Get the message?
Get the message?
But unfortunately I'm to lazy to write or even to lazy to correct the grammar of my own essay.
Zetsu would of just ate obito if he found him dead/dying. 4th is dead, Naruto is his legacy. For him to be alive would ruin his legacy. Not to mentain he would of taken Naruto as a baby, and possibly trained him to catch the other tailed demons, so he would be easier to get once the time came if he was AL. The blue haired member is prolly a girl...but not Rin. Rin has brown hair.. google Rin and see for yourself.
Im reallly looking forward to what Zetsu can do in battle though...
You should get Mozilla Firefox, you can undo in fast reply^^ nah it happened, with me a couple of times.
If you use the quick reply, write a big post and by mistake lose focus of the window, press backspace and *boom* post gone..
No undo there...
Refreshing the page sometimes screw up..
For that I use Notepad to write big things.. and then just paste here.
So you took 2 theories, added a lot of hypothesizing and speculation to create an even more far-fetched theory, and then called it a spoiler?
Not just a random spoiler.
It's the biggest Spoiler EVER.
"For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar, and a bright flame was in him"
Kakashi mentioned that all those close to him were dead...
Ok he assumes 4th is dead. ( I think he is personally. )
He saw Obito die, though I am in favour of the Tobi=Obito therory
HE knew Rin joined akatsuki. Either she wanted him to as well or he found her doing so, if he couldnt stop he its a perfectly good reason to say that everyone close to him was dead, mabye he considers her dead.
And I think somehow. Either Zetsu was passing by, or ordered to go there, mabye when he was going to eat Obito, something happened, mabye tobi appealed to the side of Zetsu which isnt the mental one, and Zetsu sorta saved him
And with someone saying rin being the medical nin. Attaching deidaras arms, A while back I posted an image, showing His arms sewwen back on, looks liek the work of Mr I have four elements on my back and have tenticals.
why do you guys flame for speculation?
its not like we're influencing the outcome of the anime by voicing our opinions.
after all, we're taking time out of our lives to share our opinions, so if you don't have anything to contribute, or you feel angry on the stupidity of others, be the better man and let it slide.
flaming gets people nowhere
Guys, guys! For the first thing, the spoiler warning may have been a bit over the top, but I DID put a big disclaimer saying that I have no proof for my theory but IF I AM RIGHT it will be a massive spoiler. And I think I'm at the very least on the right track.
Next thing, if you're going to argue with me, at least TRY to do it on the same level. That means don't skim read my posts, misquote me and blatantly overlook major parts of my arguments in your rush to declare me a noob. Several of you have done this so far, although I appreciae those who're putting in the effort.
If you're ever going to wonder WHY something might happen in a manga, there's one thing you need to keep in mind: using real logic on this series is futile- you have to use MANGA logic. So far the characters we know about from Akatsuki include Sasori (part of the Sand background, but frankly he was written in out of nowhere), Deidara (random guy), Hidan (random guy), Kakuzu (random guy), Zetsu (random guy) and Kisame (vaguely tied to an old character, but ultimately a random guy). The others are Orochimaru (who, while very relevant to the series, left Akatsuki before it began) and Itachi (who is also relevant, but to a different part of the plot- he's really only part of the organization to give Sasuke a reason to butt heads with them. I mean, what's really in it for him?) So for Akatsuki to be more than just a "random evil organization who needs to be stopped because they are evil", for them to actually have IMPACT on the plot, there needs to be something special about the last three members: Tobi, the leader and the kunoichi. ALL THREE of these character have kept their identities and most of their natures secret so far, while the others members have been very open (with the reader at least). There must be a reason, manga logic dictates it.
Consider what will happen with the series if the leader, Tobi and the kunoichi ARE just totally new villains written in to fill in the numers. Naruto and co (with or without Sasuke) will challenge them and, ultimately, defeat them. It won't be easy, will take a long time and there will undoubtably be a lot of sacrifice and drama along the way, but there'll be no emotional investment in the conflict. What made the Naruto/Gaara fight so dramatic? The fact that the two were so similar, that Naruto could see in Gaara what he could have grown up to become under different circumstances. What made the Naruto/Sasuke fight so great? That these were two best friends battling to the finish, not just a running ninja and a pursuer. It's was the same with the 3rd's last stand against Orochimaru- Orochimaru could have summoned ANY two strong ninja to fight the 3rd, but deliberately selected his old masters, the 1st and the 2nd. ANY good fight involves emotional involvement.
