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  1. #61
    Tormentor is offline Senior Member Regular
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    I disagree on some points.

    The dreadnought to me seemed to be doing the job of getting the "stage" ready, in other words, turning the sky red.
    The red sky (IMHO) is only a scenographic effect (it reminds me of "Gilgamesh" in some way), I would like to have it explained on the plain of science and not eschatology. If the sky turned red because it's doomsday so Oku is going down the hill of the "deus ex machina" explanation of what is happening, that's the same to say that he doesn't know where to go and needs a shortcut to avoid deep thinking (if someone watched the ending of "Battlestar Galactica" , sure knows the feeling...)

    The way Oku went through "Phase 2" is erratic: In the first phase the game was something that no one else could see, the material damage was somehow limited (I mean what normal people could see fo the battles), the game was more fascinating, because it was something that could really happen around us.

    When it turned the game in something bigger, that people could see, he run in the field of the alternate reality, but doing it , he never considered the implications of the actions of the battle in the world and kept the level in the way that the actions presented in the manga were not changing the normal flow of time: even if we're in the disciplined Japan, it's incredible that there is no a "state of emergency" or martial laws in act... People goes to school, at work, like nothing has happened... With the scale of destruction in Japan and in Italy (and we don't know what happened in the other countries) the Americans would be on Defcon 2 or Defcon 1. If it's stated that now we're after 9/11, they are just a little reactive on attacks and awaking in the morning with a red sky would mean that we should have seen more planes coming from the continental USA and before the Japs could have said "America is over" a couple of good Hydrogen bombs exploding even if ineffective against the target, those F14 should have carried tactical atomic missiles too. but it can be questionable.

    Then the attack on America should be for psychological effect; imo it's pretty clear by now that it's not a matter of power, but a matter of fun, simply because Gantz technology has proved unbeatable (the soldiers fall, they could make others, an army of clones, or whatever, or just teleport the aliens to nothingness).
    In my opinion is both for the usual effect of an attack on New York and for the (still usual) humiliation on the USA that appears on many old anime for later showing Japan saving the situation. Same think happened in the battle of Rome. I was expecting some good unknown team to save the day, even the Switzerland team, but it looked like only the intervention of the Tokio team changed the situation...

    Now, you saying the aliens can teleport is a wrong assertion, we haven't seen to this day an alien using teleportation technology, HS and KB excluded because they were being manipulated by Gantz.
    It is not a wrong assertion, it can be simply desumed by the way they were disguised, I mean the big ones... I can't figure how they could, for example exchange themselves with the statues in the Trevi fountain (ok, maybe some thousands monkeys did the job at night...) if not with teleport or something more sofisticated then teleport (they actually seems interphasic), in any case, they seems beyond the space travels using space ships, if they have not teleport, they have interphasic technology that is even more sophisticated.

    Also, about who's behind Gantz receiving orders from space, that isn't clear either; we know that the y-gun suposedly teleports the "aliens" to somewhere up above, but whether it's a satelyte, a spaceship, another planet or some other thing is unknow, and it's also unknown whether what lies in that place is the origin, since it could very well be just another creation and the source could be on Earth.
    As i said, I think we won't get accetable answers to these questions


    As for the timeline, now you've got me, but I know there's info on it on the Manual and also a remark about it in one of the chapters after Kurono's ressurected, if I'm not mistaken.
    I know that at least a year has gone by since then. Suposedly Katou was ressurected six months after the budha mission, and the Nuri mission should've been only a few days after the Oni mission, but I'm not sure and I'm too lazy to check the raw of Kurono's ressurection for the any time remarks...
    What I mean with what I wrote is that it clearly looks to me that Oku plaid a game bigger than his possibilities:

    -If he begins in 2000 it HAS to keep the storyline running in 2000/2001, while the last chapters are clearly staged one year ago: for lazyness, lacking funding or whatever he used pictures from googlemaps, showing the Rome of the last year, confusing. I can't say more on the other cities or the Japan stages, in any case the timeline is not consistent. Actually I was happier to see real stages even if in the wrong timeline, while in the last chapters he began to disguise things, showing things that does not exist, like the American carrier (the CVN 89 does not exist) and the plane that crashed in Berlin (I found what is the original plane, will show at the bottom of the page )

    -When he went on "alternate reality mode" showing the battle in the real world he should show more of this alternate world, how thing could change in our world if the Gantz thing existed for real, something like Japan government thinking of an attack from North Korea or Russia and reacting in conseguence ("Watchmen" would be a good reading...)

