11-23-2008, 03:42 PM
I think that Theory is interesting, though i don't see the aliens as such a side product.
If Gantz can easily create Aliens like Nuri, why not giving 100 Nuri an H gun and a bike and do the same conquest without the training of the gantzers, who might even refuse to be used?
11-23-2008, 05:06 PM
^Because Intelligent lifeforms have "free will" and eventually strike off on their own? Who's to say the bosses right now were not made to kill "weaker" experiments who were running amok, and then decided to do as they pleased, and then stronger monsters had to be made to kill them... and endless cycle of ever increasingly powerful aliens running around... having humans seems to be safer bet; there are lots of em, and armed properly (making an H-Gun is easier than making an alien I presume), they have a habit of overcoming all odds.
Originally Posted by Popothepenguin
Originally Posted by Shin_Igami
11-23-2008, 06:44 PM
shin_Igami put a perfect theory for Gantz using humans prior aliens.
I like the "gantz overlord world domination" idea but an army must be loyal, and how you earn loyalty if you are a d***? Oh, and don't even come saying things like "corruption" (or "power corrupts") or "Gantz only needs to offer the gantzers a place of control after the attack". It would be *shallow* and *not even a bit original*. Gantz doesn't have ideology to have an army.
I believe the "attriction war" fits better, even the "biological experiment that went wrong wrong wrong" theory...
11-24-2008, 06:02 AM
^Well, you can't really say Gantz does not have an ideology. We don't know what Gantz thinks, we don't know what is Gantz, we now know it's man-made, therefore the ones who made it might have an ideology.
Also, an army doesn't really need to be loyal, doesn't even need to buy your ideology, as long as they do their job; the gantzers, forced to play the game either to survive get free or whatever, are a perfect army, they are fed by the idea of a solution when they get their 100 points and so they'll kill the aliens, even if it's not to their liking, like Katou.
11-24-2008, 05:44 PM
Good point about armies. One thing. We don't know if Gantz is human or what ever. I bet the factory workers are dead too. No sick days, overtime or pay.
Originally Posted by Cali
11-24-2008, 11:16 PM
Have you guys ever watched "Colossus: The Forbin Project"? Basically, it's about this Forbin guy who develops the smartest AI computer in the world, which overcomes it's creator's expectation and pratically set out on its own, to rule and embetter the world.
My point: we don't know what "Gantz" is, but we know it was made by mankind, for the narrator says so in chapter 285. It might be entirely man-made, it might have alien components. It might have surpassed the original intent, but then again, it might still be subordinated to its creators.
11-25-2008, 06:58 AM
What you suggest is that gantz have it's own agenda, it's own ends, not an ideology. We don't know anything about Gantz origin and ends: but everyone knows that they exist somewhere and Oku may show us someday (soon or later, unless he uses the cliffhanger stuff). Ideology is a whole different thing, Gantz force people to do things, he doesn't even try to make people want to do things for him (a very very very shallow idea of ideology, my bad).
Originally Posted by Cali
And I was talking about the "Gantz world domination" stuff, it wouldn't be Gantzers x Aliens, but Gantzers x Humans. Gantz would need a way to convince and earn the loyalty to put every Gantzer fighting against fellow humans to give world control to a guy inside a black ball (or any Force behind him). Why would you want to get free if "getting free" would mean "i'm alone in a world I helped to destroy/conquer"? And are you sure that EVERY gantzer would be greedy enough to help Gantz at this? Katou surely wouldn't.
11-25-2008, 08:19 AM
^We do know something about Gantz origin, it's manmade, as stated in the initial narration of chapter 285.
I suggested Gantz might have its own agenda in another post, which wasn't really related to this discussion, but that isn't necessarily opposite to what's being debated here.
Ideology is a set of conditioned thoughts to which one chooses to bow to, even if the person is not aware it's something imposed to a degree and that's something that it's chosen by people themselves; it's not really a common tendecy to have "self-awareness", though I'm pretty sure I could've used better wording here.
Anyway, re-stating again what I theorized: people behind Gantz might have an ideology, Gantz himself is picky; weak people go down. That on itself can be treated as part of an ideology. I didn't really say Gantz has one, I was just considering the possibility. Personally, I'd be happy if Gantz had no real purpose at all and were doing it just for fun, but I think it's unlikely after recent chapters.
As for the army thing, you were the one who said having an army implies having an ideology. Maybe that was not your intention, but that's what I got from this sentence here on your other post: "Gantz doesn't have ideology to have an army". What I defended is the existence of an army without ideology is valid, contrary to what you said, and in case we assume the existence of armies to depend on ideology, we can't really affirm Gantz doesn't have one simply because we don't know nearly enough.
Also, even if Gantz has an ideology, as stated, it doesn't really need to try and convince its hunters of so; they are merely tools. You don't try and convince your machine gun that you're killing this or that race because of this and that.
As for Gantz against humans and aliens alike, I've made some posts on the matter before. I don't think Gantz gives a shit to humans, but is human made. Which means either the people behind it believe in their own superiority, killing lots of people who they do not judge worthy - one can only really feel compassion towards another if he/she can identify themselves with the person - or Gantz, the ball/man thing has overcome its own creatores and declared its own goals, not caring about aliens and humans. We know Gantz isn't a "good guy" because it's not set out to defend mankind, that to me was obvious with the Shinjuku massacre.
As for your last point, you're confusing things there. Katou and Kurono are ignorant to Gantz intentions, they've always been, and they'll likely still be for a while. What I meant is that every newbie gantzer, in general, is lead on by either the promise of power, freedom or salvation of loved ones. Even someone who doesn't like killing, such as Katou, had to kill in order to save his friend, and will have to kill in order to go free, which is still his priotiry, as he himself told Kurono after the revival.
And if by any chance Gantz throws a mission with the humans as targets, it'll likely turn out just like the Tae mission, or the Nurarihyon mission - where the vampires killed their "kin". It'd be kill or be killed, they'd have no choice but to do so or die themselves, and if they chose to die themselves, that'd make no difference to Gantz; that ball is powerful enough; having the ability to destroy and recreate matter to me is pretty much as much godlike as one can be.
11-25-2008, 10:44 AM
The end justifies the means. Don't forget, that team tokyo would still be tanaka-alien-mission-material without the massacre. Imo, Gantz rather has a decent team, that can pull smth of when the catastrophe strikes down and not some newcomers. Who knows...The people killed in the massacre would've died in the catastrophe anyway. So what does it matter...let them live a bit longer and have a weak team, that must be carried by other teams or have a decent team in exchange for a few people, that would've died either way. In fact, this team allready saved a few thousand people, just remember the lightning oni, yokais or other aliens who were hostile towards normal people, fair trade imo.
Originally Posted by Cali
Maybe the catastrophe is only about Aliens of every kind (even onion alien like aliens) to become hostile towards human. Afterall earth seems to be invaded for years allready.
11-25-2008, 11:56 AM
Maybe Gantz make humans appear like aliens...
You know, Gantz even places bombs in their head, so he probably can have influence on the visions of the Gantzers to see humans like aliens.
Think about it^^