View Poll Results: Rate Eyeshiel 1-10

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  • 10

    16 39.02%
  • 9

    12 29.27%
  • 8

    6 14.63%
  • 7

    1 2.44%
  • 6

    6 14.63%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 3

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 1

    0 0%
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  1. #21
    dkhw is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    it's a fun read, there is no doubt about that. if you are second-guessing reading this manga because of the low 7/10, 6/10 scores, then don't. read it. it's very fun to read.

    I think slamdunk has more focus on character development, because story focuses on just five people, on the other hand, eyeshield 21 has to focus on 11+ players. But this is probably a bias opinion, since basketball is my favorite sports to follow (2. soccer, 3. football (nfl and ncaa) 4. tennis)
    Last edited by dkhw; 12-02-2006 at 07:12 PM.

  2. #22
    dy the cat is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    i vote 9 because i never gave anything a full mark, 9 is the maximum to me, which mean, if you rate it to 100, i give it 99. that's how great the manga is to me. give it a read, you will like it!! X3

  3. #23
    DeadRedDread is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    I like it a fair deal. I think it's kinda interesting to look at the differences the author and I have in opinions on certain aspects of the game, due to the differences of how strategy in the sport is perceived in the two countries. That, and I really like the balance of humour and drama in it. You don't get those awkward moments you have in some manga that tries to force one either the humour, or the drama in a place it shouldn't be there. You know what I mean? I don't know if I'm really describing it right, but that's one of the things I like. That, and Hiruma is frikkin' awesome.

  4. #24
    echoblaze is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Rivals? Surpasses? It's debatable. However, excellent character development doesn't make up for the shortcomings of the other two aspects.
    in works of fiction, there is a realism barrier where if exceeded, the story becomes trashy/illogical and lose appeal. ES21 has not passed this barrier, and that is enough for me, as regards to realism. as to humour and drama, i suppose it's different for different people, because i find ES21 does both well.

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Sena was blazingly fast and had godly cutback skills from the beginning, an inborn talent that gives him an innate advantage over everyone else in the beginning as a running back. Sena was a prodigy from the beginning and didn't have to develop as much as a main character could have. Whereas Sakuragi's innate skills did not give him any distinct advantage over everyone else, he had physical advantages but still had to learn to utilize them. Sakuragi has/had more development than Sena. Unless Sena becomes an outspoken aggressive emotional leader for the Deimon Bats, he doesn't have the literary potential to reach the character development that Sakuragi achieved. Better main character development: Slam Dunk easily.
    From the beginning? I suppose you mean from the beginning of the manga. there has been plenty of flashbacks showing his development as an *average* person to developing his fast and cutback skills. anywhere from rikku to getting stuff for bullies to death march.

    huh, outspoken/aggressive/emotional are all traits that sakuragi had *from the beginning*. the only thing that developed was the leadership part. is sena outspoken/aggressive/emotional? No. if you notice carefully, he leads in his own way... the devil bats depend on him to win his 1v1s. they asked him for his final decision in the shinryuuji game. he's clearly building more a backbone - a large difference from the coward who keeps running away from everything in the beginning.

    to ask sena to become an outspoken/aggressive/emotional leader is to ask the main character to become OOC. your point is clearly invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    With said secondary characters, they all had some sort of skill that allowed them to succeed early but it isn't plausible for someone to pick up a sport and become the best with just a few practices - as most Eyeshield 21 characters were depicted.
    of course it isn't.. i also realize that high school students don't jump several meters high, or run at the speed of light, or carry vast arrays of firearms. the off-the-top-ness is part of the overall "flavour" of the manga, and makes it interesting and amusing.

    and if i might add, most of their practises were clearly behind the scenes. it'd be pretty boring for the readers to absorb chapter after chapter of practises.

