View Poll Results: who is father in the dream?

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  • the homunculus

    20 71.43%
  • #23

    8 28.57%
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Thread: identity issues

  1. #21
    AtrumIncendia is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    And I'm saying that it doesn't have to be looked at in that one direction.

    If father looks like Hohenheim because Hohenheim created father, then it could also be the case that Hohenheim looks like father because father created Hohenheim (which is what I believe). It depends on which is the original, and in my view, it's father (I've given numerous reasons as to why).


    edit: nice, it's 3/4 now in favor of him being #23.
    yeah well i recall hohenhaim when older saying he was like ed when he was younger. (remember when he says to the bottle, shut up asshole!), ha just like ed. thats just a small piece of evidence. obviously the homnculus came after #23, hohenhaim. the homuculi said that you gave me life. and hohenhaim said that his master took blood from him to test, in which he used alchemy to create the homunculi. that is why the homunculi said that you gave me life, in which i have gratitude. father was dreaming of a memory. he was either dreaming as #23(hohenhaim) or the homunculus in the bottle. if father was #23, why did father earler react to ed and al as "you are hohenhaim's children!?" when the homunculi named #23, hohenhaim? also, if father is #23, how did he age? i thought you said father didn't age?

  2. #22
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtrumIncendia View Post
    yeah well i recall hohenhaim when older saying he was like ed when he was younger. (remember when he says to the bottle, shut up asshole!), ha just like ed. thats just a small piece of evidence. obviously the homnculus came after #23, hohenhaim. the homuculi said that you gave me life. and hohenhaim said that his master took blood from him to test, in which he used alchemy to create the homunculi. that is why the homunculi said that you gave me life, in which i have gratitude. father was dreaming of a memory. he was either dreaming as #23(hohenhaim) or the homunculus in the bottle. if father was #23, why did father earler react to ed and al as "you are hohenhaim's children!?" when the homunculi named #23, hohenhaim? also, if father is #23, how did he age? i thought you said father didn't age?
    And as I said earlier, father's manner of dress matched that of Xerxes, we know that father lived in Xerxes in the past, both from the dream and from Envy. Neither can be said for Hohenheim. We also know that father is human according to Mei (though his humanity appears to be worn pretty thin), #23 is definitely human, while the same can't be said for Hohenheim (he was called an "it" by father, and father was surprised that "it" could have children, not to mention that he bleeds souls/philosopher's stones).

    As to why neither father nor Hohenheim ages, the answer should be obvious, one or the other is the creator, the other the creation, the age of the creator at the time of creation is the age at which they both currently appear. They're both obviously immortal, there's no reason for them to each appear at the same age unless one of them obtained immortality and then created the other.

    This would of course, preclude Hohenheim from being #23, if one of them has to be the creator, the creation must be in the future (relative to the dream), and father has to be in the dream, so he can't be the homunculus (which already existed).

  3. #23
    AtrumIncendia is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    And as I said earlier, father's manner of dress matched that of Xerxes, we know that father lived in Xerxes in the past, both from the dream and from Envy. Neither can be said for Hohenheim. We also know that father is human according to Mei (though his humanity appears to be worn pretty thin), #23 is definitely human, while the same can't be said for Hohenheim (he was called an "it" by father, and father was surprised that "it" could have children, not to mention that he bleeds souls/philosopher's stones).

    As to why neither father nor Hohenheim ages, the answer should be obvious, one or the other is the creator, the other the creation, the age of the creator at the time of creation is the age at which they both currently appear. They're both obviously immortal, there's no reason for them to each appear at the same age unless one of them obtained immortality and then created the other.

    This would of course, preclude Hohenheim from being #23, if one of them has to be the creator, the creation must be in the future (relative to the dream), and father has to be in the dream, so he can't be the homunculus (which already existed).
    AHHHHH!!! alright you convinced me. youre right about the it stuff i relooked it. surprised to have children, not human, monster yeah. tho what confuses me is that father named was called van hohenhaim by the homunculus, where does the current van hohenhaim fit in? did father just decide to change his name and create van hohenhaim and gave it that name? oh yeah, and i thought pride was the first homunculus. though father created the homunculi, pride and the others. sooooo yeah...

    oh yeah dont tell me that the homunculi is van hohenhaim.

