continued with my point that Sasuke didn't have that great an advantage over Naruto, and we both agree that Sasuke won in the end because he was truly superior. It's clear that neither of us will agree to the other side's opinion, so now, I'm moving the advantages statement up to 'how do the advantages truly add up'. THAT is the "upgrade". Yes, everyone knows that Naruto lost. Yes, it's clear that Sasuke won not by luck or plot-no-jutsu, he was better than Naruto. But that has nothing to do with the comparison I've drawn up. My comparison is purely psychological, away from the stats of the characters and solely based on advantages between two individuals. A ninja with the ability to kill another ninja and who is bent on egotistical revenge against a ninja of the same ability who is fighting to protect a promise with the girl he loves, to not put in vain the sacrifices of his teammates, and to bring back a person he considers his brother: who is really at advantage? I'll say it again: this is NOT a conparison between Sasuke and Naruto, this is a sub-comparison between the phsychology of two men that adds into the comparison of psychological advantages of Naruto and Sasuke.

    Shit that was long.

    Lol at your moot point that is failing. Last time I checked this is a Shounen Manga, not a Seinan. Shurikens will not only kill an important/secondary character, but that it will only hurt for a little bit, then they forget everything about it. I don't think you're even understanding this point, so that's why you went to the sword, which is NOT a projectile (which your whole argument is based upon), but you don't even know that he HAD the Kusanagi sword at that time. It has been stated that Oro had been searching for rare swords his whole life (like Itachi's sword), so it's reasonable to think that he got that sword after he left Konoha (of course, he could have had it during his fight too). Either way, I still would like to see a scene where a secondary/main character is killed off by a shuriken. No? Then come up with another argument because this one is ripe with fail.
    As I thought, you're beginning to forget what we were originally arguing about. My argument wasn't based on the projectile, it was based on how quickly Orochi would have been able to kill Jiraiya if he really was in such a hurry. The projectile was the ideal tool for this, but if everyone's going to bitch about how shurikens can't kill main characters, I might as well move on to the next convenient instrument: his bloody sword. I'll admit that it isn't certain that he had the Kusanagi Sword at the time, but it also isn't certain that there were ninja right on his ass and it also isn't certain that he left Jiraiya alive simply because he didn't have the time to kill him (both your arguments btw). So I'll just say this: the events during the Jiraiya v Orochimaru fight, what weapons they had, what intentions Orochimaru had, how strong both were against one another, and what advantages each had are uncertain. Do you agree to this? You can't change who I generally believe was stronger at the time, but it's not like I don't have doubts myself. As I said before, I'm not convinced yet.

    I dunno about you, but everytime we've seen Jiraiya capture an enemy he would interrogate right after. The fact that you use such a small difference in wording shows me you really have nothing left. Let me break this down for you, you don't need to capture a person to interrogate them either (police do this all the time), so does that mean Jiraiya's techniques can't capture as well (or that you can't eat barbeque sauce by itself? I do whenever I'm too hungry)? I originally put his "interrogation" jutsus together with his "capture" jutsu because he does BOTH whenever he captures a person, but really you just started seperating those two.
    You're right, I did separate them, because they're different. And I remember Jiraiya semi-killing what he originally thought were the only three Pains after he caught them in that genjutsu. I don't know how you can think 'interrogation' and 'capturing' are small differences in wording one moment, and then agree that they can be done separately the next. And remember that it was YOU who used the word interrogation when I simply meant capturing. Or shall I say, you said I ordered BBQ when I asked for fries? Does that make more sense? Anyways, I never said you can't interrogate someone without capturing them, and neither did I say you can't eat BBQ w/o fries (I often take down ketchup on its own myself). Those are accusals I have no idea where you got from.

    No one said anything about not defending it. I just stated that it's a lot easier to defend the arms than the legs. The legs cannot hold a weapon (or should I say real life people) and swing it around, the legs cannot rotate and have limited flexibility/mobility compared to the arms.
    Okay, I can see why you would say that in the first place. I personally think the arms are far more important than the legs (and easier to protect, as you say) but I can see attacking the legs as a good strategy itself in order to help get to those arms. And again, adding sense to your statements is a big help. This is what you said: "If you think that going after the arms, which not only is heavily guarded by itself but can offensively strike you down in a counter-attack, compared to the legs, which cannot block well/have limited movement/and cannot wield weapons, then you are dumber than I thought."


