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  1. #1
    Cardboard Box Junkie is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Default Origins of Father

    I've been working for sometime now on a general theory of where Father came from, his history and what he is trying to do, here are my compiled thoughts on the subject so far. Please read and discuss . . .

    In the Ancient Empire of Xerxes, there was an alchemist to the Emperor. Legends told of the Doors of Truth, a great gate where entities of unimaginable intelligence exists, holding the True knowledge of alchemy.

    The Emperor’s Alchemist use his abilities to channel the power of the Gate and draw part of the entity that exists there into this world, mixing it with the blood of his slave Number 23 so it could sustain itself in this world. It went by the name “Homunculus”. However it could only exist as a shadowy spirit in a container, if it was to leave it glass prison, it would die.

    Homunculus befriended the slave, perhaps feeling bonded by blood, named him Van Hohenheim and used his vast knowledge to teach him to read, write and how to perform alchemy. When Hohenheim grew more proficient, his Master noticed and allowed him to aid in more difficult and alchemic tasks.

    Soon enough the Emperor called on Homunculus for his great knowledge and asked him how to become immortal. Homunculus saw his opportunity for freedom and instructed the Emperor to construct a Transmutation Circle around the entirety of Xerxes and create bloodshed in certain points on the circle.

    Once completed they gathered, the circle was activated with Homunculus and Hohenheim at the true centre and all in Xerxes bar them were sacrificed to create the Philosopher’s Stone, perhaps the first Stone. Being a homunculus with no form, he could not perform alchemy, so he manipulated the Emperor to this moment so he could open the Gate and constructed a form using half the souls of Xerxes in Hohenheim’s likeness to occupy granting him a body, and using the soul’s power he could now perform alchemic feats himself.

    The other half of the souls of Xerxes Homunculus gives to Hohenheim as thanks; his body too becomes a Philosopher’s Stone, immortal, powered by the souls of Xerxes. Hohenheim is devastated at what he helped do, presumably they part ways at this point.

    Van Hohenheim, with his newly powered Philosopher’s Stone body, travels East to a land called Xing. Here he mixes the true alchemy of Xerxes with their arts of healing, primitive alchemy and methods to gain immortality to form the alchemy of Rentanjutsu that the Xingese now use. (A legend that becomes known as the Philosopher of the West) He leaves at some point to travel to Amestris; tiring of his immortality he settles down and starts a family.

    Homunculus, who at some stage changes his name to Father, travels west and teaches the people he meets an alchemy that taps into the power of the Souls of Xerxes Father has contained in his body, which becomes known as Renkinjutsu. (A legend that becomes known as the Sage of the East) The Military State of Amestris forms, with a puppet government controlled by Father and begins to annex all the territory nearby, with perfectly precisioned battles to form a transmutation circle much like in Ancient Xerxes.

    He creates more Homunculi as he once was to carry out his bidding and ensure his plans come into fruition. They are created one of two ways that is known so far, the standard Homunculus is created from a Philosopher’s Stone which becomes their core. They cannot perform alchemy, but have incredible and varying powers but are limited as once the souls of their Philosopher’s Stone are exhausted they can truly die. The other type of Homunculus is created by a Philosopher’s Stone being forced into a human’s body, an agonising process which usually just kills the subject. If successful, the Stone takes over the person’s body, becoming a Homunculus. Some part of the human that once existed still exists inside the Homunculus, but is mostly taken over by the raging personality of the Stone. Presumably the die the same way as a normal Homunculus, when the Stone’s souls are exhausted, however none of these type of Homunculi have been killed as of yet.

    Father appears to be planning to use the entire country of Amestris to open the Gate as he once did in Xerxes, but what he plans to achieve by doing this is yet unknown. He apparently requires human sacrifices, alchemists who have seen the gate themselves by performing failed human transmutations. What purpose these sacrifices are to serve is also unknown. Perhaps he could be planning to draw the remainder of the shadow entity from the Gate into the FMA world.