  4. #24
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtrumIncendia View Post
    oh yeah dont tell me that the homunculi is van hohenhaim.
    That wouldn't make any sense at all, I said that he was Pride.

    As for why he's called Van Hohenheim, I made a little theory here earlier in this thread:


    The seven homunculus that have been named so far represents the seven deadly sins, given father's attitudes about humans (they're insects to be judged only on their usefulness), it's logical that he would get rid of anything tying him to humanity, including these human sins. But if he expelled these sins, why would he be the emotionless monster that he is today? I think the most likely scenario is that he went even further and expelled from himself all remnants of his humanity in addition to the seven sins, and he put this in the form of another homunculus, and what else would you name the humanity that you're trying to rid yourself of, aside from your own human name?

    This would explain father's situation (semi-human being without a name or any apparent emotion), and Hohenheim's position as a homunculus that can father children; due to his nature, he's simply too human, he isn't represented by any concept like greed, envy, or lust, just a desire to live a human life.

    Doesn't mean that it's correct, but it's the scenario that makes the most sense to me, and I've yet to see anything else that attempted to explain their relationship.

  5. #25
    AtrumIncendia is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    That wouldn't make any sense at all, I said that he was Pride.

    As for why he's called Van Hohenheim, I made a little theory here earlier in this thread:
    i thot that father made pride. wait he did technically did he? then pride should look like father

  6. #26
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^ ...

    Father made all the homunculus, does any of them look like him?

    Whatever Hohenheim's situation is, it obviously is very unusual, the creation of artificial humans, whether they're homunculus, or the failures that Ed and Izumi made, has some bearing on what the creator wants (for Izumi and Ed, it turned out to be a boy shaped thing, and a woman shaped thing respectively, beyond that, they couldn't really control it that much). My theory might explain that, or it could be something else entirely, but I doubt that the first homunculus (Pride) would have just ended up looking like its creator.

  7. #27
    AtrumIncendia is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by adonai View Post
    ^ ...

    Father made all the homunculus, does any of them look like him?
    Well no i guess, what i mean is he technically created pride? right? out of blood? so pride is smarter than father? eh?

    and im still pretty confused about whether hohenhaim is father or hohenhaim. just gotta see the next chapter.

  8. #28
    windshadow is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    Not much thought, just a slight comment.


    I dont think the 'looks' arguement count for the homunculus. After all, we've seen how Father 'transfers' their beings to different vessels. (Original Greed >> Ling).

  9. #29
    ramsess is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    IF #23 was father how did he make pride.... he couldn't make him himself since he was just part of the equation = blood.

    And how did pride get to be in the body of Selim or how the hell you write his name.

    As to why father was surprised that Hohenheim could have children i could just say that since he is "immortal" he might have thought that it was impossible for Hohenheim to have children and he calls hohenheim "IT" because hes not human anymore hes a sort of homunculus.

    Also in the time of the city Xerxes it was not called alchemy... and it was not practiced the same way....

    What i can see is that after #23 got the "knowledge" from the homunculus blob he might have created a body for that homunculi and tied the homunculus in that body.... why making a copy of himself a lot older... beats me might have taken a lot of time before he could figure it out perfectly on making a working human body.

    Also i don't recall Envy saying that the souls that created the philosopher's stone from xerxes was used to create "envy" himself he just said they were used to create a stone. Making 2 stones to create envy and pride after father created hohenheim would be a LOT of dead ppl in my opinion.

    What i see that the first stone would have been used for was either to create a body for father "the homunculi blob" from what i think hehe ^^ or to give #23 a immortal life.

    Envy would have been created a lot later after pride....i say envy would have been created after amerisis started....

    And that blob has more of the "im a evil basterd" personality that fits with father then it fits with Hohenheim so the blob is defenetly not Hohenheim in any case.


    And dont you guys think that the shadow in those tunnels under briggs is pride who is having fun ripping pplz to shredz muhehehe ^^


    **********
    EDIT:

    Also remember that Kimbley wants to know whos gonna win... the homunculus or the humans....if father had any kind of humanity he couldn't be counted in the homunculus.


    And why did the lil asian girl say he was human and he wasn't.... because of the blood given to him by hohenheim.... which gives him a bit of humanity or even because like i said above... because he was given a body in which to live in... but its not really his body so he is and isn't human.
    Last edited by ramsess; 08-23-2007 at 04:54 PM. Reason: forgot

  10. #30
    adonai is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    IF #23 was father how did he make pride.... he couldn't make him himself since he was just part of the equation = blood.
    What? He didn't make Pride, his master did, he just happened to have provided one of the components, specifically the "soul" component in the form of blood.


