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  1. #241
    Cali is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    First of all, yeah, of course they were dumb also due to being under the effect of drugs, but what I mean was that most likely they weren't bright from the start judging by the reaction of some other person, namely Kuwabara, also under the effect of drugs that was by no means dimmed by them, since he managed to stay alive by acting properly, avoiding the blow - may I remind you, WHILE raping an alien AND suitless. That was my point.

    And taking individual ability out of the equation is pretty much nullifying all this debate.
    I beg your pardon, but to me it sounded like you was taking out the individuality factor here, because you were talking about the effect of drugs in general, disregarding my mention that most likely those who act in a dumber way than the Osakan main characters were not that smart to begin with. We could get into another argument about how knowing your limitations or being arrogant shows stupidity or not, and the level of individual stupidity and/or arrogance shown by the Osakans that fundamentally lead to the death of almost the whole team.

    As for Oka, I believe you're discarding what I wrote. Anyhow, "Nothing in his fighting style that suggest he was on drug". If you hadn't seen Kuwabara smoking marijuana, then you'd say he wasn't on drugs, then? Because he fought pretty much better than Oka imo. And of course it disproves your argument in case he was indeed on drugs and managed to live, because it'd mean that being on dope by no means gets you certain killed even against all powerful foes. And if you primarily focus on individuality and how those enemies are different from these enemies, then the whole point in comparing their performance was null to begin with.

    I'm not disagreeing with this "The most ideal state of mind in fighting aliens is somewhere in the middle. Your mind isn't clouded by fear, but clear to think, fight smartly and safely.", only this "They have everything to fear from drugs in this mission." and this "The only way that the Tokyo team killed Nuri while Osaka team died was because their heads were clear, they thought up a strategy."

    And what do you mean "some member of the Osakan team fought the way they did without the drugs and getting a better hold of themselves is a great thing for them"? Because the only one who wasn't on drugs and fought reasonably well was Nerdo and maybe Oka. We can't know in Oka's case. Just as we can't know how exactly was the fight between him and Nuri.

    I also realize my disagreement on the previous post could've used better development, especially with the "completely disagree" bit since I do agree on some points.
    While drugs do put some under a dangerous state of mind, it might also improve in some sense the perception of others, or, at the very least, give them a recklessness that might prove or not useful to a degree. You can't really judge the effects and the performance based on a general idea, hence why I emphasized Kuwabara's performance. Different kinds of drugs could have very different effects.
    The guy who calmly marched to his death without both his arms was under a completely different effect from Kyou, who was excited and active. So, depending on how the individual competence cope with the individual effect of the drugs, the result might be favorable, and not always leading to demise and stupid acting.
    Last edited by Cali; 02-27-2009 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #242
    Whatapyro is offline Senior Member Regular
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    ^ Exactly, we cant just lump all drugs in to one big pot and say they all have the same effect on people (which I assume would be diminished capacity). During WW2 the german army would commonly take amphetamines which could be used to give gantzers huge boosts of energy as well as increasing focus (ideally anyway). This is contrary to say heroin which is a opiod which produces euphoria and apathy as well as being a strong pain killer.

    The osakan team didnt take drugs to enhance their performance but rather for recreational use. Their real fault though was being overconfident and not working together (both within their own team and with tokyo)

    Also, iirc didnt oka originally come up with the idea for how to defeat nuri?

    I guess a major factor would be whether gantz restores their bodies so that no tolerance/addiction has been developed.

  3. #243
    LotW89 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Isn't it the time for the spoilers of the next chapter??

  4. #244
    BOBO THE SPACEMONKEY is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    I can't see dope increasing your abilities, actually it's the opposite...riods do... . The only positive thing would be recklessness, which is a good thing to have, at least to some degree. Stress out on fear and you're fucked in gantz.


