Foul Play in Itachi's death: new details & specs
I spend about an hour writing up this thread yesterday, but then firefox crashed on me and ST's downtime yesterday prevented the session restore from restoring my text, so here's the abbreviated version of what I planned to say.
There has been some speculating going on around the forum that Itachi's unusually weak fighting and death were a result of outside forces. This statement is just speculation on it's own, even when considering how quickly Itachi's eyes deteriorated and his noticeably weaker fighting from before.
But, if you look at the last 50 chapters again, a lot of suspicious actions have occurred to support this idea. Why haven't we noticed them then? Because we were all too busy focusing on the big revelations and actions to notice them, including the revealing of Pain and Madara, Jiraiya going for his final fight, revealing Naruto's ancestry and his seal, and the fighting among Akatsuki and Team Sasuke just to name a few.
So, here are my full findings: (You can ignore this section and go directly down to the summary if you want. This is just my evidence for what I say there.)
-Pain lies to Itachi and confirms Sasuke's "death" after the Deidara fight, perhaps on order by Tobi/Madara (p.
-Tobi declares Sasuke's superiority with the sharingan when compared to Itachi (p17).
--> Lying to Itachi suggests they are either using him as bait for Sasuke or trying to take Itachi out. In either case, it's apparent Pain/Akatsuki/Madara aren't working in or with Itachi's interests and may have a volatile relationship with him.
-Tobi then commands Pain to take out Naruto.
--> Naruto was initially assigned to Itachi. The fact that Pain replaced him in the assignment means that they either didn't trust Itachi to complete the mission or didn't expect him to be able to (read: they expect him to betray or die).
-Itachi reveals awareness of Pain's lie (scene in the rain).
- Naruto surprisingly finds Itachi walking in the woods, acting independently of Akatsuki's commands (since we saw the last Akatsuki), and without the intention to kill Naruto (p16-1. Hinted he is pursuing Sasuke through conversation w/ Naruto (this part in ch366).
-Jiraiya v Pain starts up, we meet Konan (who disappears after a while), we see Tobi on VoTe, and we see Sasuke's preliminary fight with Itachi's bunshin, and Team Naruto continues chase.
-We see the middle of Jiraiya v Pain , Team Sasuke meets up with Kisame, with Sasuke moving on to meet Itachi (p9).
--> Notice that till this chapter Itachi (main body) & Kisame weren't accounted for during the last 14 chaps. And we have yet to see Konan as well. Tobi also seemed quite free to move around during this time..
-Kisame states he just came out of battle.
-Itachi shown sitting in throne at the hideout:
-->Notice the craters in the wall. Those are definitely not from natural aging. Maybe the fight Kisame mentioned took place here.
-Tobi meets up with Team Naruto and starts playing with them. He is clearly stalling so the Sasuke/Itachi battle isn't interfered with (p12).
Summary of events (in order):
1) Itachi and Akatsuki/Madara became increasingly suspicious and hostile towards each other (ex: Pain's lie).
2)Tobi/Madara thinks Itachi's eyes are weaker than Sasuke's. He also seems to be cutting Itachi off from Akatsuki, reassigning the capture of Naruto to Pain.
3) Itachi recognized this turn in motives and started to act independently.
4) Kisame mentions having a fight with an unspecified person/persons at this point. Since Itachi is his parter and they were travelling together, it is very likely Itachi was involved. Tobi/Madara and Konan are prime suspects at the moment, or a new person altogether.
5) When Sasuke arrives at the hideout, we see that there must have been a battle at the hideout (though we don't know whether it took place recently or is from some ancient Uchiha tussle) and learn that Itachi has been there a while (since he covers the place in his genjutsu). Also, once Itachi and Sasuke start fighting, Zetsu notes how Itachi is gets hit by blows he could normally avoid.
6)Tobi stalls Team Naruto from potentially interfering in the Sasuke/Itachi fight once it started.
So, do y'all think this sounds reasonable or am I off my crocker? And, do you think there was more to Itachi's death than just his sharingan overuse?
Stolen Sig Count: 25
I say you are bat shit crazy.
Just kiddin Ura. Well, Some of the new Theories does indicate that Madara had something to do with Itachi fighting so "poorly" Espacially because Madara predicted Itachi would loose. Hence him wanting Sasuke for himself. I agree with you that Itachi acted on his on. It was clear that he didn't think highly of Madara as he once used to, or others did in the past.
Also I do agree you with Madara Stalling them, Zetsu was clearly there to see how the fight went, and report back to Madara.