    Note: Van Hohenheim being the Philosopher of the West has caused a fair bit of discussion and disagreement. However, I am certain that he has to be:

    1: There has been talk of a third Hoho lookalike that is the Philosopher of the West. This is rubbish. The only reason a third lookalike has been considered is because people rejected the idea of Hoho being the PotW and there had to be someone else, so a 3rd Hoho was created, but doesn't exist.

    2: PotW came from Xerxes. Father went to Amestris and taught them so it can't of been him, especially since he would then be able to recognise Xingese alchemy. Considering that the entirety of Xerxes was annihilated except for Father and Hoho, there is only one other person with great alchemic power from Xerxes: Van Hohenheim.

    3: Read the Chapter where Ed goes to the ruins of Xerxes to meet Maria Ross. Ran Fan explains the legend and says the PotW mixed the alchemy of Xerxes with their primitive alchemy and medicinal knowledge to create the Rentanjutsu that they use now. They already had some alchemic knowledge, Hoho merely adapted their knowledge and his together, forming a new alchemy which Father could not recognise.

    4: In Chapter 75, Hoho uses Xing alchemy to heal Izumi Curtis, so he has obviously been in Xing and knows their alchemy.

    I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why Van Hohenheim could not be the Philosopher of the West.

    Right . . . please have a look and tell me your thoughts.


    Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return.
    To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.

  2. #2
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardboard Box Junkie View Post
    I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why Van Hohenheim could not be the Philosopher of the West.
    Told you already, father didn't recognize it.

    And using chapter 40 makes a lot of sense when you consider what Xing alchemy had to offer before.

  3. #3
    Cardboard Box Junkie is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Because it is a mix of Xerxes alchemy and Xing's primitive alchemy and other medicinal arts as I have mentioned before.

    A new brand of alchemy was created, so Father doesn't recognise it, because it isn't Xerxes alchemy, he has never seen Xing alchemy, he has been in Amestris since it was created.

    Father not recognising it isn't an argument, because he wouldn't recognise it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yet again from Chapter 40
    Edward: You guys specialize in medical alchemy, right?

    Ran Fan: Yes. However, that of the old days was nothing but a creation of delusion and imagination.

    There's even a story about an imperial family who, upon believing that it would grant them immortality, kept drinking mercury and died of poisoning in three generations.

    Then a great man came from the West and taught us alchemy. His techniques merged with Xing's traditional arts and became the Liandan-alchemy (elixirmaking) of today.

    We call him with utmost respect: The Sage of the West
    A totally new alchemy was born, that Father has never been exposed to, created by an alchemist from Xerxes - Hohenheim.
    Last edited by Cardboard Box Junkie; 11-21-2007 at 07:57 PM.


    Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return.
    To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.

  4. #4
    Urameshi-sama is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    But, in Xingese Alchemy was truly a syncretic alchemy incorporating Xerxes's alchemy and Xingese arts, then wouldn't Father have at least some degree of control over the alchemy due to its Xerxic origins?

    Its difficult to believe that Father wholly lacked control over the Xingese alchemy if Hohenheim's alchemy was the same as his.


    Btw, good theory. I really like it. Though, the motives for Father's actions remain dubious even with the theory.

  5. #5
    Cardboard Box Junkie is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Because (I believe I mention it) Father can't actually perform alchemy, his power comes from his body, the millions of souls of Xerxes, pure Philosopher's Stone power. That's how he transmutes.

    The alchemy that is in use in Amestris isn't Xerxes alchemy, it all comes completely from Father, he powers the alchemy there. Remember Mei Ling was speaking to Dr. Marcoh about where the energy of alchemy comes from and Mei Ling described it as souls writhing in agony beneath the Earth, being the souls of Xerxes.

    That is why Ed and Al's alchemy is unable to affect Father at all, because they are drawing their power from him.


    Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return.
    To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.

  6. #6
    AtrumIncendia is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardboard Box Junkie View Post
    Because (I believe I mention it) Father can't actually perform alchemy, his power comes from his body, the millions of souls of Xerxes, pure Philosopher's Stone power. That's how he transmutes.

