Thread: Ura's half-assed spec/theory

I actually don't have time to write out my full theory at the moment, but I did make an outline of it a while ago, so I'll post that while I still remember it. So, I'm posting my outline at the beginning, and then the completed parts of my write-up which is continuously being written. I'll replace the outline with language as I find more time later. Sorry for the mess, but hopefully some of you can understand it (the outline) and discuss.
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Outline:

I'm making this thread not so much to propose a theory than to just point out some observations I made in rereading the last 4 chapters and tying it in with what we already know.

One of the big issues we're having right now is verifying Tobi's/Madara's testimony on the history of the Uchiha Clan/Senju/Konoha, Itachi's life, and the events surrounding how Kyuubi attacked Konoha ~15 years ago.

There is obviously a lot of new information revealed in Tobi's testimony, but we as readers have had a mixed reception on it's credibility. Some believe it is completely true due to how well it fits into Itachi's actions, while others (including me) are more suspicious of it due to his identity and the well-covered holes in his testimony.

So, how would we go about verifying his account? Fortunately, we have had 4 other sources comment on him or the subjects he spoke of- Itachi, Jiraiya, Kyuubi, and Sasuke's memories. We've also had an event occur during the course of the manga that's implicative. The most unreliable of these being Itachi's words, which have been seeped in contradictions till his death, and the most reliable being Sasuke's memories, which we got to see firsthand in Itachi gaiden. By cross-referencing these 4 accounts, and noting their discrepancies and commonalities, we can partially figure out which parts of these testimonies are true and which aren't. We can also get a decent idea of how history went down between these players in Konoha history and the true personality of Madara and the other characters whose motives have been hard to read.

For the sake of timesaving, I'll just go through

Tobi’s testimonies (ch 398-402)

Jiraiya’s testimonies (ch 366, 367, 370, 381, 382)

Itachi’s (ch 385, 386)

Sasuke’s memories (220-225)


Countermeasures against the apocalypse:

Itachi’s purpose:
-why make Sasuke an avenger? à Oro? No, Itachi himself could have taken out Oro before he ever threatened Sasuke.
àTo take him out of the village, where murderous elder forces were? Perhaps partially, but how does that justify pushing Sasuke to find methods of defeating the MS? Only explanation: Itachi was training Sasuke to take down a much more sinister force. (use logical expansion)
*saving Sasuke not done out of love, but out of necessity and as their only hope

Minato’s purpose:
-sealing Kyuubi, which he could have likely as easily sealed it in hell with him, in his son? Exp: Kyuubi’s power was necessary for Konoha to counterattack someone who posed such a threat he felt Kyuubi’s power would be needed. Kyuubi living through the event also implicates him in knowing of Minato’s intention. àEvidence of the knowledge.àImplication of Naruto having power independent of Kyuubi’s influence.àhis mother’s side.
*Naruto gets kyuubi not out of love, but out of hope as well.

Why Madara as the cause instead of Pain?
-Madara made himself known somehow in the Kyuubi attack
-both Jiraiya and Itachi logically derived his existence through the attack, therefore he did something incriminating in it to reveal his livelihood
-Pain wasn’t known of by Minato.
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More on Madara:
-Itachi’s claim of Madara’s dropped power and lining up with his behavior post-kyuubi attack.
-Itachi’s lining up of joining Akatsuki, ANBU, and meeting Madara at the same time. Madara has made no mention of his shown role in Akatsuki to Sasuke, and has shown no direct relation between ANBU or Akatsuki.
-Itachi’s suspicious activity at the time: 1) Itachi’s sole S-rank mission at the time 2)ANBU missions 3)Itachi meets/realizes Madara 4)Itachi joins Akatsuki 5)Itachi getting MS

-Recount to comment Konoha Police made to Itachi during Shisui’s murder. “We have our own ways to relay to ANBU”. Implies 1 of 2 things: If it was regular1) Uchiha were NOT feuding with the hokage; 2)
-Itachi’s battle personalityàRoot philosophy; inordinate power of Danzo’s word in the Uchiha scenario with Itachi, Danzo’s personal motility in hunting Sasuke, cultish defiant secretive nature of ROOT, Danzo’s incarceration, Jiraiya’s final warning.
-‘testing my capacity’-Root emotional cutoff

-Uchiha connection to ANBU->Implies nonaggression with ANBU. However, we already learned there were no Uchiha in ANBU before Itachi
-If Uchiha were referring to hokage controlled ANBU, making mention would be easy
-Referred to a separate entity, the only other entity is ROOTif hokage had control over ANBU, and Uchiha threatened Itachi with revealing him to ANBU
-Tobi’s artificial persona as a carefree guise fits the act Sai was pulling against Danzo, and called for.

