Just a little point:
The Giant Buddha Kurono killed from the inside is worth 5 points in the manga since he also killed one of the original twin statues that are worth 3 points each and Kurono got 8 points for the hunt.
In the anime he killed both of the twin statues and the Giant Buddha, so for his 8 point result, they were probably retconned to 2 points each whilst the Giant would be 4 points.
^Ikari, my friend... a most interesting piece of information... could you somehow explain to me how the above is related to "transfer and memory"? ... nyuhuhu
Looking at the discussion between Cali, and Dust:
You really had it going good Dust, even though you do sound a wee bit Fanboyish here and there. However, your last post is... almost completely... wrong...
Originally Posted by Duststorm
1) Izumi, unless our translation is completely wrong, only ever got to a 100 points.
2) Izumi did not exceed the 100 point line
3) What is generally accepted as Izumi's last memory in Gantz is shown to us in chapter 135 - three guys there, No nishi, and black ball shows Izumi 100 points...
As for Izumi enjoying the fight, and not fighting for surviving, well, yet again, I beg to difer - he looks very focused on surviving in his last battle, and not at all concerned with enjoying. Actually, the moments were he is shown enjoying the fight are the exception, rather than the rule. It may be his stated motive, but his "battle lust" is far beneath the level of the Osakans
As for the Chibi Alien, it's good speculation, but I am not convinced - in 133-134, when Izumi is first warped into Gantz, he has some doubts, and when he is actually warped in, he gets all excited - It's a "yes! I was right!" feeling, and encountering the Chibi Alien might have generated the same effect in him "yes! I am not imagining things! Gantz exists!". I am not saying he does not like the fight, but the urge to fight might not be the only thing that prompted his excited reaction. However, to tell me Izumi got most of his memory back upon seeing the Chibi Alien... that's a MAJOR jump down the argumentative line. Personally, I don't think you can read that much into it - the bulk of Izumi's Gantz memories are still clouded, I believe. He remembers Nishi being a part of Gantz, but that's about it. He remembers a few odds and ends (how to use the suit, and the additional features of the Katana is all of it as far as I am concerned), but there is absolutely NO evidence to substantiate ANY claim that he remembers more. Hell, for all we know, he might not even remember how he died the first time around.
I leave it up to you to decide how much of your arguments this shoots down...
Sorry to have been the one to break it to you...
Even so, good stuff man - You should check the showdown Hadou and I had on the Kurono FAQ Page if you are looking for inspiration... now that was epic
Last edited by Shin_Igami; 04-29-2008 at 06:24 AM.
Originally Posted by Popothepenguin
Originally Posted by Shin_Igami
Okay then. Just to get things moving a bit.
Concerning "Gantz can do everything" theories.
He has detailed info on all aliens, their positions and most likely also their skills.
(Okay, we ain't sure about whether he nicknames the aliens or not, but that's pratically irrelevant). At the very least, he has enough info to render a certain values of points to each target. He also can get info on someone without waiting for that person to die, as we've seen with Tae. And now, the most important thing: he can start transfering someone and erase the person? Tae's body was transferred, ok, she was dead, ok, but even so, that's eliminating matter and we've seen the transfer not only applies at first to dead or dying people (since the vampires are alive unless one considers all that undead talk). Just a thought, as all the rest.
@Shin: Hadou? I thought you were discussing that with Tousen?
gantz does not seem to eliminate matter, it just beams it or more accurately, copyes it.
^ If it's only copying and pasting, then there'd be several bodies and would imply the opposite, Gantz creates matter (as it was proved in Kishimoto's case).
I guess the following is reasonable: Gantz transforms the physical body into data and data back to physical body.
By any chance do you think Gantz stores the originals?
I for one don't think so, but in most cases, the original body disappears.
Whether it's dead and/or stored is pratically irrelevant, because at some time, the body disappeared almost instantaneously.
Then we'd have to debate the mechanics of tranfers, because either you break the atoms and recombine them, forming the same thing which was once in a certain space (then there'd be no clones - already proven not so) or you eliminate the original, creating something new based on the data collected from the original.
I believe however that my explanation might be somewhat poorly articulated, so if someone gets the point and could explain it in a better fashion, I'd greatly appreciate.
EDIT: All this reminds me of the chapter in which transfer is explained on Bokurano manga, which is also interesting (the manga and the transfer idea).
Last edited by Cali; 04-29-2008 at 10:48 AM.
@Shin_Igami: About my previous post. So far nothing indicates that Izumi only got 100 points in total. As you said Izumi memory is still clouded so the memory with 100 points on Gantz could have been been the 100 points he achieved way before he left. Also why do people think that it is the last memory?
But about Izumi battle lust you probably right I might have exaggerated it quite a bit.
About Izumi remembering things from his fight against the chibi alien, I kind of assumed that he remembered somethings because that thesame way Kurono did. Also I said a significant part of his memory may have came back not all of it.
You said that all Izumi remembered was just the basics like how to the equipment. That is wrong because later with his discussion with Nishi he does remember that there other teams in the world and that the past missions were so rough that he does not believe that the tokyo team would be able to complete them unless they get better weapons.
Anyway I do not mind criticisms at all. So feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong
@Cali: About Gantz ability to destroy stuff it also gets rid of the alien corpses
Some monk would notice that there a huge alien corpse in the temple where Buddha mission took place.
