On Gantz transfers and memory
Most of this has already been discussed one way or another in various threads, since it envolves various aspects of transferring and memory issues.
I was re-reading vol 12 and noticed Gantz can really transfer without resourting to the "last safe position", at least that's what happened to Izumi and Kurono before going to the room to undertake the Dino hunt. Not only is Kurono loaded the same way as he was after the bullet had hit him, but he also retains his memory of being hit. As this hadn't happened before except maybe for the Budha arc - in which case the last safe position still aplied, regardless of whether the memory was the latest actual memory or in accordance to the last safe position -, maybe this is actually an "evolution" in Gantz saving device?
Izumi's case is a bit more interesting, he wasn't sitting on the floor at any time, and he was loaded pretty much like that, quite a curious thing. If Gantz can pull different positions like that and can also modify specific parts of the memory - the wiping out of Gantz related memories after someone choosing freedom - there should be no limitation or restriction to how he deals with the transfers other than maybe fun or convenience. Katou's ressurection for instance had his last memory being neither his last actual memory nor his latest safe position memory (last safe position: Katou rolling on the ground before his arm got cut – latest memory, as shown in ch218: him looking up to the sky on the temple stairs).
Concerning Tae's memories being altered, here we have a delicate issue. She was never a gantzer to begin with and had her memories erased. It's interesting noticing that contrary to saving and loading features seen in the missions, Tae and Kurono's memories were erased, or putting it more adequately, blocked, like Izumi's, so by making attempts to recall it or by passing through certain specific events (fighting the vampires, for instance), one can reatain those lost memories - which seemingly shouldn't be the case with the save/load feature used in transfers (more on this below).
Now, has Kurono really lost only his memories of Gantz or all memories since before meeting and helping Katou at the train station?
At first, I though Gantz could wipe his existence from Kurono's memories, but still maintain other parts of it being intact, like the nickname he was given during that time, Daytime Lantern, but now, since there aren't really well defined time markers within the manga, I supose he might have gone to school and then was called as such and went along with it, since he pretty much thought himself as being useless. The latter makes more sense to me lately, but in case Gantz has indeed more specific memory erasing resources, then he wiped out Kurono's memories of Tae and her memories of Kurono just out of sheer maliciousness.
And whether it was Hiroya’s fluke or not, the image of Kurono blowing the Tanaka boss is shown as he remembers surviving without his suit, contrary to when he came back from that same mission, still running before getting injured when the boss caught him, and with no recollection of what happened after. (vol 12, vol 05)
All this is pertinent, among other things because for instance, if the last save state would actually use the memory only up to that point, HS would not remember ever owning him getting back his finger to Gantz or Nishi being saved by Katou. The same goes for the outcome of the budha arc, whether Sei's sacrifice was in vain or not to Kurono's consideration (if he claimed his "girlfriend" was dead out of remembrance or just jumped to conclusions - both points of view have valid arguments to them).
On this matter, there is also a very interesting theory proposed by RedAdonis in which the transfer conditions would be a state of calmness of mind, though Kurono's transfer at the end of Tanaka mission proves this wrong.
Reading older threads is really rewarding. For instance, we know that even though zoku A (Tetsu) was killed off-room, he's still on the list of dead people. That could prove Kurono being revivable, but it doesn’t for it’s not certain whether the dead people list and the memory list is the same and, the main issue, we don’t know if Gantz keeps the “file” on people who’ve chosen freedom. Notice also that for the dead people list there's an order of people, in which this particular line might be worth noticing: priest/katou/kishimoto/homo/sadako (vol 8, ch 90) while the memory list Kurono asks for has Tae right between Homo and an unidentifiable person. One would think the list is based on the order people die, but that's not so at all. When Nishi first shows the list of dead people, megane/four eyes comes before yakuza a, which was the first to die (aside from Goro) and right besides him, yakuza b, so it's not about considering left to right or otherwise. Also when Kurono aks for the list after the budha mission, we see it doesn't follow the order the people died as well. The only known order so far is missionwise, which makes it odd that Tae would be put next to Homo unless it was to enphasize Katou, Kishimoto and Sei, who were on the same line, thus adding to the Gantz favoritism theory, inducing Kurono to stay in the game to revive the people he cared about.
As a last remark, Gantz has control of what he’s transferring since Kurono was touching Katou at the end of the very first mission and Kurono was also holding Tae after she was killed and the transfer only worked for one of them at a time in both cases.
On the issue of Izumi - there is also the fact that Gantz waited for him to die again before summoning him. If Izumi was still in memory, and Gantz merely wanted strong people, he could have just "deliberately" duplicated Izumi. Of course, it can also be argued that even though Izumi was in Gantz memory, he was not duplicated to protect Gantz's secrecy.
Conjecture, as always, only ever gets us this far...
Last edited by Shin_Igami; 04-20-2008 at 08:05 PM.
Originally Posted by Popothepenguin
Originally Posted by Shin_Igami
^ I think Izumi's case is really really interesting. Of course, all conjecture but... he's chosen freedom once, and he was the leader, so we can assume he cared for others at least to some degree; the serious looks on the faces of the three team mates in his flashback, at least to me, give off a feeling of... dunno, something like "that's it", more or less like Kurono's team before he leaves but without the happy attitude. Were that to be true, Gantz choice of Izumi wasn't only because he was strong but also to use his new messed up personality. If he chose freedom before, certainly he had a good reason for doing so and most likely, like Kurono and Tae, that reason vanished and whatever development Izumi's personality had during his first time in Gantz was lost, or at least most of it. The new Izumi went as far as killing innocent people driven by his obsession with the black ball. When he was talking to Kurono, it seemed like he really wanted Kurono to end that there, as if a last attemp of redention, also excusing himself of the guilt by placing it on Kurono for not stopping him right then and there.