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Start of Write-up:

Well, I should have polished this theory a bit more and done a little more research to back it up and make it more comprehensive (and spent more than 10 minutes writing this post), but I've been lazy/busy and won't get to access to computers as easily soon, so I've decided to share what I do have while it's still relatively fresh within my mind.

This was the original introduction to my theory:

I'm making this thread not so much to propose a theory than to just point out some observations I made in rereading the last 4 chapters and tying it in with what we already know.

One of the big issues we're having right now is verifying Tobi's/Madara's testimony on the history of the Uchiha Clan/Senju/Konoha, Itachi's life, and the events surrounding how Kyuubi attacked Konoha ~15 years ago.

There is obviously a lot of new information revealed in Tobi's testimony, but we as readers have had a mixed reception on it's credibility. Some believe it is completely true due to how well it fits into Itachi's actions, while others (including me) are more suspicious of it due to his identity and the well-covered holes in his testimony.

So, how would we go about verifying his account? Fortunately, we have had 4 other sources comment on him or the subjects he spoke of- Itachi, Jiraiya, Kyuubi, and Sasuke's memories. We've also had an event occur during the course of the manga that's implicative. The most unreliable of these being Itachi's words, which have been seeped in contradictions till his death, and the most reliable being Sasuke's memories, which we got to see firsthand in Itachi gaiden. By cross-referencing these 4 accounts, and noting their discrepancies and commonalities, we can partially figure out which parts of these testimonies are true and which aren't.

As you can see, this method is quite reliable, but would require a lot of review, which I didn't take the time to do, thus not being able to make this theory comprehensive. However, here is the biggest consistent trend of interest I've found in starting this process:

Both Naruto and Sasuke were set up as countermeasures against some apocalyptic force, which was probably Madara.

Now, how do I get this? Mainly by juxtaposing the testimonies and actions of Jiraiya, Minato, Itachi, Tobi, and Kyuubi and analyzing them.

First case: Sasuke

Let's look back to the way Itachi acted in regards to Sasuke. Initially Itachi made himself into a villain and antagonized Sasuke into seeking 'power'. After Tobi's testimony, we learn that he sacrificed himself for Sasuke. Considering that we know the latter testimony to be pretty accurate to reality, and the big precedence to it before Tobi’s testimony, it’s clear Itachi was at least working to Sasuke’s favor. But, if this is true, why would he have set Sasuke up as an avenger after the Uchiha massacre? How would this behavior have worked in Sasuke’s favor ultimately?

Was it to make Sasuke stronger to combat the threat of Orochimaru? No. Itachi himself could have taken Oro out before he ever threatened Sasuke when he tried to take over Itachi’s body.

Was it to push Sasuke to eventually leave the village or become independent of it since there were threatening elders within it? Perhaps partially, but how does that justify pushing Sasuke to find methods to defeat the MS? It doesn’t. The sharingan isn’t needed to become an S-rank ninja or a kage level ninja.

So why was Itachi so adamant in forcing his brother to confront him, with the big caveat of defeating the MS? The only real explanation for why Itachi was training Sasuke to counter the MS (which is clearly what he was doing, considering he only used MS techniques on him and set himself as Sasuke’s ultimate roadblock) is that Itachi was training him to take down a much more sinister force than a normal S-ranker/kage level ninja, and considering how specific this roadblock was to the Uchiha, there is a high implication that force is Madara.

Madara admitted to wanting to get revenge on both Konoha and the clan in his talk with Sasuke on his meeting with Itachi; Itachi wanted to protect the village. Their compromise, according to Tobi, was to let Madara take the clan but leave the village safe.
Also, Tobi’s speech painted Itachi as a martyr with a brother complex, but explained practically nothing of Itachi’s life outside how it affected Sasuke’s own encounters with Itachi and the vague mentions of this elusive Madara. The speech was well engineered to steer Sasuke’s emotions without telling him anything.