    -As you also said, a lor of subplots that he didn't expand

    It's because of it that I said that I would have preferred a linear and simpler story, I'm beginning to like the ending of the anime...

    It's very late here, in any case, the plane crashing in chapter 302 is a (badly) disguised version of a 747-446 (or 747-400D) of the Japan Air Lines (Jal) code ja8073 (with the old paint) here are some shots:



    New paint:

    Last edited by Tormentor; 07-06-2009 at 06:09 PM.

  2. #62
    Cali is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^(off-topic)Man... what have you done? Did you just make 4 posts with the same thing...? @@

    Anyhow:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
    "It came out of the sky like a spaceship, that is nonsense because both Gantz and Aliens can simply teleport"
    I still say it's wrong of you to afirm it since teleportation could be a technology that some aliens have, but at least not all of them, the vampires, for instance, clearly don't have it.
    Different aliens have different cultures and technologies.
    Hence, it shouldn't be right to "deduce" the aliens have the technology since we weren't clearly shown it.
    For one thing, they could've been teleported by Gantz itself. That's also in the real of valid possibilities and speculation, even though we know that until now Gantz hasn't teleported any aliens to a fight. (aside from the vampires as hunters rather than prey). But yeah, they could have some different type of technology, I only opposed the first statement because it's not a certain fact.
    By the way: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/desume

    And as for the spaceship comment, I'd say it's a misconception. Gantz has used the term "alien" (seijin) to define the enemies the gantzers have been facing, but at no point we've been clearly told they were from other planets or anything of the sort by either the aliens themselves or one of Oku's "I have answers" characters (such as Sebastian or the factory owner). Let's remember Nishi brought up the possibility that the aliens were also man-made, which, imo, grew significantly more valid after the revelation of the fat woman.

    And the rest, sadly, as you said, is Oku's screw-ups ¬¬'

    But to even think about prefering the ending of the anime... ack! That's almost heresy.
    q=
    Last edited by Cali; 07-06-2009 at 07:02 PM.

  3. #63
    Gunmetal Gray is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    The anime is over though Cali XD

    So did anyone else come up with the speculation of the Gantz Ship being something like the Gantz Mech? It doesn't seem far off if other countries are supposed to be much stronger then the Tokyo team and had finally reached a certain number of points. Though, I don't understand which team would have attacked the U.S.A. team.

    Its not valid though if this is Katastrophe and what it should be doing though.
    Maybe.

  4. #64
    Cyranoone is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    I had a crazy new Idea. the ackashik Rec. are sent to them from a species far in space to help earth get to the next level. But the person ended up using the tech for his own personal gain, and because of that The end or a war is near.

  5. #65
    ikari is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Timeline - thats my topic of choice - the Gantz timeline is spread over 11 months so far, it started in December 2000 (seen on Kurono's student handbook, the month taken from the Manual) with the Onion alien hunt and is now in November 2008 (it was around 28th October 2008 when Kikuchi contacted Sebastian on Nishi's webpage, its now a week after that - early November) -screwed up, but Oku did have the times in the manual as 200X and 200X+1).

    Funnily enough, in the manual Oku gives Reika's bday as being 1984, if the year was 2001 as originally intended, that makes sense (so she'd be 16-17 as presented in the manga), but if thats taken as literal with what Oku's doing now, she'd be 24-25...

  6. #66
    Tormentor is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    ^(off-topic)Man... what have you done? Did you just make 4 posts with the same thing...? @@
    Dunno, I edited it to add the photos, I probably made a mess ^ ^'
    This is pedantic, I hope you cought the sense of my post.