    If you hadn't seen Kuwabara smoking marijuana, then you'd say he wasn't on drugs, then? Because he fought pretty much better than Oka imo.
    Realy? Oka killed Nuri like 3-4 times on his own. Only problem was, that he was killed offscreen after Nuri got a bit more serious. And in all fairness, I doubt that any human would stand a chance against Nuri 1on1. I'm actually surprised, that there were some left overs of oka, looking at all the explosions from the laser eyes and the collapsing building.

    On another note: it's actually quite funny who HS dodged his laser eyes with ease, but was cut by minor aliens several times.

  5. #245
    Shani Andras is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    It didn't seemed like it was easy for him to dodge the laser...he was sweating, and he doesn't sweat a lot, because he is uber cool...right?

    And Kuwabara was smoking weed, you can see him doing that in the chapter 243 (one of my favorites of the Osaka mission) for the first time.

  6. #246
    Tormentor is offline Senior Member Regular
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    Dudes, you missed the point, I was not talking about effectiveness of drugs in clearing the missions but about the visual effect. Actually the Osakan team smoking Mary or injecting heavy drugs was one of the funniest moment of the manga IMHO, something that put a large smile on my face (ROFL). I need something like that. All this butchering of Gantzer and dismemberfest, yes, it's dramatic and well depicted. All those crying Gantzers too, nothing against it.

    But I need something like a Teheran team with fucking mujaheddins on drugs, someone that after been hit yells something like "Is this all you can do ? My mom do better! Take this !! ALLAH AKBAR!!!"

    Yes, I've a twisted mind, there's nothing I can do about it...

  7. #247
    twinoceans is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    First of all, yeah, of course they were dumb also due to being under the effect of drugs, but what I mean was that most likely they weren't bright from the start judging by the reaction of some other person, namely Kuwabara, also under the effect of drugs that was by no means dimmed by them, since he managed to stay alive by acting properly, avoiding the blow - may I remind you, WHILE raping an alien AND suitless. That was my point.

    And taking individual ability out of the equation is pretty much nullifying all this debate.
    I beg your pardon, but to me it sounded like you was taking out the individuality factor here, because you were talking about the effect of drugs in general, disregarding my mention that most likely those who act in a dumber way than the Osakan main characters were not that smart to begin with. We could get into another argument about how knowing your limitations or being arrogant shows stupidity or not, and the level of individual stupidity and/or arrogance shown by the Osakans that fundamentally lead to the death of almost the whole team.

    As for Oka, I believe you're discarding what I wrote. Anyhow, "Nothing in his fighting style that suggest he was on drug". If you hadn't seen Kuwabara smoking marijuana, then you'd say he wasn't on drugs, then? Because he fought pretty much better than Oka imo. And of course it disproves your argument in case he was indeed on drugs and managed to live, because it'd mean that being on dope by no means gets you certain killed even against all powerful foes. And if you primarily focus on individuality and how those enemies are different from these enemies, then the whole point in comparing their performance was null to begin with.

    I'm not disagreeing with this "The most ideal state of mind in fighting aliens is somewhere in the middle. Your mind isn't clouded by fear, but clear to think, fight smartly and safely.", only this "They have everything to fear from drugs in this mission." and this "The only way that the Tokyo team killed Nuri while Osaka team died was because their heads were clear, they thought up a strategy."

    And what do you mean "some member of the Osakan team fought the way they did without the drugs and getting a better hold of themselves is a great thing for them"? Because the only one who wasn't on drugs and fought reasonably well was Nerdo and maybe Oka. We can't know in Oka's case. Just as we can't know how exactly was the fight between him and Nuri.