So, do you really believe the series' ultimate enemies will just be a couple of new faces written in to provide some more strong enemies?
There are a number of other points I would like to make- ones I was originally saving for reasons of space, drama, or ones I simply hadn't thought of when I first posted. Here they are:
1. Addressing the issue of the possible motive the 4th Hokage could have for forming a criminal group like Akatsuki, I believe I have found an answer. The Akatsuki leader's plan appears to have similar motives to those of Anotsu Kagehisa from 'Blade of the Immortal'. Allow me to paraphrase from chapter 329:
While violent and not terribly characteristic of the 4th's known personality, the plan is ultimately altruistic and has a twisted sense of nobility to it. It would not take more than a reasonable "unbalancing" of the mind of a noble ninja like the 4th for him to come up with such a plan to preserve the way and place of the ninja in a world where he feels they are becoming increasingly unneccesary, much in the same way that Anotsu fights to prevent the obsolescence of the swordsman in Blade of the Immortal. He doesn't need to be completely barking mad to FEEL he is doing the right thing.Originally Posted by Akatsuki leader
2. Why does EVERYONE say "Tobi can't be Obito because Obito's body was crushed"? You're COMPLETELY missing my point. If Obito was resurrected with 'Summoning: Impure World Resurrection', it would completely restore his damaged body (except his left eye, possibly because his REAL left eye is
still alive in Kakashi, but more likely just for reasons of drama). Otherwise how could the 1st and 2nd Hokage have been revived in a suitable condition to fight the 3rd, with no sign of any wounds that would have killed them? I have never suggested that Obito's corpse was salvaged and reconstructed, or that he was saved moments before his actual death and in fact such suggestions blatantly contradict my theory (since it's largely based around his instantaneous regeneration, which he wouldn't have if resurrected by any other means). ZETSU DID NOT SALVAGE OBITO. People only say that because Tobi was Zetsu's subordinate before being promoted- that doesn't necessarily mean Zetsu brought him into the organization. In any case, Impure World Resurrection does not require the body of the subject in order to resurrect them, only a sacrifice to be used as a basis for reconstructing the body out of dust and earth.
In addition, people have questioned what value Obito would have to an organization like Akatsuki, given his level of skill when he died. Since Tobi is clearly older than Obito (but seems younger than Kakashi, or even Deidara) its likely he was revived several years BEFORE the series began, but several years AFTER his original death (remember, he died before Naruto was born). Revived at the same age he died at, he has susequently been training to become strong enough (which is why he was initially in a subordinate position up until Sasori's death created an opening). And remember, Obito wasn't THAT weak when he died- he was a one of the ninja apprenticed to the 4th Hokage himself and was fighting against veteran adult ninja in a full-scale war. His teammate Kakashi was already a jounin at that age, so Obito was presumably already a chuunin.
3. People have asked a lot about Rin. Although I'll grant that yes, I screwed up when I implied she reattached Deidara's arm (I'm not perfect), here's EXACTLY what we know about Rin outside of the Kakashi gaiden:
Kakashi implied that she was dead. And even THAT was a blanket statement referring to ALL the people he cared about. And he made that statement BEFORE the gaiden.
Given that my theory requires that she faked her own death, deceiving not only Kakashi but also all of Konoha, this means precious little.
That's it. Rin has not been referenced in ANY part of Naruto other than the Kakashi Gaiden.
Also regarding her potential motives in forming Akatsuki, did I ever say she did? If you read my first post, I proposed the idea that she may be manipulating the Akatsuki leader. If you read my first post CAREFULLY, I only proposed this idea so I could disagree with it, because I knew that if I didn't, someone else will. Going along with my theory that she resurrected the 4th Hokage, who became the Akatsuki leader, why would she do that? Loyalty. So, what would she do after that? Follow him, no matter what he decided to do and irrespective of her own feelings. If you look VERY, VERY CAREFULLY at chapter 329 on the second last page, in the panel where the Akatsuki leader says "And then, we will have achieved our true goal..." you will notice something interesting. The picture behind the speech balloon in that panel is of the unknown kunoichi. Only her right eye is visible (the left is presumably hidden behind her hair, which cannot be seen in the projection) but it is half-closed and downcast, as though hearing the leader's plan (which she would alrady be aware of since the AL is repeating it for Hidan's benefit) causes her pain or sorrow. Assuming the AL IS the 4th and the kunoichi IS Rin, this reaction makes a lot of sense.