But as for the fight at the Uchiha hideout. I dont really think something big has gone down there. The place is old, I mean really old. Ancient hideouts tend to get a bit messy after several years of no use. I say that the holes etc. Are there to tell "us" that the place hasn't been used for ages, that it maybe was one of the first hideouts the Uchiha made. At the pic, you can also see the hideout from great distance, the stone bridge that exstent from each side are also broken, or in poor condition. Even Kisame couldnt do that much damage to an entire hideout. It would be weirder if the place was in mint condition, then new theories would spring out if the place are still in use by the Uchiha etc. So I dont think the holes in the wall are there because Kisame had a fight, but the "another fight" line does make you think.
But just to summerise, I do think you are right, when it comes to Madara hand his dirty hands in the Sasuke/Itachi fight.
hmm i like what you're driving at
though i have a few comments:
- it's not pein who lies to itachi but zetsu; zetsu is the one reporting
he also gets his report from madara after their little akatsuki meeting starting by asking 'so what happened to sasuke'
- i'm strictly against the idea of konan being the one responsible for itachis weakness
while it's true that she disappeared during the jiraiya fight there's nothing that indicates some connection to itachi.. she even retreats after pein orders her to 'fall back' (well she's watching for a while though)
she made a really obedient impression.. i can't imagine her going somewhere off to injure itachi
additionally i think she's teamed up with pein - she's like always sticking to him isn't she? so seeing as akatsuki always acts in two man teams, i think she's supposed to help pein capture the nine tails
thats the logical impression everyone should have... hence suggesting konan being responsible for *that* seems highly unlikely to me
- as for the location.. well yes it is a pretty run down place.. but that's insufficient
- as for the time.. well i don't think it was during the jiraiya encounter...
it would've been right before his showdown with sasuke.. thats not reasonable
common sense would tell you to postpone such showdown if you're seriously wounded
there must have been something why he couldn't avoid that fight.. and his weird behaviour before (meeting naruto/talking! - 'crying' in the rain) kind of indicates he knew what was about to happen
i'm starting to think it was something that put itachi under time pressure (or rather a time limit), some event that made his showdown unavoidable.. and it gotta explain his actions
zetsu telling him sasuke died isn't enough to let his target walk away <_<
at that moment he clearly knew that sasuke was the higher priority thus i think whatever caused the reason was before he met naruto
yea, i think ur onto somethin urameshi. with all these things coming together, it isn't hard to believe
Pain was thought of as the leader of the Akatsuki. I don't know, if Itachi knew Tobi was pulling the strings. If Itachi had gotten little bro's eyes, he could of been major trouble for everyone.
i dont get why u keep on bringing up Pein. Pein had to go after Naruto because Itachi has failed like 2 times trying catch/wound Naruto. Pein being the strongest akatsuki ignoring madara is fitting to fight the strongest tailed beast along with the fact that Naruto has become a lot more powerful than when Itachi tried to capture him.
Also Itachi and Pein's relationship has never been 100% master and servant like the other members. In several scenes it showed how Pein had to personally request Itachi to do something like telling Deidara/Sasori the description of Naruto. This shows that Itachi probably knows Pein isnt the master but had to obey him because Pein's status is slightly higher under Madara or just to simply keep the act
Everything else you mentioned could be true, just get rid of the Pein part. If Itachi had gotten the eternal MS he would essentially become Madara back when he used to be powerful, so naturally Madara had to make him go away
Last edited by gummyworms; 04-01-2008 at 06:36 PM.
There could be many explanations for this particular point. Poison would likely lead to the symptoms Itachi exhibited as well as explain the pace of his death and the increasing severity of his symptoms. Based on how Itachi was vomiting blood, it is almost certain that his woulds were internal. We have yet to see how Madara fights, if he was the one responsible, he could have used some form of advanced doujutsu with prolonged effects or something along those lines.
Originally Posted by Urameshi-sama
I have been reading over a lot of the past volumes lately and from what I could tell there seem to be a lot of subtle hints that something was going on with Itachi for awhile. The conversation between Kisame and Itachi following the defeat of the 4 Tails Jinchuuriki, as well as a number of the occasions already mentioned by others here. I actually brought up the point about Zetsu lying about Sasuke's death to Itachi and noticing the truth, back when it originally happened in the Manga. It didn't generate much discussion though, likely since so little had been revealed at that point. Madara assigning Pain to go after Naruto when he was originally assigned to Itachi was also a bit of a tip off that something was going on. I highly doubt it was just because Itachi had failed to capture Naruto before, otherwise I think he would have given Pain that responsibility sooner. By the time he told Pain to deal with Naruto, Itachi hadn't been after him for a long time, he was waiting until the other Bijuu had been captured.
Itachi's conversation with Kisame before sealing the 4 Tails, really seemed to have some subtext going on, as did the moment in the rain when he tells Kisame Sasuke isn't dead yet and Itachi's meeting with Naruto. There are so many questions that remain about what was really going on with Itachi. There is almost no doubt in my mind that there was more to Itachi's death than meets the eye (in this case that's more literal).