    I also realize my disagreement on the previous post could've used better development, especially with the "completely disagree" bit since I do agree on some points.
    While drugs do put some under a dangerous state of mind, it might also improve in some sense the perception of others, or, at the very least, give them a recklessness that might prove or not useful to a degree. You can't really judge the effects and the performance based on a general idea, hence why I emphasized Kuwabara's performance. Different kinds of drugs could have very different effects.
    The guy who calmly marched to his death without both his arms was under a completely different effect from Kyou, who was excited and active. So, depending on how the individual competence cope with the individual effect of the drugs, the result might be favorable, and not always leading to demise and stupid acting.
    You on mars while I'm on Jupiter. Comparing performance between individuals has never been my intention. Comparing performance between different individuals to lead to a conclusion about the effect of drugs is EXACTLY what I'm criticizing. I've never disagreed that drugs put you in a reckless state that might be useful since it puts out your fear. As for Oka, we are completely on two different planets. I"m NOT stating that he's NOT on drugs. So your point to counter that statement is moot because the statement never existed in the beginning. My Oka statement has 2 purposes:

    1) that if Oka was on drugs, and died, it still doesn't help my cause like you said that it might have.
    2) that the point isn't about looking at the outcome to lead to conclusion about drugs, but HOW the drugs effect their fighting. That's why even if Oka was high, it still doesn't help my point, because he didn't fight recklessly like he was high.

    As for George or Kuwabara, again, they fought with their individual abilities. They smoked weed or not has nothing to do with it. If they did, it doesn't disprove my point, because their success come from their individual abilities. Again, my point is not to examine their success or failure, and lead to a conclusion about drugs, but rather HOW they fought with the effect of the drugs. George, Oka, Kuwaraba could not be used NEITHER for PRO or CON for my argument, since they fought and prevailed with their own ability and didn't let the effect of drugs overcome them. It's the same thing as saying some people crossed the red light, but due to their swift reflex, they didn't get into a car crash, that must mean crossing red light is good.

  8. #248
    Shin_Igami is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    ^I hate to say this but... I do not comprehend... The point behind this argument is that drugs are bad, yes? Arguably, performance enhancers are good, but unless you keep pumping yourself on them (and thereby hardwiring yourself for an even harder fall when they run out) then you risk being hit by the backlash when they wear out. The thing is if we all agree that drugs are bad, what was the point of all that discussion? I do not comprehend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Popothepenguin View Post
    its kinda pathetic how much time people (including me) on this thread spend thinking about every little thing that goes on in Gantz
    Quote Originally Posted by Shin_Igami View Post
    I suppose it comes from not having any new Gantz to talk about... I feel like a Junkie... o.O

  9. #249
    Nu_Delic is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOBO THE SPACEMONKEY View Post
    I can't see dope increasing your abilities, actually it's the opposite...riods do... . The only positive thing would be recklessness, which is a good thing to have, at least to some degree...
    Another possible benefit would be the a decreased sensitivity to pain. I saw a crackhead get smashed in the head with a brick while he was already on the ground and he rose up like a freakin' zombie. Of course different drugs have different effects on different people but if you feel no pain there's no telling what you could do.
    Last edited by Nu_Delic; 02-28-2009 at 06:11 PM.

  10. #250
    Popothepenguin is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    @twin oceans: Yeah, I totally agree with you. When I do crack, there's moments where I'm just like shit, gotta turn the crack button off cause I need to focus here. Performance of the individuals has everything to do with what you just talked about. There's no "I'm not going to let drugs overcome me". They all did drugs but the stronger ones prevailed. You can't blame the Osaka team's failure on drugs alone but rather their carelessness. The drugs probably had little hinderance on their performance and it was their attitude that got them killed. They killed for fun rather than trying to survive. It's like they were hunting rabbits and then a few lions came out and caught them off guard.

    You stated earlier that they failed because of their use of drugs. The reason that Osaka failed was because of an attitude and cannot be solely attributed to drugs. The drugs may have killed all the newbs who were not able to fight as well but that doesn't have anything to do with the outcome of the mission. Newbs always die, it's Gantz. (except for Inaba, that fuckers like the king of the newbs). The outcome of the mission was determined by the individual talents of the stronger ones like it always had and none of them were able to kill the Nuri either because they were careless or because Nuri is a frickin powerhouse thats bordering invincible.

    Osaka individuals may have been effected by the drugs, but the entire Osaka teams failure does not hinge on the fact that they did drugs.

 

 
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