I've actually refined my theory quite a lot since yesterday, so to simplify matters I've constructed a simple timeline of the relevant events (minus any actual times, since the series uses no dates and all I have to go with is guesses and estimations). This will summarize my entire theory into an easy to understand form. If a section is in italics, it means this idea is PURE speculation about a possibility, not part of the core theory. Here it is:
1) Several years after the ninja war in which Obito died, Naruto is born, the kyuubi attacks and the 4th sacrifices himself to seal it inside Naruto. Kakashi is able to accept the 4th's death, but Rin cannot come to terms with losing her master after losing Obito and resolves to revive him.
2) An unspecified time later (possibly immediately, possibly several years) Rin has become a very powerful medic-nin, but eventually concludes that the only way to revive someone is through the use of forbidden kinjutsu. This necessitates she leave Konoha, so she fakes her death and escapes. Kakashi believes her dead. (Possibly she runs openly, hunter-nin are sent after her and she fakes her death at their hands.)
3) Rin seeks out Orochimaru, who fled Konoha either before or at roughly the same time as she did, hoping to learn something that may aid her in her search. What she learns is unspecified.
4) Several years after his death, Rin performs 'Summoning: Impure World Resurrection' (or possibly an originally developed variant) to revive the 4th Hokage. She succeeds, but the resurrection is not perfect and causes some signoficant imbalance in the hokage's personality and possibly some memory erosion. With neither of them able to return to Konoha (Rin is a kinjutsu-using heretic and the 4th is a dead man born of kinjutsu), she resolves to follow her old master on his new life. Possibly it is at this stage that she attempts to revive Obito, but the 4th forbids it for any number of reasons.
5) After observing the changes in the world since his death and the growing obsolencence of the ninja in a world at peace, the hokage decides that something needs to be done to restore the value of the ninja. He decides to form an organization of the most powerful ninja he can find, with no allegiance to any country, with the stated aim outlined above in his speech. With Rin as his second in command, he approaches 8 others, including Orochimaru and the newly renegade Uchiha Itachi. In order to secure their cooperation, he disguises his appearance so he is not recognized as the dead 4th Hokage (who was very well known- in chapter 239 the enemy ninja identified "Konoha's Yellow Flash" on sight). Rin does not truly approve of Akatsuki's plan, but remains loyal to her master.
6) At some stage, Orochimaru leaves the organization after a failed attempt to possess Itachi. Deidara, who was possibly Zetsu's partner, becomes Sasori's partner.
7) At some time in the founding of Akatsuki, Rin secretly defies the 4th and revives Uchiha Obito with a more refined version of the jutsu she used to resurrect her master. The mental unbalancing factor is still present, but less serious. Revived at the same age he was when he died (13) Rin instructs him to conceal his identity from the Akatsuki leader and gives him the mask and the new name, Tobi. He is introduced into Akatsuki and becomes a subordinate to Zetsu.
Over time, Obito/Tobi grows older and stronger, mastering the sharingan in his remaining right eye, while the mask conceals this ability from the other members. He becomes a trusted subordinate of the organization.
9) After Sasori's death, Tobi is finally promoted to take his place. You know the rest.
I hope I've made my theory crystal clear now. I STILL have more details to add, but I think I've given you enough to chew on for now. Chew carefully.
^ You just answered the "but he's not the same size/age/cloths as when he died" question, but that leaves another question to be answered.
The modified jutsu made him into a sentient entity composed of a human corpse with a shell of dust and dirt that can aggregate more mass to simulate "growth" and possesses instantaneous regeneration?
That itself would be an overpowered ability...why didn't Rin just create an army of mud golem-giants that she has absolute control over?
By the way, databook page for edo tensei isn't translated (if it is I can't find it), though the user is stated to be Orochimaru (that much I can read).
The entire problem here is that there's too many assumptions that you're making, a good theory makes as few as possible, in that way, the chances for an error is reduced, whereas in your case, any single thing being wrong would invalidate pretty much the entire theory.