    I like how you put "Not much different." If I stabbed your arms with a weapon (with the possibility of severing it) and you can only defend by "beating it/breaking it," than I will clearly have the advantage. Likewise, it's been said before, in that battle Sasuke clearly had all the advantage. Sasuke didn't need to think twice about where to hit, while Naruto did. Sasuke can HIT LIMBS AND ORGANS, Naruto can ONLY HIT LIMBS. You see that HUGE difference already?
    *sigh* Hitting limbs comes BEFORE hitting organs. If Sasuke was going after Naruto's organs, Naruto's limbs would obviously be in the way since Naruto would defend those organs with his limbs. In the end they're both going after clean hits that weaken their opponents. Whether they kill the opponent or captures them when they're finally drained comes after. I understand that Sasuke would essentially not have to worry about going overboard whereas Naruto would, and as I said, that's an advantage, but not THAT big. It's not like Sasuke went crazy on him anyways so that he might kill him without noticing, he was strategic about capturing him and then killing him. Naruto wasn't doing anything similar in order to capture him, likewise, his shortcomings brought him to a loss.

    No, that's not what I meant, and I do apologize for that wording mistake.

    Let me repeat this one more time so that you can understand this (I'll even do it in steps).

    1) You stated that Oro would be a good villain still.
    2) I stated no, because his time in the manga is up. Whether he fuses with kabuchimaru or not still doesn't make him a better villain than Madara/Pain.
    3) You stated "have you forgotten that Orochi was a Sannin, who was even stronger than Jiraiya"
    4) I stated, no, Jiraiya WAS stronger (which is true).
    5) YOU brang in their battle of the younger days.
    6) I stated that the fight was inconclusive. It cannot be determined who was stronger AT THAT TIME.

    Then we got into pointless arguments after that, like Shurikens actually killing, which majority of the forums can see my point and not yours... hmm. Facts are still facts, and we can argue into oblivion, but the data books ranks Jiraiya higher at the end of his life. You were wrong, and you can either live with it or just keep posting, which is fine since I only come here for small breaks to type anyway.
    I agree that the arguments after that were pointless, and I'll say that all we were doing is nitpicking in order to somehow prove the larger argument wrong. However, this 'history' you brought (brang isn't a word, confused me for a sec, you already what I would be saying had I already not said it like twice in this post) up is rather pointless as well. I already know all these points, what the hell are you doing bringing them up again? This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you still haven't given me conclusive proof that Jiraiya was weaker than Orochi at the end (which IS what this post you're supposedly breaking down was supposed to argue against, if you'll kindly look back to when you first said it). You brought the stats up, I did agree with them to a point had himeji not brought up the point that the advantages don't necessarily mean that they conclusively mean one is stronger than the other. I agreed with this.

    I'm not sure if you want to get into this, but we can argue about the individual stats. What advantages Orochimaru's 2 point difference in genjutsu does for him, Jiraiya's other advantages in strength and endurance, and so on. I'll comply if you're up for it. The way I see it, if we're going to reach a conclusion to this argument, it's here in these numbers. Let me copy them:

    Jiraiya: Nin 5 - Tai 4.5 - Gen 3 - Int 4.5 - Str 4.5 - Spe 4.5 - Sta 5 - Sea 4.5 (35.5)

    Orochimaru: Nin 5 - Tai 3.5 - Gen 5 - Int 5 - Str 3.5 - Spe 4.5 - Sta 3.5 - Sea 5 (35)

    May those who accept their fate be granted happiness; to those who defy it, glory.

  4. #144
    hellfire86 is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    can't you two ever get along?
    i swear it's like watching a couple of kids bickering over which has the better toy.

  5. #145
    TheJaggid is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    ^ All you need to do is add a few more years to that statement and it won't be too far from the truth. Like I said before, it's a good way to pass the time.

    May those who accept their fate be granted happiness; to those who defy it, glory.

 

 
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