Even though Izumi knew about the suits and the bikes and swords, he doesn't think of anyone other than himself. If we think on it considering the Gantz having fun with humans theory, a selfish character like that amuses Gantz, the same would go for Nishi and most of the Osakans.
Well... guess I went a bit over what I intended on saying at first so that's it for now.
Gantz is like a God-archtype. He has control over everything that goes on with the gantzers, but moves them manipulatively through other means other than force. So, instead of just retransfering Izumi, he used him for the greater purpose of Gantz. Just a thought.
I just realized the save points. That's why Kei couldn't remember killing the bird. Also, I'm still wondering if Gantz keep the memories of the people he frees. Because wasn't Gantz talking to Izumi and told him to find strong people? So that would mean Gantz would have a certain amount amount up to a certain extent, at the very least.
EDIT: I only really meant Izumi,but since Gantz was talking to him means he has memory of him. We still don't know if the memory is still in the database,but I think it is still. So I'm assuming that there's some form of memory of Kei I'm just speculating though.
Last edited by y0ungSir; 04-22-2008 at 12:31 AM.
^a "certain amount" of what? (Use the edit feature to clarify, please, try not to post something new.
That said, I am assuming that you are refering to Gantz talking to Izumi, and based on that , you are trying to say that Gantz does keep track of people after they are freed?
about Izumi, there is evidence that the memory wipe isn't 100% effective. It doesn't block feelings, e.g. Kurono crying over Tae's picture, I think? And is in tune with Izumi's statement that no matter what he did, he could never forget the feel of hunt.
I pmed you about this earlier Cali, but I'll elaborate some more here (again, conjecture)
Izumi claims he was never able to forget the "feel" of the hunt. However, we can also draw a parallel to Kurono in the Buddha Arc. Arguably, he too must have enjoyed the "feel" of the hunt when playing "human bullet". So it is possible (supporting your theory here) that Izumi had a similar experience, but forgot the ultimate outcome of the mission (mass slaughter of all/most gantzers) that caused him to bail, but not the "feel"... but then again, we are still talking conjecture. Personally, I'd rather it remained this way. Much as I'd want to know what happened Izumi, I don't want Gantz to go Naruto on us with a "young Kakashi" Phase of its own. A very cheap way to keep Fans hanging, especially when most of what happened can be pieced together with the few hints dropped here and there.
Last edited by Shin_Igami; 04-20-2008 at 08:17 PM.
Originally Posted by Popothepenguin
Originally Posted by Shin_Igami
It seems to me by Kurono remembering the Tanaka Big Bird blowing up that when injured hunters are transferred at the hunts end, it seems that the although the body is kept in a save point, the rest of the memory is stored and then wiped as if the hunter was given freedom.
For example as stated above, when Kurono was transferred after the hunt he was in the position of running out of the building but his memory remembered everything that happened after but was wiped by Gantz (probably to save the hunter from shock or something).
Also about Kurono and Ikari being transferred not in their safe positions for the Kappe hunt seems to me that Gantz for Izumi just transferred him on death like a regular noob. It also seemed to me that the same went for Kurono as he actually died then, but for some reason Gantz gave him a second chance (something Kurono refers to himself and also showing Gantz probably knew that Kurono has great potential, was a good hunter who had a bad run of luck, delete whichever you dont agree with)
Yes, Izumi and Kurono were transferred like the new guys, but from what we've seen in the very first mission, when you're loaded into the room for the first time, you're loaded a bit before your actual death - hence Kurono and Katou still in their running poses. And, after the mission, we came to the realization that Gantz loaded the hunters in their last safe position, but we only get to the memory issue at the end of the Tanaka arc. And then we might have seen it again when Kurono got back from the budha mission, since it's not exactly clear if Kurono said his girlfriend is gone because he remembered Sei dying or he just came to that conclusion (MGB has already defended this point before and so have I some time ago).
If we think transfer should be the same, both into the room and back from missions, and assuming the last safe position only stores the memory up to that point - including Katou's revival for instance - then it's strange Kurono remembers being hit by the bullet.
As for Izumi being loaded in an odd position, his last safe one was standing after shooting Kurono and we never really see him sitting, but maybe he just got loaded and sat...
In any case, having your memories wiped out is different than being loaded in an earlier state, the memory is only blocked in the first case, and the memory shouldn't even get to be stored in the second case. However, there was that one time Kurono remembering surviving without his suit and the image shown was of him blowing up the boss.
I eagerly wait for the safe return of HS and Nishi and hopefully some mention of either of them concerning events that happened after they were wounded or the opposite, no recollection at all. This way we get to know whether the memory conservation depends on a set of fixed rules or just Gantz amusement. Personally, I'm of the opinion Gantz doesn't commit mistakes and that when he makes duplicates like Kishimoto, he does it fully aware he's making a big mess, but if the 271 Sunday spoilers are true, then this theory goes down the sewer anyway. (edit: it's a good thing that summary wasn't for real)
@ Popo: Yeah, I agree with you on that one. Though since there is more than one ball, and the "rules" changed in a very odd manner back at the end of the Oni mission, I think there's something greater than Gantz and/or the balls behind it, but that's also just a thought.
Last edited by Cali; 04-21-2008 at 08:21 AM.
just call oku to make sure wkkkkk just kidding
Also did anyone notice that it was only when the Oni Boss was left that Gantz shut down and the rules changed?