  5. #25
    d.A. is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    in works of fiction, there is a realism barrier where if exceeded, the story becomes trashy/illogical and lose appeal. ES21 has not passed this barrier, and that is enough for me, as regards to realism. as to humour and drama, i suppose it's different for different people, because i find ES21 does both well.
    Well for me it crossed that said barrier. Sports manga by definition tries to depict a sport and thus has an unwritten commitment to do that said sport justice. ES21 does not do so. Even considering the fact that its sub-genre is fantasy Ė the nature of the sport should still be kept intact. An elite sports manga can entertain readers without such exaggerations of massive proportions. As for the humor & drama balance: Like DeadRedDread said, it doesnít force humor and drama into situations where they donít belong and thus for that it deserves an average score, but compared to others it just isnít that good. Parts of the drama are rather underdeveloped and the transitions between the humor and drama are a bit rough.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    From the beginning? I suppose you mean from the beginning of the manga. there has been plenty of flashbacks showing his development as an *average* person to developing his fast and cutback skills. anywhere from rikku to getting stuff for bullies to death march.
    Of course both characters had some sort of development shown via flashbacks. But thatís just it Ė they are flashbacks, character development can only rely so much on flashbacks. Take Keitaro from Love Hina for example: He changed drastically. True. But it isnít deep character development when you go from a timid student to a calm professional in a matter of 16 pages where you only appear in 10 panels. Flashbacks are the same thing Ė they donít allow the reader to fully experience the development of the character and are slightly removed from the basic story.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    huh, outspoken/aggressive/emotional are all traits that sakuragi had *from the beginning*. the only thing that developed was the leadership part. is sena outspoken/aggressive/emotional? No. if you notice carefully, he leads in his own way... the devil bats depend on him to win his 1v1s. they asked him for his final decision in the shinryuuji game. he's clearly building more a backbone - a large difference from the coward who keeps running away from everything in the beginning.
    You misunderstood me. Senaís characterís personality has grown? Yes. But compared to other sports mangas Ė his character development is quite limited. While Sakuragi isnít the best example: Iíll use him. Sakuragi did not become the best player on the court, much less even his own team. Sena and Sakuragi both had to do the usual things required for character development within sports mangas (discover skill, use skill to beat teams, gain leadership, lose to good team, find better skill, beat more teams, gain more leadership, etc) however, while Sena initially excelled at his trade: Sakuragi struggled. Sena was initially given every tool to succeed at his trade while Sakuragi had to learn slowly but surely.

    Which imposes more character development: A guy succeeding or a guy struggling?

    Just like how perfect Hollywood endings usually do nothing more than kill the story with their carebear fluff, constant success from the main character only degrades the greatness of the character development. ES21 suffers from this problem.

    Comparing both characters from their initial appearance in the mangas to their current / finished state, I find it to be quite a simple conclusion that Sena hasnít changed as much as Sakuragi has Ė plain and simple. While this can easily change with ES21 being incomplete, dkhw hit it right on the head, the ES21 storyline focuses on the development of 11 players rather than 5. ES21 focuses more on the whole team rather than the main character, an addition of 7 additional characters makes it that much more unlikely that Sena will get as much character development as Sakuragi. Slam Dunk also does a better job at using character foils at emphasizing the development of its characters.

    In football you are counted to win every 1 on 1 battle period; I donít see how that has to do with anything. Itís a team sport because you are relying on your teammates to succeed with their assignments on plays. They asked Sena the question because he is an important member of his team. He is second only to Hiruma at putting his team in a position they can succeed Ė another point on how Sena has been so much more successful than Sakuragi.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    to ask sena to become an outspoken/aggressive/emotional leader is to ask the main character to become OOC. your point is clearly invalid.
    Any point is invalid when itís misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    of course it isn't.. i also realize that high school students don't jump several meters high, or run at the speed of light, or carry vast arrays of firearms. the off-the-top-ness is part of the overall "flavour" of the manga, and makes it interesting and amusing.
    Some ďflavoursĒ are better than others. A sports manga is made to 1) depict a sport and 2) entertain - ES21 deviates from the first purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    and if i might add, most of their practises were clearly behind the scenes. it'd be pretty boring for the readers to absorb chapter after chapter of practises.
    So game after game is any different? Balance is the key.

    I stand by my main point.

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Those who have read enough of these sports mangas - and who know all their tricks - will likely recognize that Eyeshield 21 is nothing special.
    Itís a good read and a good manga, but it isnít special nor is it elite. 6/10 means itís just slightly above average Ė which is what I get out of it.

    Join the movement today.

  6. #26
    yunfanz is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    i'd say 8-9/10 its no dout that its one of the best sport manga followed by whistle. After is started reading i joined the football team and dame the season its over for us but i miss it soo much

  7. #27
    echoblaze is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Well for me it crossed that said barrier. Sports manga by definition tries to depict a sport and thus has an unwritten commitment to do that said sport justice.
    I think you are simply too serious. ES21 does not do football justice ? have you not seen the number of people that had zero interest in football and was interested by ES21 ? It is possible that the fact that you have been interested in and a fan of football from the start, that makes you dislike the fact that it's not being represented as accurately as possible, far from:

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    I prefer American football and tennis over basketball but my rating was ment to be as objective as possible - as in no fanboy-ism.
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Flashbacks are the same thing Ė they donít allow the reader to fully experience the development of the character and are slightly removed from the basic story.
    on the contrary, i find flashbacks used effectively in ES21. for instance, kurita's flashbacks to how agon screwed him over for shinryuuji, added a lot of emotional appeal to their match.

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Which imposes more character development: A guy succeeding or a guy struggling?

    Just like how perfect Hollywood endings usually do nothing more than kill the story with their carebear fluff, constant success from the main character only degrades the greatness of the character development. ES21 suffers from this problem.
    While it's true that sena - skill-wise - has been pretty amazing from the start, emotionally, he had to struggle a lot more than sakuragi did. he was afraid of hiruma, of bullies, of getting hurt, and he was constantly running away. but now, he's willing to fight anything and anyone - like the time he took on agon.

    and... what you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Unless Sena becomes an outspoken aggressive emotional leader for the Deimon Bats, he doesn't have the literary potential to reach the character development that Sakuragi achieved.
    and... what i said:
    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    to ask sena to become an outspoken/aggressive/emotional leader is to ask the main character to become OOC. your point is clearly invalid.
    and... what you said in reply:
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Any point is invalid when itís misunderstood.
    I'll let you figure that one out.