We, the readers, have the privilege of knowing better. Firstly, we know Itachi is one of the most intelligent, powerful, and independent characters in the series. He would take care of any threats personally if he could. The fact that he gave everything up for Sasuke and ended up dying just to give him power, Uchiha powers more specifically, reflects that Itachi felt that he couldn't defeat Madara and left the task to Sasuke.

To be continued...

Edit: If you comprehend what I'm getting at, please comment.

Also not that this post is a partial basis/complement to this thread. The green text is partially explained by this complementary theory: Kyuubi Knew Minato's Motives? - Naruto ForumsE]

I haven't read the whole thing
But I like your view on Itachi/Orochimaru/Sasuke

I still think that Itachi did what he did to Sasuke out of hope and love.

Also, I have a feeling Minato knew about Madara and possibly Akatsuki, so he sealed Kyuubi within his own son, the Hokage's child, whom would have a great amount of security in the village. Unfortuantely, that didn't work out so great.

I agree with Urameshi that Naruto and Sasuke have been prepared for a greater purpose, surely an even bigger threat than Kyubi.
Though I don't see Madara to be personnally that threat. He has only one eye. Itachi said that Madara's power was decaying, which is probably true. EMS may only be an MS that doesn't decay by using it willingly, and don't give eternal life. Tobi does look old behind his mask.
After awakening Kyubi, Madara is probably seeking another big power, either by infusing it in him (new set of eyes, chakra boost by bijuus or whatelse...) to provoke apocalypse.
Yes, this power can be embodied by Tobi/Madara, as well as Pain.

Pain's character remains a secret (except for Jiraya ^^). 6 bodies, rinnegan, etc... We don't know where is Nagato, the only rinnegan user thart Jiraya knew.
One thing is sure, the first rinnegan user has been mentioned, just as Madara was long time ago. Even if no clue has come out earlier, what if the threat/power could merge from reviving/gaining power of the first rinnegan user? The one who is said to have developped/created and mastered all types of ninjutsu?

Urameshi pointed out that something bigger, probably a lot bigger, which obliged Minato and Itachi to give great powers to their heirs, to come up with it, which I totally agree.
I 'm longing for your full theory and demonstration!

i agree with the majority of your theory, but it seems to me the whole "avenger" thing was meant to keep sasuke fighting for honour, and keeping him to "reclaim his clan's honour in the village" kind of thing. I think this is supported by his actions of trying to keep him from meeting madara. Itachi, i think intended sasuke to become a guardian of the village. Although, Sasuke, instead of wanting to protect the village like itachi did, decided to take his revenge out on the people who forced his beloved brothers actions. Thus the top non hokage brass.

Basically i saw it as itachi wants sasuke to take his power, return a hero to the village, and keep it safe from madara.
But, sasuke did the opposite, beliving madara's words over his brothers statements, and madara used sasuke's easily affected mental state, twist him against the village.

No disagreement with the theory :P just some of the details.

Though I don't see Madara to be personnally that threat. He has only one eye. Itachi said that Madara's power was decaying, which is probably true. EMS may only be an MS that doesn't decay by using it willingly, and don't give eternal life. Tobi does look old behind his mask.
After awakening Kyubi, Madara is probably seeking another big power, either by infusing it in him (new set of eyes, chakra boost by bijuus or whatelse...) to provoke apocalypse.
Yes, this power can be embodied by Tobi/Madara, as well as Pain.

I actually partially agree with this. I was just starting to get to the (mutually inconsistent) testimonies and bad blood between Madara and Itachi. But Itachi's description of Madara's power loss was completely true. Considering that Madara only started showing signs of doing long-term planning and legwork after the kyuubi attack, and also the fact that Madara's existence was derivable by both Minato and Itachi as I elaborated in this post, there is a big implication that Madara did something characteristic of only him or had a direct confrontation with Konoha during the kyuubi attack, and Yondaime defeated him by doing some considerable damage (resulting in Madara's loss of immortality, maybe through some eye damage). Another indicator of this possibility is that in the very first chapter of the manga, we see that lightning-feel Yondy is late to the kyuubi attack. However, he has to still be stronger than Itachi, since Itachi ultimately sacrificed himself to boost his brother's strength .

