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  1. #1
    sot
    sot is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Default Download Managers are NOT EVIL

    Lately I saw a lot of updates regarding download abuse and IP bans. And one of the reason which is rather strongly suggested is because of the use of download managers. And reading your posts, warnings and announcements really gives me the feeling that you condemned using download managers and that they are evil beings. What I would like to say is that they are NOT! Another thing, is that it might not be possible for you to block the use of download managers regardless the kind of efforts that you put into it.

    Download Managers are managers! Some of them offers speed boost by multipart downloads but basically they are managers. What do they manage? they manage donwload links and when to execute the downloads. If people can just set up their download managers to 'behave', I dont see the reason for banning people for using download managers. What I mean by 'behave' is for instance, only using one connections for every file and only downloading files one at a time.

    Next, why i think you can not actually stop download managers, is because they are essentially internet client. My download manager (and a lot of others) can lie to you that it actually a download manager by saying (when attempting to connect) that it is an Internet Explorer. Now, of course you can detect the number of connections that are coming at the same time, but supposedly that the download managers are set up to be well behave I dont think that there's anything you can do about that.

    Moreover regarding the number of connections checking, if for instance someone wants to download bleach and unconciously clicking (maybe right click->open in new window) bleach 1-50 at the same time, they might get banned even if they are not using download managers!

    Lastly, what im trying to say is that your fight is NOT with Download Managers and Download Managers are not essentially EVIL. You just have to make them behave. I believe that what you are trying to fight is the excessive bandwidth usage. And because of that, I strongly feels that what you should warn users is not 'Not to use Download Managers' but rather 'Not to use too many connections at once!' and maybe below that (or in the FAQ) you can describe the possible cause of putting too many connections, AND how to resolve them. Please dont hate Download Managers! I have to say that because I often get corrupted zip files when downloading from this site before and using download managers greatly reduce the number of corrupted files downloaded. And it helps you save bandwidths also (because then I dont have to redownload every corrupted files again, right?)

    cheers!

  2. #2
    Hellcreator is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Default

    The main reason why its a general rule they aren't allowed is you have to assume that everyone is an idiot. The easiest way to stop people from unknowenly get banned is to make a general rule to it.

    I say the same thing in my job(i'm a radio tech). Eg: someone asks me if they can connect multiple speakers to this radio. While i know that you can I tell them no. The reason: If the connect it wrong they will blow the radio up.

    Download managers are the same thing. you set them up right and you have no troubles. Set them up wrong you get banned.

    plain and simple.

  3. #3
    sot
    sot is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Default

    True. There are times when we need to do drastic measures (I think it can be seen as 'paranoid' defense). However, you see, when you use the term 'Download Managers' unfortunately it creates ambiguity and confussion especially to those people you refer as 'idiots'. Lets face it, they dont know how to set up their download manager right, hell, they dont even know that they are using download managers. Take mozilla Firefox. It shipped WITH a download manager. A lot of people using firefox would be surprised when they get banned and didnt know why, and then you accused them of using download managers which may never been their intent. but of course it doesnt mean that you have to lighten your policy or so. But please make it clear, make them understand the why's AND the possible solutions. Thats what im suggesting: A clear stated policy and the reasons AND if possible, the solutions. And no, I dont think that 'Do Not Use Download Managers' is a clear policy, since lots of people does not aware (nor understand), even when they are using it, what Download Manager is.

    >> Download managers are the same thing. you set them up right and you have no troubles. Set them up wrong you get banned.

    What if those people doesnt understand/didnt know that they are using download managers ??

    cheers!

  4. #4
    Hellcreator is offline Senior Member Long Time Member
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    Default

    what ever happened to understanding how something works before using it.


    Reading the "instruction manual" does apply to this. You can't plead ignorance all the time, take responsibility, saw you screwed up and learn from it.

  5. #5
    Elskejin is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Default

    I had no idea that download managers caused such problems.

    Heck.
    There are far too many things that I have 'no idea' about, it seems.
    I've downloaded cross-series before, and I never realised that it might put a strain on servers and such.
    I am, by no means, an expert on bandwidth and that crap.
    I never work with it.
    Pretty lucky for me that I don't do more than one download at a time these days... (I found that it slowed me down).

    It's not that I'm stupid, I simply don't know these things.



    My idiotic question:

    Keeping my Firefox Download Manager open to enable me to check the progress of a single download is not damaging, surely?
    No harm done, right?