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    So game after game is any different? Balance is the key.
    Yes, very different. it's the difference between gruelling repetition and interesting tactics/competition adrenaline. Have you not taken up a competitive activity before ? The contrast between practise and the actual fight is very clear.

    And I too stand by my point that ES21 is one of the top mangas I've read, and I've read quite a few.

  8. #28
    DeadRedDread is offline Senior Member Frequent Poster
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    I haven't read/seen much sports manga/anime(and I'm not sure you could call Initial D sports manga), but from what I HAVE read/seen, I like ES21 more than Princess Nine and a lot more than Prince of Tennis, but I prefer Initial D to it, and none of those hold even a candle to Hajime No Ippo. I'd call Suzuka more of a romance than a sport manga to be honest, but I enjoy it as well.

  9. #29
    NHK_NiYoukoso is offline Senior Member Regular
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    I'd give it a 5. It lacks good character development because there are an abundance of teams introduced. The transition of the sport into a manga is done greatly but it doesn't deserve more than a 5.

    ^that ninja >>> naruto

  10. #30
    d.A. is offline Senior Member Well Known
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    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    I think you are simply too serious. ES21 does not do football justice ? have you not seen the number of people that had zero interest in football and was interested by ES21 ? It is possible that the fact that you have been interested in and a fan of football from the start, that makes you dislike the fact that it's not being represented as accurately as possible, far from:
    Does Prince of Tennis do tennis justice? No. Neither does ES21. Play real football sometime – you know, that sport with a pigskin ball and pads and helmets - and you just might experience the difference. It doesn’t do the sport justice – plain and simple. ES21 does nothing more than show the basics of the sport – it’s like playing cards with only half a deck. While that alone is sufficient to most people, many other sports manga have done much better jobs at depicting their sports with the same amount of pages as ES21 and thus ES21 falls well short in this aspect.

    Am I showing favoritism toward one manga? No. Apparently you believe being realistic and being a fanboy are one the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    on the contrary, i find flashbacks used effectively in ES21. for instance, kurita's flashbacks to how agon screwed him over for shinryuuji, added a lot of emotional appeal to their match.
    Effective flashbacks are still flashbacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    While it's true that sena - skill-wise - has been pretty amazing from the start, emotionally, he had to struggle a lot more than sakuragi did. he was afraid of hiruma, of bullies, of getting hurt, and he was constantly running away. but now, he's willing to fight anything and anyone - like the time he took on agon.
    And that doesn’t apply to Sakuragi? They both suffered through emotional stress. It’s a part of all sports manga. There isn't viable reasoning to believe Sena has developed as much as Sakuragi at this point of ES21.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Unless Sena becomes an outspoken aggressive emotional leader for the Deimon Bats, he doesn't have the literary potential to reach the character development that Sakuragi achieved.
    and... what i said:

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    to ask sena to become an outspoken/aggressive/emotional leader is to ask the main character to become OOC. your point is clearly invalid.
    and... what you said in reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Any point is invalid when it’s misunderstood.
    I'll let you figure that one out.
    Get your point straight. I’ve explained further how unlikely it is for Sena to have as much character development as Sakuragi considering ES21 focuses on the team rather than a single character in my past post. Hence the usage of the phrase “literary potential.” Using “aggressive emotional leader” is but an example of how drastic he would have to develop in order to par with Sakuragi’s character development. Rather than reading just the short lines, I suggest you read everything before rebutting.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    Yes, very different. it's the difference between gruelling repetition and interesting tactics/competition adrenaline. Have you not taken up a competitive activity before ? The contrast between practise and the actual fight is very clear.
    There is no tactics / competition in practice? That is a naïve statement. Anything and everything is competitive in sports. Hence why they are called sports. ES21 already depicts that competitive nature of football in practice. Whether it’s a team practice or a pick up game – it is competitive. The difference between the two aspects is one has stakes on the line and the other doesn’t – that doesn’t mean no tactics or competition are used. A continous storyline of dramatic match after match loses its appeal as much as practice after practice does after a while. Balance is key. ES21 did a good job at showing the aspect of practice in the begining and could very well improve with more of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by echoblaze View Post
    And I too stand by my point that ES21 is one of the top mangas I've read, and I've read quite a few.
    Hence the reason I used the words "likely" and "enough" and added in the phrase "who know all their tricks" while specifiying "sports."

    Quote Originally Posted by d.A. View Post
    Those who have read enough of these sports mangas - and who know all their tricks - will likely recognize that Eyeshield 21 is nothing special.

    Join the movement today.

 

 
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