Yes, this power can be embodied by Tobi/Madara, as well as Pain.
Pain's character remains a secret (except for Jiraya ^^). 6 bodies, rinnegan, etc... We don't know where is Nagato, the only rinnegan user thart Jiraya knew.
One thing is sure, the first rinnegan user has been mentioned, just as Madara was long time ago. Even if no clue has come out earlier, what if the threat/power could merge from reviving/gaining power of the first rinnegan user? The one who is said to have developped/created and mastered all types of ninjutsu?

I was thinking of this when I was considering the events, but Pain was a relatively recent development that hasn't had much external influence/impact outside of relations with Akatsuki and Jiraiya. I say he's a true deus ex machina, and anticipated neither by Jiraiya nor Minato. The only people who could have recognized his danger was Madara and Itachi. From here on, I get fuzzy though. The whole rain incident after Deidara's death suggested a possible Pain-Itachi alliance, but afterwards we see the Madara and Pain were cooperating to make each of their goals a reality...

I still think that Itachi did what he did to Sasuke out of hope and love.

1. I'm not refuting the hope and love part, but I do think that more than just hope and love led to Itachi's actions: strategy also played a role.
2. Another thing I'll bring up later in the theory is the parallel between Itachi and Minato in Sasuke and Naruto's lives respectively. Both were regarded as geniuses of the ninja world, yet both ended up sacrificing themselves for others. These people are true ninja, and calculate the most economic decisions when they need to. The fact that they killed themselves to strengthen the next generation suggests 2 things: 1) There is a threat that their own generation couldn't handle (inclusive of Minato and Itachi) and 2) Naruto and Sasuke do have to potential to defeat this threat, or at least their generation can.

This part is totally characteristic of Konoha, or are we all forgetting the will of fire?

Also, I have a feeling Minato knew about Madara and possibly Akatsuki, so he sealed Kyuubi within his own son, the Hokage's child, whom would have a great amount of security in the village. Unfortuantely, that didn't work out so great.

Why didn't it work out O_O? Also, Yondy wasn't an idiot. Sealing the kyuubi in Naruto was meant as a failsafe against another unelaborated ability Naruto has, which I'll get to later.

Anyways, I have like 12 hrs to answer questions before I'm gone for 2 days for pretty consistent traveling, so get the questions out now if you can.

one thing,however, i never got- what was the point of the tobi disguise?

Frankly, I don't get it either. Masks obviously hide something, but we don't know what in this case. All we know is that he uses one eye, so there's a chance the other one was cut off/damaged as I was suggesting, but that's all I have for now. We need more chaps out before anything solid /supported can be said.

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

Why didn't it work out O_O?

Well, for one, almost everybody in the village ended up despising him, and he wasn't known as the Hokage's son. He didn't get the proper security he deserved, like Konohamaru, who has Ebisu as his Secret Service bitch, and he's the grandson of the Hokage (that was at the time of Sandaime's rule).

I like this theory. It coincides with many of my thoughts so it's easy to understand...but that means that I don't come up with many questions...

Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama

I actually partially agree with this. I was just starting to get to the (mutually inconsistent) testimonies and bad blood between Madara and Itachi. But Itachi's description of Madara's power loss was completely true. Considering that Madara only started showing signs of doing long-term planning and legwork after the kyuubi attack, and also the fact that Madara's existence was derivable by both Minato and Itachi as I elaborated in this post, there is a big implication that Madara did something characteristic of only him or had a direct confrontation with Konoha during the kyuubi attack,

This kind of makes me think that Tobi is pretending to be Madara by needing to do something as obvious as summoning and using the kyuubi; most of the elders knew that the sharingan could control the kyuubi already... I mean shouldn't Madara have any other jutsu that made him fearsome?
ugh...I lost my track of thought..... I just think that any other Uchiha w/ MS could've done the same and Konoha/Itachi/Minato would think that they were madara as well. (Keeping in mind that Madara/Tobi was/is still wearing a mask.)

I hope I was at least semi-coherent with this.