Cafe & Issues

  1. Cali
    This is meant to be a group for constructive criticism. Only post comments with good arguments, preferrably not yet mentioned, to avoid redundance. At most, if you really feel the need of voicing your favourable opinion with a post, just use a humble "I agree". Being in this group basically already shows your opinion on the matter.
    Spam or hot-headed bashing will not be tolerated, seeing as it defeats the purpose of making a polite request.
    Needless agressive actions are exactly what we stand against here.

    And, most importantly, join only if you are aware of what happened in both cases and think there was a better course of action rather than instant banning, and therefore would like to have their bans revoked.

    If you don't know, but would like to, please visit the following threads:
    RAW MANGA BOARD jCAFE DOWN - Silverado's case.
    JCAFE DOWN: Is the end of the world approaching? - Morten's case.
  2. Shin_Igami
    This is the kind of group where you pop up out of nowhere and say: I iz JOOR DADDY!!!

    Ja Nai!!! Offending posts will be deleted and offenders kicked out and cursed by my powerful inflatable voodoo doll with which i do all kinds of perverted things day and night. READ THE RULES before you post.

    I think we should put up here posts on the issue we've made before that are relevant - I'll fish up mine.
    The whole situation aggravates me.
    The gantz sub is the biggest out there, and it's been almost a month since we last saw a mod, and that was just steal popping in to catch up on gantz. Mort got banned overnight for starting a thread of "complaint" and silv for "advertising" his website... here we have a "breast implant" advert running for almost two weeks, and it still hasn't been removed. I'm not complaining about our lack of mods - I'd rather have Tet or no one else. For the six months or so he was still around when i first started off, I saw enough of him to know that at least, he did not ban first, talk later.
    Sitting on the rules isn't the way to go. The rules themselves were never intended by whomever put them up there to be unbreachable absolutes. At any rate, it doesn't work that way in real life, not even in BLOODY COURTS OF LAW - Conditions for applying a penalty, especially the HIGHEST penalty are read very narrowly. Even when someone DOES get sent to jail, they still have the opportunity of explaining their situation to mitigate the penalty.
    A mod's purpose is to ensure the proper functioning of the forum. For this purpose, AND THIS PURPOSE ALONE, they are given greater powers. The exercise of their powers is RIGHTFUL, IF AND ONLY IF, its application furthers the proper functioning of the forum. A instant ban, in that sense, is justified IF and only IF there was NO BETTER way at the time of resolving the situation in such a way that the forum would be better off. Like everyone has pointed out, in both Silv's and Mort's case, There were better ways of going about it. A instant ban is here ONLY for repeat offenders, or for people who do unspeakably evil things (like breast implant advertising).
    As for us being more forthcoming to Jyuu because he's the SUPER MOD for this forum, and no one can do a better job... if the Chief Justice of Australia murdered someone, he is no less guilty of murder than the local majistrate would have been. He either messed up, or he didn't. If he did, then he either fixes it himself, or we go to someone else who can fix it. If it can't be fixed, then we should start thinking about going somewhere else - As far as i'm concerned, i've been an active member of the gantz sub for over a year now, i'm also been a paying member for 4-5 months, and all mods have done that I know of is ban people who were active members of my sub.
    I'm not saying Jyuu ought to get the boot - like a instant ban for a "literal" breach of the rules, just "demodding" is only an option in force majeure. Whether this IS force majeure is open for discussion.
    On Jyuu - That's Kane's problem. Jyuu got another mod demodded (Mart, let's ignore the fact that it was justified), got away with banning a "legend" in the scanlating community, and with banning one of the more active members of ST community who is also an increasingly well known scanlator. If he can get away with that, he can get away with anything. Even if his intentions are good, at the end of the day, all that matters is how people perceive Jyuu's action - and if the community starts viewing ST as a website where a "super mod" runs the place like his back yard while the owner consents through silence...
    However, that could be the least of our worries - Silv and Mort are big names in the scanlating community - As far as everyone is concerned, Mort got banned protesting for what was perceived as an unjustified ban of Silv. That Jyuu has an obscure forum rule that he dredged out of the abyss of generic forum rules to back him means jack shit to people who've been around longer that ST's been alive, or even forums, for that matter. If the scanlating community decides to blacklist ST and start putting up "hosting this scanlation on ST isn't allowed, if you got it from there, next time get it from..." in their scanlations, well... I don't need to elaborate on what will happen then, do I?
    ST is politics is one thing, manga community politics another one all together. Which considerations should trump the other is a foregone conclusion.
  3. Cali
    In short, this is what I feel, regarding the matter:

    Silverado got banned for "advertising", and his thread edited in a very agressive tone.
    I don't agree with that. Silverado has been a member of ST for a long while, and in the rare occasions he posted before this event, it was helpful stuff like mangameeya (a mangareader), for instance.
    Jcafe and Mydailymanga are/were sites already big enough without having to depend on advertising, hence why he didn't do it before, and wouldn't do it now. Especially now, because there is no more jcafe.
    As Morten too has mentioned, Silverado was only trying to inform us of what had happened, because not only here, but in several other manga reading community forums, people either knew or had made use of jcafe for their manga needs such as downloading raws.
    Why do we think the action taken by Jyuu in this case was excessive? Because the thread could've been moved, Silverado could have had a warning rather than an instant ban, and, for sure, the agressive lines were needless.