    I still say it's wrong of you to afirm it since teleportation could be a technology that some aliens have, but at least not all of them, the vampires, for instance, clearly don't have it.
    Different aliens have different cultures and technologies.
    About the "aliens" , I call aliens the opponents of the Gantzers in the battles, the term itself could be extended to everything that is not entirely human and yes, we have never seen how they came on the stage, we have never seen them being teleported, my deduction come from the effects of the Y gun (if they are teleported back they should have been teleported on earth, at least the big ones), in any case the sense is that whatever was the technology used to disguise them, it goes beyond the use of spaceships.

    By the way http://www.thefreedictionary.com/afirm


    But to even think about prefering the ending of the anime... ack! That's almost heresy.
    q=
    Maybe it's too early to "affirm" it but the sensation now is that Oku screwed up seriously.
    He has both written and illustrated the anime, while, in my opinion, at a certain point he needed help from a writer, a good one, to stick it together and come to a decent closure.
    I don't know the ending, but if he said "one more chapter" it can be only an eschatological one, and being an atheist it would be (another) delusion.

    Now I'm going to scroll the list here at stoptazmo in order to find something else to read, suggestions are welcome...

  7. #67
    Cali is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tormentor View Post
    This is pedantic, I hope you cought the sense of my post.
    I caught it alright, it's just that I had never seen that word before and looked it up at freedictionary to check it out and thought maybe it wasn't a fitting term. (I'm sort of a maniac with frivolous linguistic stuff)

    About the "aliens" , I call aliens the opponents of the Gantzers in the battles, the term itself could be extended to everything that is not entirely human and yes, we have never seen how they came on the stage, we have never seen them being teleported, my deduction come from the effects of the Y gun (if they are teleported back they should have been teleported on earth, at least the big ones), in any case the sense is that whatever was the technology used to disguise them, it goes beyond the use of spaceships.
    That's the thing, we also weren't told that they are teleported back, only that they're sent up, they might, for instance, be imprisoned rather than banished to where they came from. Hell, they might even be desintegrated for all we know (seriously, we're taking Nishi's word here, and he's pretty vague with "up", he might have just made that up, or just be repeating something someone said before - Kurono says the same thing to Katou even though he isn't sure of it).
    And on the other point, I'll still disagree because whatever technology the aliens use to disguise themselves (the ones who actually use technology rather than having morphing inate abilities), that is far from being less advanced than space travel, we can't even compare it since we don't know what goes on in Oku's mind. But I personally think that clothing, of any sort, be it material clothes or manipulation of light to create illusions, doesn't imply the holders of such technology master space flight. We don't know exactly how the aliens who used shells got their forms (the statues or the Tanaka aliens), so imo, it's either too early to try to decipher the hierarchy of technology in Oku's warped mind or there's actually nothing to discuss since most likely he just thought of it without getting much further ahead on the idea. (it wouldn't be a first).
    Also although maybe a tiring argument, there's the matter of Akira being a born a human and then becoming a vampire, and the vampires being aliens (probably), since they know the alien common knowledge and etc etc. This could mean all the rest of the aliens could be man-made, either by experimentation on humans or artificial creation since the beginning. Just some possibilities.

    Maybe it's too early to "affirm" it but the sensation now is that Oku screwed up seriously.
    Oku usually screws up... seriously, Kurono kills 7 Tanaka Aliens, and only receives points for 6. It takes a dumbass to ignore one's own story. Argh, whenever I think about Oku's lack of attention, I get a bit pissed.
    As for the typo, my bad. Anyhow I consider a typo a mistake a bit different from choice of words...
    The same with your "cought", aye?
    (=
    (I actually commit much more of those than I'd like, sadly)

    He has both written and illustrated the anime, while, in my opinion, at a certain point he needed help from a writer, a good one, to stick it together and come to a decent closure.
    I don't know the ending, but if he said "one more chapter" it can be only an eschatological one, and being an atheist it would be (another) delusion.
    I didn't really get what you meant here, but that might be because I'm sleepy.