  6. #6
    powermog is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    Default

    How many people do you think can understand the problem right away and set their download manager to "behave" the way we want? The percentage is very low...very close to zero.
    Firefox download manager isn't any download manager It doesn't have anything to do with speed boosting.

  7. #7
    sot
    sot is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    now you see..., i dont think even you understand what a download manager is. even if it is not offer speed boosting, it does manage downloads! and firefox default settings (i think) does downloads up to 5 files at one time (meaning it will open 5 connections at one time). which is,... of course... subject to banning right?

    like you said, not many people understand the problem. so explain it! maybe im just being optimistic, but i think that people can understand if you explain it properly.

  8. #8
    sot
    sot is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elskejin
    I had no idea that download managers caused such problems.

    My idiotic question:

    Keeping my Firefox Download Manager open to enable me to check the progress of a single download is not damaging, surely?
    No harm done, right?
    just keeping it open no. it wont be a problem. heck they wont even know that you are using it. BUT, if you dont set your download settings right, i think firefox might try to download 5 files at once. please check your download settings first before queueing your downloads. remember in firefox download manager if you set it to 1 file at a time, the settings will reflect globally. meaning even if youre not downloading from this site it will always download one file at a time. and if for some reason you changed it in the future, be sure that you dont have files in queue from this site. its a bit troublesome, i know.

    my download manager can detect certain IPs and use specific settings when trying to connect to some specific IP. for this site ( and it mirrors ) i always set it to no multipart connection and only one file at a time. for downloads from other than this site, i specify it multipart, 3 files at once.

    cheers!

  9. #9
    lavista is offline Member Frequent Poster
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    well yea... people can understand stuff if you put enough time to them OR if they even check the announcement... Why do you think ban exist if everybody follow the rule.. admit about one thing.. human learn by mistakes. I learn about forum rule after get banned from my school forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by sot
    just keeping it open no. it wont be a problem. heck they wont even know that you are using it.
    I don't think this is true, there is a way to detect what browser you use
    and even you IP if they want to...
    and guess how do you think they detect whether you use download manager or not... (altought you can also take counter measure also...)

    Quote Originally Posted by sot
    BUT, if you dont set your download settings right, i think firefox might try to download 5 files at once.
    hmm the default for firefox is always 1... I don't know where do you get this...

    Quote Originally Posted by sot
    please check your download settings first before
    queueing your downloads. remember in firefox download manager if you set it to 1 file at a time, the settings will reflect globally. meaning even if youre not downloading from this site it will always download one file at a time. and if for some reason you changed it in the future, be sure that you dont have files in queue from this site. its a bit troublesome, i know.
    Honestly, I encourage people not to tweak firefox setting... since for standard browsing, firefox default setting is already good.
    except if you want to do something to trick the regular site eh...

    Quote Originally Posted by sot
    my download manager can detect certain IPs and use specific settings when trying to connect to some specific IP. for this site ( and it mirrors ) i always set it to no multipart connection and only one file at a time. for downloads from other than this site, i specify it multipart, 3 files at once.
    thank you for only using 1 file for this site, for the other sites.. I feel pity for them because you just help them to kill their bandwidth

    Quote Originally Posted by sot
    Download Managers are managers! Some of them offers speed boost by multipart downloads but basically they are managers. What do they manage? they manage donwload links and when to execute the downloads. If people can just set up their download managers to 'behave', I dont see the reason for banning people for using download managers. What I mean by 'behave' is for instance, only using one connections for every file and only downloading files one at a time.
    multipart downloads is what we are afraid of... i have seen a lot of website get killed because of what you called "afraid of excessive bandwidth usage"
    and maybe you don't realize is that by multiple downloading at the same time, you slow down the server a lot... compare opening 100 file at once with opening 1 file 100 time.. how is the speed?
    now just change opening to downloading...
    I also think it's normal to be afraid for not be able to pay right? except if you really willing to donate to pay this so-called-excessive-bandwith-usage, no? if you are not, then just follow the rule

    yes they are called manager because they manage the download... but come on admit it.. how many people really take their time to configure their download manager? they only care to learn how to configure the setting for connection, but never care to learn about how to configure some extra settings.. no?
    Last edited by lavista; 02-18-2006 at 11:00 PM.

  10. #10
    pentaelemental is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Default

    I agree download managers are not evil. I was upset (not as much as sot though), but I learned to use IRC. Now I feel like I have unlimited downloading power.
    Last edited by pentaelemental; 02-19-2006 at 12:08 AM.

 

 
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