About explaining how Gantz transfer people I do not think that is really possible to give a satisfactory explanation because the technology is just too advance to fully comprehend.
Well, the reason why people usually believe this is the case is because of the general weight Izumi seems to put on points. He talks about a 100 points as if it was a big deal, and is smug from having 18(or 16) points, and is shocked by Kurono's 50+ in one go (at least, that's assuming the translations we have are accurate). If he had almost 200, and more, he would not be putting as much weight on that. As for that memory, well the reason we put so much weight on it is because it's the only thing we have. It's not "right" to just pass over it as if it does not exist, even though we may be exaggerating its importance. Getting exactly 100 points, for example, is doubtful. 101/2/3/4/5/etc is that much more likely. Despite that, I still wouldn't write it off.
About why the I think that the "difficult mission" theory does not sit well - A simple observation really -the Osaka mission is, by all means, a difficult mission. However the more difficult the mission, the more likely it is for "collateral damage" to occur. And, if missions we difficult enough to kill a Gantz team of veteran members (i.e people averaging 100 points) then I'd say the spill over should probably have completely broken "normal life" in Japan i.e. the "incidents" would be on everyone lips, and so forth. Considering the news shots, and class discussions we have running in the background as the Gantz missions get more instance, I'd say that if difficult missions had occurred before, Oku would have given us hints of it. Also the Nuri-type mission appears to be the result of Gantz missions getting harder - Remember Anzu saying that the Osaka Team only ever faced one 100 pointer before, and Oka took care of it, and he was able to do it despite being at least a 100 points weaker suit-wise. At most, I'd say Izumi encountered buddha arc level missions. Definitely not oni, or even Nuri.
I still maintain what I say about the Basics - Izumi seems to have done a lot of research on Gantz before returning, and probably came across websites on the "black ball" of Germany, etc. I have nothing to go on for this, but I find it very unlikely for Nishi/Izumi to have actually met members of the overseas team, so I am guessing that they only know it via internet. As such, it may not be "remembering" from his first time in Gantz.
@The Current Topic:
Personally, I think it's still too early to write off extensive government support for Gantz. Well, actually, whether or not the Government knows about Gantz and/or supports it, they will want to cover up this kind of incident anyways, so don't be so fast at laying down your money either way people.
Let's come out and say it - the bone of contention in this discussion is Kishimoto. Personally, I think we should just write it off as a "mess up" both on the part of Gantz, and of Oku. Discussions have been ongoing on this issue almost since the manga started, and so far, no one has been able to provide a reasonable explanation for that.
Issues that Kishimoto messes up:
Gantz only uses the dead.
Gantz makes copies and deletes the original v/s Gantz teleports and repairs.
On the above issues, you can argue one way or the other all you want, but as soon as the issue of Kishimoto is raised, well, it does not fit under any argumentative framework, nor can it be made to - and not for want of trying. If Gantz teleports and repairs, then the issue of copy should never arise. If Gantz copies and deletes, then the issue of copies should still not arise. If Gantz is sloppy on the copying, and cannot delete once he realizes that the target is not dead after all, then this wrecks the "use the dead theory/things in direct contact with Gantzers". Instead, you might want to propose "the near dead" instead of the "dead" but that too, raises issues of its own. The conclusive Kishimoto-inclusive theory on transfers I have yet to see is "Gantz makes a copy of the near-dead, then proceeds to delete the original upon confirmation of death". However, even this theory has its pitfalls - it does not tally that well with the Gantz policy of protecting himself. IMHO, a copy being seen/found out is, in itself, the signal for everyone that something like Gantz (well maybe not the alien part) is going on, especially if this was the general Gantz rule on transfers (which would mean that this happens often).
I think it's about time we filed Kishimoto under "Case Unsolved" and let sleeping dogs lie.
Edit: ... The 600+ word post man is back again!!!
Last edited by Shin_Igami; 04-29-2008 at 03:46 PM.
Originally Posted by Popothepenguin
Originally Posted by Shin_Igami
^Don't you think its possible that Gantz may only destroy what is dead and is therefore unable to destroy Kishimoto's double? Gantz has never destroyed a living thing and I believe that is because he can't. Then again, there is the biker guy, but Gantz killed him first and then probably destroyed him. So maybe it is possible that Gantz is unable to control the circumstances around him unless people enter the realm of the dead. The only time Gantz has absolute control over a person is if they are in the room. Therefore, gantz is like a god of death who can choose how the people who have died spend their afterlife. Then, sense the balance of the world was shaken by sudden alien forces, the god of death had to take a humanistic form that could communicate with the people of this realm. Then, that is why all the stuff is powerful on a kind of supernatural level with mechanic qualities. So maybe Gantz is some level of hell that is somewhere before purgatory (notice the biblical references at the beginning of each tankobon), which is escapable. All that above is completely theory so don't take it as fact.
Well about Gantz not able to get rid of live matter there another thing that speaks against it, the capture gun.
The capture gun seems to work at the same principle as the Gantz transfer
so why should Gantz be unable to beam live matter?
I also agree that Gantz may have to something with religion judging that there too many biblical references and not mention there is a black ball cult.