    Now I'm going to scroll the list here at stoptazmo in order to find something else to read, suggestions are welcome...
    Well... Bokurano, Shin Angyo Onshi, Mirai Nikki, Monster, Akira, Dead End, Ichi the Killer, Smuggler, Hanaotoko, Ryuguden...
    That's all I can think of, for now. Bear in mind that they are all different genres, but if you'd prefer Gantz like stuff, probably Ichi the Killer, Bokurano and Dead End will be more to your liking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ikari View Post
    Timeline - thats my topic of choice - the Gantz timeline is spread over 11 months so far, it started in December 2000 (seen on Kurono's student handbook, the month taken from the Manual) with the Onion alien hunt and is now in November 2008 (it was around 28th October 2008 when Kikuchi contacted Sebastian on Nishi's webpage, its now a week after that - early November) -screwed up, but Oku did have the times in the manual as 200X and 200X+1).

    Funnily enough, in the manual Oku gives Reika's bday as being 1984, if the year was 2001 as originally intended, that makes sense (so she'd be 16-17 as presented in the manga), but if thats taken as literal with what Oku's doing now, she'd be 24-25...
    I wonder... knowing Oku, the master of slip-ups, maybe it's more likely that he'll change Reika's birth year.
    Though I'm not sure if she's in college or highschool, since at least on ch 299, Reika uses the term "gakkou", which translates just into "school", a general term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranoone View Post
    I had a crazy new Idea. the ackashik Rec. are sent to them from a species far in space to help earth get to the next level. But the person ended up using the tech for his own personal gain, and because of that The end or a war is near.
    Maybe. I'd say we're clear that at least some kind of entity is playing god. Whether it's humans themselves or some alien race, I hope we'll find out as we get to the last arc...

    EDIT: It'd been a long time since I had to edit a post more than 5 times. I feel sort of glad.

    EDIT 2: Also, I've just remembered a few other titles: Freesia, Homunculus, Dorohedoro, Holyland, Historie, Bio-Meat, Kiseijuu (aka Parasyte), Berserk, Shigurui, Bokko, Devilman, Gyo, Uzumaki, Ohikkoshi, Uncivilized Planet, Tropical Citron, Planetes, 2001 Nights, Keep on Vibrating, Kurozuka, 7 Seeds (josei), Sanctuary, Threads of Time...

    Hmmm... I guess those are pretty much all of my favorites.
    You can check them on http://www.mangaupdates.com/ for summaries and genres to help you pick.

    EDIT 3: I know this won't matter for most Gantz readers, but it does matter to me, because it gets me royally f*ing pissed.
    Once upon a time there were discussions on how the transfer actually worked, because on early chapters (onion alien mission, tanaka alien mission), we were shown a transfer based on the "last safe state", and that was countered by arguments of people stating that upon returning from the Budha mission, Kurono remembered Sei by saying "Kishimoto... and my girlfriend... they're all dead". Well, that's WRONG! Someone made a huge mistake with the translation and typed "girlfriend" where it should be "HOJO", yes, Hojo, the model guy. Kurono actually says "Kishimoto... and that guy too... Hojo... dead", meaning the "last safe state" really was the way transfers used to work at least in the initial missions.
    Yeah, I live for Gantz details. And I absolutely hate bad translations.
    How can someone mistake "Hojo" for "girlfriend" is beyond me.
    Last edited by Cali; 07-07-2009 at 10:11 PM.

  8. #68
    Tormentor is offline Senior Member Regular
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    I caught it alright, it's just that I had never seen that word before and looked it up at freedictionary to check it out and thought maybe it wasn't a fitting term. (I'm sort of a maniac with frivolous linguistic stuff)
    Well, i don't know if you're really from Brazil, in any case in my language "desumere" is almost the same of "deduce" and in Portuguese should be "inferir", so in my spaghetti english I used "desume" that has another meaning...

    I didn't really get what you meant here, but that might be because I'm sleepy.
    Ok, Oku is going to describe the "end of the days" or "the end of the world".
    In philosophycal and religious terms is called "eschatology". What I mean is that I won't like an ending depicted in this way: presence of God, Devil, Angels or whatever coming from whatever religion is something that I wouldn't like to see in this manga at all. Instead, I would prefer everything to be described in terms of something coming from the human or alien beings.