    And how did pride get to be in the body of Selim or how the hell you write his name.
    How did the führer candidate become Wrath/King Bradley? How did Ling become Greed? Selim is almost certainly a human homunculus, it's not like his current form could be that old, a non-aging little kid would definitely have attracted attention.

    As to why father was surprised that Hohenheim could have children i could just say that since he is "immortal" he might have thought that it was impossible for Hohenheim to have children and he calls hohenheim "IT" because hes not human anymore hes a sort of homunculus.
    Obviously neither Hohenheim nor father is completely human, though it's most probably that at least one of them started as such. If father doubts Hohenheim's humanity, and Hohenheim himself calls himself a monster, then he's obviously a homunculus. If on the other hand, Mei and Ling both noted that father was different from the homunculus, Mei said that he was "a person", and later on said that he was "a person but not a person", Ling also noted something very strange about father. What's important to note here is that both Ling and Mei had met homunculus before, and they didn't show nearly the same amount of fear, both of them also made statements that directly implied that father was different from the homunculus, Mei said straight out that the other homunculus was not human, for father, it was "a person but not a person", and Ling specifically referred to him as "the homunculi's boss".

    Also in the time of the city Xerxes it was not called alchemy... and it was not practiced the same way....
    Obviously, alchemy as it is, is completely controlled by father, he powers it, and it can turn it off. Whatever other cultures had used or is using, is very different.

    What i can see is that after #23 got the "knowledge" from the homunculus blob he might have created a body for that homunculi and tied the homunculus in that body.... why making a copy of himself a lot older... beats me might have taken a lot of time before he could figure it out perfectly on making a working human body.
    But my question is, why make that body a body your exact same age, why give that body the cloths from your home country, which you yourself don't even wear anymore, why allow that homunculi to create more homunculi, why allow that homunculi to make you into a "monster", why allow that homunculi to plan to use you as a sacrifice?

    Also i don't recall Envy saying that the souls that created the philosopher's stone from xerxes was used to create "envy" himself he just said they were used to create a stone. Making 2 stones to create envy and pride after father created hohenheim would be a LOT of dead ppl in my opinion.
    This doesn't really have anything to do with the dream, no matter who #23 is, but why would you doubt that Envy was created during the destruction of Xerxes? His stone is unique in its size (it's bigger than Ed's fist, while the others are the size of a pebble), and Envy himself is unique in the fact that he's composed of various human body parts.

    What i see that the first stone would have been used for was either to create a body for father "the homunculi blob" from what i think hehe ^^ or to give #23 a immortal life.
    Stones are not that difficult to create (think about 5th laboratory, why do you doubt that there could have been multiple? It's not like everyone can be made with something like the entire population of a country.

    Envy would have been created a lot later after pride....i say envy would have been created after amerisis started....
    Of course he's created after Pride, "first homunculus" isn't exactly a meaningless title. As for when he's created there's evidence that it was during the destruction of Xerxes, I don't see why you would believe otherwise without providing your own evidnece.

    And that blob has more of the "im a evil basterd" personality that fits with father then it fits with Hohenheim so the blob is defenetly not Hohenheim in any case.
    No one is arguing that it is, I'm saying that it's Pride.

    And dont you guys think that the shadow in those tunnels under briggs is pride who is having fun ripping pplz to shredz muhehehe ^^
    Yeah, that's pretty obvious, which is why no one is arguing about it.

    **********
    EDIT:

    Also remember that Kimbley wants to know whos gonna win... the homunculus or the humans....if father had any kind of humanity he couldn't be counted in the homunculus.
    He controls them...can there be any doubt of that? And when someone is immortal, and their body is filled with liquefied souls, the definition of humanity might not fit them so well no matter how they started life.

    And why did the lil asian girl say he was human and he wasn't.... because of the blood given to him by hohenheim.... which gives him a bit of humanity or even because like i said above... because he was given a body in which to live in... but its not really his body so he is and isn't human.
    And I would have to say again, that could be applied to more than the homunculus in the flask, with very different results. I've already explained the blood argument multiple times in previous posts.

 

 
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