    On Mort's issue:
    The Silverado situation, along with a personal history of mod dissatisfaction led Morten to make an unfortunate comment on the post that got him banned.
    Even if he's right in his complaint, yet another rule breaching ("11. Don't make a thread as a complaint.") shouldn't be the answer.
    Still, in this case, the lines that could lead to a deviation, which would be mod-bashing, could be deleted, leaving the main message only, and a warning to Morten of the error of his approach concerning the matter.
    And, in the same way as Silverado's post, I don't believe advertising was intended.
    That's how I see it, anyway.
  4. sakura_hana

    Now....I checked the rules again:

    it doesn't say anything about advertising though. which I find strange.

    and something else,
    I've read morten' op post again and it only contained links to NEWS on jcafe, which was NOT and could NOT be considered advertising.

    well anyhow,

    these 2 ( as the bust enlargement thread) support our arguments:

    ^ if morten's post was considered advertising, then so should the blinktopia thread. period.

    and so should this:

    even if the guy did not provide a link.

    In conclusion, it's not that morten did not intend to advertise the site but rather that he ultimately did not, by any means.
    !!! also, if I remeber correctly, advertising a site means writing something like this :
    but just giving a link like this :
    is fine.
  5. sakura_hana
    Actually, there WAS another set of rules. It's somewhere in the CC section. I remember I told them during the mart incident to sticky it and provide link for other sections as well because CC was not the center of the universe and people might not know that the rules are actually there. but of course it did not happen.
    but I am SURE the advertisement rule exists. somewhere.>__>
  6. StealDragon
    I only joined htis thread because you guys seem to not know the rules and ways of this site. I don't know what rules you guys arent clear on but let me clear them up for you. If Jyuu hadn't banned Siverado, I would have. Jyuu just got there first. Chit Chat is not the place for any manga discussion at all. And by that I mean even posting the WORD "manga" is liable to get you in trouble. It is exclusively for conversation and discussion of everything that is NOT manga related. Secondly, what he posted could have easily been understood to be advertising. I am under the impression that that the site he was referring to is actually his own site, or a site he has stake in. Even if its not the case the fact that it could be implied already makes the topic off limits. Thirdly, it was the WRONG goddamn forum. This is the part that pisses me off is that you guys are complaining about a punishment that is deserved on multiple levels. This one being the most obvious. We have over fifty fucking forums on this site and then you see fit to just post in the largest one assuming it'll be okay. NO. NO. NO. His post should have gone in the Webbie Ads forum, which is a foruum for exactly what he wanted. You wanna know what happened to other manga forums you put it there. NOT IN CHIT CHAT. Hell at least put it in General Manga/Anime Discussion, shit, there its halfway in the right spot.

    Granted these are some things about this forum that most of you (relative to me, Jyuu, CPR, and the rest of the mod team) may not actually know, since unfortunately they're not actually posted in our specific forum. I will talk to them about possibly changing that and adding a thread that announces every one of the rules, especially the little updated ones that everyone is probably not familiar with.

    As for morten. Having pissed off several moderators in the recent past the amount of rope he has to hang himself with is extremely short. I know this because I was in a similar position once upon a time when I was a regular member. Do not piss off the mods, because truth be told, I had to learn this the hard way, and teach it the harder way... this is not a fucking democracy. Its a privately owned site with a top-down promotion system. So as much as you may hate it, what we do is at our own discretion. Now we have and show every intention of being as fair and reasonable as possible but when you piss off the Super Moderator who already has a reputation of being a hardass then go and post a thread with advertisements in it you are asking to get assfucked. Plain and simple. Maybe if you don't spend time clashing with us on every little thing you might be shown some leniency. This is not the case with Morten. I personally am tired of defending him almost monthly now. I appreciate the time we were in Gantz_Waitingroom together but I cant always pull him out of trouble. I dunno about this "thread as a complaint" thing, I dunno where that is, but the repeat JCafe thread contained blatant advert for an alternative site. Now this is a stupid thing because he could have easily avoided trouble by NOT posting that in the OP and if someone asked him where they could go as an alternative and he replied with MU then its problem solved.

    I really dont know what else to say so I'll let you kids reply to this and go from there.
  7. Urameshi-sama
    My opinion:

    Siverado had been a member here for quite a while before this ban (at least since the beginning of 2006, older than me). He managed to get by this far with few problems and often informed us on different cool projects/applications he'd worked on or was affiliated with. He's the reason I read mangas such as Sanctuary and now use a manga viewer. That being said, I'm surprised that sil made the mistake of posting his thread in CC with the time he's spent here. He knows the forum rules here pretty decently since he didn't get penalized before.

    Honestly, when I saw silverado's thread (a minute before it got locked), I also got annoyed by the misplacement of it. I wouldn't have been as gung-ho as Jyuu, but I would have moved the thread elsewhere.