    The alchemy that is in use in Amestris isn't Xerxes alchemy, it all comes completely from Father, he powers the alchemy there. Remember Mei Ling was speaking to Dr. Marcoh about where the energy of alchemy comes from and Mei Ling described it as souls writhing in agony beneath the Earth, being the souls of Xerxes.

    That is why Ed and Al's alchemy is unable to affect Father at all, because they are drawing their power from him.
    Yeah, but there was still alchemy before the souls of Xerxis were sacrificed. So there must be a different source.

  7. #7
    Cardboard Box Junkie is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Yes Xerxes alchemy, which was mixed with Xing arts to make Xing alchemy as I've said. That alchemy comes from the true source, Amestrian alchemy comes from Father and the souls of Xerxes.


    Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return.
    To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.

  8. #8
    jamesh625 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    I think (and I know u probably don't) that the energy used in alchemy in Amestris is drawn from an organic source, possibly dead peoples' souls. This would fit in with Mei saying she hears all the dead souls screaming or something and with CBJ's theories. The source of this energy may come from Father, but this is unlikely as those few thousand (maybe million, I can't remember) souls would easily run out of energy. Take for example how Mustang managed to kill Lust easily enough and it only took him several fire blasts. If there was only this much energy imbedded in Lust (and I understand how much more Father would have since he can excrete Philosophers Stones), it'd doubtful that he would have enough souls to provide energy for every alchemic reaction that occurs in Amestris.
    However, Xing alchemy utilises a natural source of energy: a flow of Ki like substance from a great mountain in Xing (this is similar to the 5 sacred mountains in actual China, so it's logical). Due to this alternate power source, it is impossible for Father, who specialises in the utilisation of souls' energy, to recognise and thus prevent the energy that Mei and Scar use. So perhaps Hoenheim intentionally researched and utilised this energy so that he could thwart Father at a later stage. Although this may not explain why he taught people, possible out of compassion, as he would most likely want to use it as some kind of surprise attack.

    Now that I think about it, this whole comment was unrelated...wasn't it?

  9. #9
    jamesh625 is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    sorry for double posting but the edit button seems to have been removed...so i cant edit, but anyway:
    after reading chapter 67 again, i remembered that Dr Marcoh said that Amestrian alchemy utilises the enery from tectonic movement and other geological phenomena.
    chapter 67, page 33:
    Mei-Chan:it seems the alchemy of Amestris does not use Lung Mei.
    Marcoh:Yes, we use the energy of the movement of the Earth's crust.
    therefore, unless Father is channeling his power through the Earth in order to power the alchemic reactions of Amestris and using this to confuse alchemists (to what end I don't know),
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardboard Box Junkie View Post
    Homunculus, who at some stage changes his name to Father, travels west and teaches the people he meets an alchemy that taps into the power of the Souls of Xerxes Father has contained in his body, which becomes known as Renkinjutsu.
    cannot be true.
    Although, Mei-Chan later brings doubt to this 'use of the tectonic energies' theory, by saying:
    "Rather than the fluctuations of the Earth's crust, this power that flows under our feet, it feels like a great number of people are squirming around"
    Also, Father stopped all alchemy during his battle with Ed and Al (but to what extent we don't know).So there is a possibility that Father does control the fluctuation of energy in Amestris, however, it still seems unlikely, to say the least, that he is the one controlling all the reactions within Amestris.
    One more thing just came to mind: when Father effectively stopped Ed and Al from using alchemy during their fight, perhaps he was just dispersing the energy like Ed did during his second fight with Scar.
    So, in the end I guess we just don't know...but theories are pretty fun to waste time on though.
    Last edited by jamesh625; 12-13-2007 at 01:30 AM. Reason: realisation

  10. #10
    chinsee is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    when father stopped ed and al from using alchemy, we were shown that nobody else could use alchemy, which means that even if amestrian alchemy doesn't come from father, he controls it. Personally I think it's very likely that he is the source of power for all alchemy in amestris

 

 
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