    In the last page of 303 is translated "the final chapter begins", it would mean few pages, and I deduced that in few pages there can be only an eschatological explanation, it's a common trick when an author wants to come to an end when the story has become intricated like a Gordian knot , a good cut from some supernatural being and it's done, it's called "Deus ex machina" from the Greek tragedy. In few pages, only the intervention of a God could end it all with a reasonable explanation (in my way of thinking it wouldn't be an explanation at all).
    An example in Gantz is the last "malfunction", an easy trick to give H-Guns to who doesn't deserve them (and not even a single word of explanation for that malfunction), by now it happened like a supernatural intervention



    BTW in the very last page Oku talks about "Next Arc" so maybe someone badly translated that "chapter", could someone check it ? It would have more sense "phase" instead of "chapter" (I would be reliefed)

    For the rest, what I mean is that Oku is playing both the writer and the artist of the story, I'm not so much into the manga world to know if it's common or not, what I know is that the best comics that I've read are made from a couple, a writer and an artist, like Robin Wood and Alberto Salinas for example, or writer Alan Moore and artist Dave Gibbons and too many to count other examples. My opinion is that Oku screws up because he is both writing and illustrating the story, I think that even if Gantz is a very good idea he is focusing more on the drawing then on the story, some tables are wonderful (and I like "his" boobs) but the storyline is suffering. Usually someone that is fond of mangas or cartoons pays a lot of attention to details, a wrong detail brings you back to reality from the story where you were deep into, it's like seeing a watch on the arm of a gladiator.
    It wouldn't be too difficult to keep the timeline consistent, it would also be very interesting to describe the story in an altered timeline. Now in the manga we don't know "when" is the story because too many details are wrong. With his work focused only on drawing (probably) he would keep more attention to details and with a writer we would have a more consistent story. Still, I find Gantz very interesting, but not so interesting like in the past.
    Last edited by Tormentor; 07-09-2009 at 03:11 PM.

  9. #69
    Cali is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^I don't know, I've read other stories with the writer being also the artist and with little to no problems, so I think it's an Oku thing after all. And there are slip ups from the story to the drawings (like Kurono's h-gun still being in the room during one frame after Reika's back at the room and then gone again, same with katou's x-rifle back at the end of Nuri, and etc etc).
    Sometimes, even when there's more than one people in charge of directing the story, epic flaws come to pass, such as in, say, Lost. Anyway, despite those it's still enjoyable, but it makes you wonder where the heck was the authors' attention. At least that's how it is with me.

    I also would like Gantz not to have a religious ending, I was actually quite down when all the "god" stuff started to appear in the manga. But I'll wait and see what'll come out of Oku's mind.

    As for the final text, actually, there is part of it in English and in Japanese:
    The English text says: "to be continued to Gantz Final Phase", and on the ball: "Gantz Final Phase, 09.10.01 Start". And, although the Japanese text says "saigo shô", which literally means "last chapter", it's also followed by "start" written in katakana, so I'd say it's the last arc rather than the last chapter.

    Now, for the last bit: yeah, I'm Brazilian, and "inferir" is right, but phonetically, the closest word to "desumere" would be "deduzir", I suppose. Anyhow, I apologize for my rude tone, it wasn't completely intended; it was actually more on the pompous side.

  10. #70
    ikari is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    On Reika's age (seriously, Cali and Tormentor, I dont have the time to read your dissertations...), I'd say its more likely she is 16, she is obviously in high school from one of the earlier chapters (she's in a school uniform and 16-17 is too young for college unless she is a genius, which she pretty much is not...) plus I'd say 16 rather than 17 as she saw Kurono as an older guy, the whole proposal in the bath shows she thought he was 18+, but also since my comp has died I've lost the Manual and the colour poster which showed her bday (and b-w-h measurements if I remember correctly) also had the day and month, so if anyone can put that page up since we're in early November (2001 based on the date given there) in Gantz timeline we can know for sure.

 

 
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