    The way Jyuu closed the thread was not the way a mod should have closed it. The mods serve as enforcers of the rule and the public face of the forum so that the forum is comfortable and so that the members feel safe & happy. Jyuu's edits didn't only fail to explicitly state why sil's post was in the wrong section (though most of us knew the thread didn't belong there), but they served to demean sil and make a pariah out of him. That sort of mockery is something that the forum rules explicitly doesn't tolerate and is especially offensive when coming from a mod. If we can't trust the mods to be the objective or fair voices on the forum, who can we trust here? That kind of behavior only hurts the forum and it's members. Also, it's not like Jyuu is oblivious of the harm created by such blase treatment. Not too long ago, Jyuu had (in my opinion rightly) helped kick out another mod for the very same abrasive behavior. However, Jyuu's lack of reconsideration or elaboration on the issue so far suggests that he also has the same pride as Mart that prevented the latter from admitting to or fixing his mistakes.

    It's easy to see then how a person who especially holds a lot of respect for silverado and has a history of discontent with the modship here would be pushed to severe anger. He acted out by creating a thread that repeated sil's news in the right section, but included a lot of incendiary mod-bashing remarks. But we all know that attacking the group who you want to make a change (Jyuu) doesn't solve the problem, and morten was banned too.

    Normally in this kind of situation where both parties have made mistakes, I would keep out of intervening or making judgments. However, this ban might be the final spark for morten that may keep him from ever returning here. Having a active member who had made constructive contribution leave, in my opinion, is the worst possible outcome for everyone involved with the forum. So, I ask that Jyuu and Morten have a discussion to resolve this mess. Use a facilitator like another mod if necessary, but don't let things be as they are because then this forum will lose at least one member and leave several others upset.

    Edit: I also want to note that I, along with a lot of people in this group, don't support Mort's original attempts to get Jyuu de-modded.
    Edit2: The 2nd paragraph isn't supposed to sound like 'backseat modding', but to point out that less harsh actions that conveyed the point could have been taken.
    Also, Sakura, your links don't work anymore...
  8. StealDragon
    You guys really have no idea how tired we are of doing the same thing over and over again. Its not even like people are fucking up in new ways, its the same shit all the time. Sorry but we don't have that kind of patience anymore. Jyuu especially.
  9. sakura_hana
    talking about advertising:
    as in REAL advertising. advertising that transformed into a 4 page thread actually. and it's still not locked. and the guy is STILL not banned.

    but never mind.

    Even if its not the case the fact that it could be implied already makes the topic off limits.
    wait. did you take the time to read what I wrote. okay, maybe the links did not work.
    now they do.
    so please tell me the exact difference between those threads and morten's.
    and please read this:
    I've read morten' op post again and it only contained links to NEWS on jcafe, which was NOT and could NOT be considered advertising
    how is it different from the blinktopia one ? how is it different from the evil empire one?

    also, something that quite struck me was that actually the blinktopia one was in CC and remained there.
    and curiously, I just remembered that a lot of time ago I opened this thread:
    Foreign Mangaka
    ^ I did not know the rules at the time, I have to admit.
    But I was not banned. It probably was a thread at the limit.

    Again, this is not about the mods and what they've been through up until now. And this is not only for mort.
    This is a case solved by comparing different situations.
    If the mods are happy and accept their decisions they have done up until now, then logic states that morten should not be banned.
  10. Cali
    @ Steal:
    Patience or not, that does not justify hipocrisy. How can Jyuu flame Silv for breaking the rules, when Jyuu himself is breaking the rules being offensive?
    Also, why do the rules exist again? To maintain order, so that all members can lurk, download their manga or post with no problems. Was Silverado's post offensive to begin with? I say it was just information, to me that seems clear, but it also seems clear that some people somehow don't think so. Ok, it's in their right to have an opinion, even if it's contrary to facts.
    As for why chit-chat? I don't know. It was info about a manga site going down, I don't know, but seeing this description "Talk about anything here.", I wouldn't really feel it's wrong to post info on a site rather than the General Anime/Manga thread, "Talk about manga and anime in threads that are not limited to one title."
    So we have a coherency issue here too.

    And now, as for Sakura's links, here are the working ones (it was an issue with the abreviation system)

    [Originally posted by Sakura_hana]
    Now I checked the rules again Updated Rules
    It doesn't say anything about advertising though. which I find strange, and something else, I've read morten' op post again and it only contained links to NEWS on jcafe, which was NOT and could NOT be considered advertising.

    Well anyhow, these 2 (as the bust enlargement thread) support our arguments:
    Binktopia being run out by Sleepyfans?
    ^ if morten's post was considered advertising, then so should the blinktopia thread. period.

    and so should this:

    Even if the guy did not provide a link. Anyway, this was the thread Anton was talking about apparently xD
    I was so expecting something else, I guess he remembered wrong.

    In conclusion, it's not that morten did not intend to advertise the site but rather that he ultimately did not, by any means.
    !!! also, if I remeber correctly, advertising a site means writing something like this:
    but just giving a link like this:
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