View Poll Results: Who is guilty?

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  • Louvilier

    0 0%
  • Church higher ups (excluding Rouvilier)

    12 60.00%
  • Earl and Noah

    1 5.00%
  • Monkey-like innocence thats being jealous of Cross for flirting with its owner

    7 35.00%
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  1. #11
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Well, not really; in huge organizations like Church the totall control over all of its higher ups is impossible, so they have some freedom of using tools that belong to organization for themselves without others getting to know. Also, if its Noah, not Church, it makes Church innocent.
    It's possible, but would Crow really take orders from a single person just because s/he told them to? I'd think that Central would have something like a council that makes decisions by voting to avoid that sort of corruption from happening - and that seems supported by what we've seen in the manga; Levellier spoke to a group of people around the same level of authority, there are a number of Dai-Gensui (those Crow-like guys we saw in chapter 7, the heads of the Order), the Order being founded by more than one person/family, Central being referred to as an organization rather than one person or... I dunno; that seems more likely. A Noah could have influenced others to vote a certain way, but it wouldn't make them entirely innocent. From what Hoshino has shown us of the Order, it's doubtful she intends to make them 'innocent' (note that this was right after hearing what they did to small children!).

    Ah lol. Can you please link me to original theory? I wanna read their arguments. Althouth i kinda can think of some myself ;P Skull is kinda dead already so it needs special weapon to be used against him to die, so no wonder.
    I don't know, sorry! I've heard it come up so many times in discussions, though... I think they mostly cited Cross's disguise (he pretended to be a Skull) and the similar magic... and weren't the Skulls picking out the more intelligent scientists to convert? I thought the arguments were kinda sketchy, probably because I never saw them together as one organized post, but it was an interesting point and could explain why he may not have died but is still incompatible - and what's up with the mask.
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  2. #12
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    It's possible, but would Crow really take orders from a single person just because s/he told them to? I'd think that Central would have something like a council that makes decisions by voting to avoid that sort of corruption from happening - and that seems supported by what we've seen in the manga; Levellier spoke to a group of people around the same level of authority, there are a number of Dai-Gensui (those Crow-like guys we saw in chapter 7, the heads of the Order), the Order being founded by more than one person/family, Central being referred to as an organization rather than one person or... I dunno; that seems more likely. A Noah could have influenced others to vote a certain way, but it wouldn't make them entirely innocent. From what Hoshino has shown us of the Order, it's doubtful she intends to make them 'innocent' (note that this was right after hearing what they did to small children!).
    The central indeed seems to be a group of people, not just Pope or whoever is official head of the church there. Still it does not prevent single members of this council from using Crow agents for personal interests - if its as secret as i assume it to be all of those orders are given from individual to individual and the agent recieving it is to keep quite about his missions even among Crow comrades. Also, helping council members with their privat tasks is a guarantee of certain amount of previledges. People are greedy after all.

    If Noah has simply influenced others to vote for Crosses executions it make all the council guilty, not just Noah. I agree with oyu on this.

    I don't know, sorry! I've heard it come up so many times in discussions, though... I think they mostly cited Cross's disguise (he pretended to be a Skull) and the similar magic... and weren't the Skulls picking out the more intelligent scientists to convert? I thought the arguments were kinda sketchy, probably because I never saw them together as one organized post, but it was an interesting point and could explain why he may not have died but is still incompatible - and what's up with the mask.
    I'd like to see them all together too. Well, nothing prevents us from trying to compose this theory on our own thus checking its validity.

  3. #13
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    The central indeed seems to be a group of people, not just Pope or whoever is official head of the church there. Still it does not prevent single members of this council from using Crow agents for personal interests - if its as secret as i assume it to be all of those orders are given from individual to individual and the agent recieving it is to keep quite about his missions even among Crow comrades. Also, helping council members with their privat tasks is a guarantee of certain amount of previledges. People are greedy after all.
    That just seems like such a stupid thing to allow, though. How easy would it be to send Crow after another council member who might disagree with you? Surely there must be some safeguards against such a thing. Yes, they'll want as few people as possible to know, but... I think Central would try to avoid letting Crow be used for personal opportunism (or maybe it's okay to use Crow to kill your nosy neighbour without asking, but not someone important - and Cross would be Someone Important).

    Bribery? Perhaps, but that's assuming Crow members are susceptible to that. It's difficult to imagine Link getting bribed (blackmailed, perhaps, and only because of his personal connections, but not bribed), and I wonder if that would be part of their training. No use in having an elite team of killers if your enemy could just bribe them to work for them.

    If Noah has simply influenced others to vote for Crosses executions it make all the council guilty, not just Noah. I agree with oyu on this.
    At the very least, I think this would have happened. The Order/Central are not innocent or nice, after all.

    I'd like to see them all together too. Well, nothing prevents us from trying to compose this theory on our own thus checking its validity.
    Indeed. =)
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  4. #14
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    That just seems like such a stupid thing to allow, though. How easy would it be to send Crow after another council member who might disagree with you? Surely there must be some safeguards against such a thing. Yes, they'll want as few people as possible to know, but... I think Central would try to avoid letting Crow be used for personal opportunism (or maybe it's okay to use Crow to kill your nosy neighbour without asking, but not someone important - and Cross would be Someone Important).
    Safeguard will be - only council can act against its members.

    Bribery? Perhaps, but that's assuming Crow members are susceptible to that. It's difficult to imagine Link getting bribed (blackmailed, perhaps, and only because of his personal connections, but not bribed), and I wonder if that would be part of their training. No use in having an elite team of killers if your enemy could just bribe them to work for them.
    I expect them to be. They are humans after all.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Safeguard will be - only council can act against its members.
    I'd think/hope they're smart enough to apply that principle to any important action; Cross may not be one of them but he was still high-ranking enough to cause quite a mess when this happened. I guess the only reason to send Crow after Cross in that case (if it was a Noah), though, would be because of location - Crow members would know where Cross was and could get there. No point in framing them or Central, not when Central has the power to crush the Order, and... well... I guess maybe to cause chaos, but what's the Order going to do? Break away? Could they?

    I expect them to be. They are humans after all.
    What could they be bribed with? Cake? <_<
    ~Digital_Eon~




  6. #16
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    I'd think/hope they're smart enough to apply that principle to any important action; Cross may not be one of them but he was still high-ranking enough to cause quite a mess when this happened. I guess the only reason to send Crow after Cross in that case (if it was a Noah), though, would be because of location - Crow members would know where Cross was and could get there. No point in framing them or Central, not when Central has the power to crush the Order, and... well... I guess maybe to cause chaos, but what's the Order going to do? Break away? Could they?
    They could not get Cross before because his location was unknown (btw this shows that Crow is not allmighty). Cross is high ranked, but not enough. Besides he, being an exorcist is just a tool. Valuing him too much does not go well with ordes ways. Order is not going to do anything. Unless a part of church their existance has no meaning after all.

    What could they be bribed with? Cake? <_<
    Lifes of their family members.

  7. #17
    Viraten is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Hold on, was Cross really shown to be slain? I remember there being a lot of blood and his limp body at the centre, but was his death actually confirmed? I thought his body went missing after that through the shattered hole in the window.

    If that is the case...I'm inclined to believe that he isn't dead. If I'm somehow missed an important page out confirming his demise, then string me up and slap me silly.
    Last edited by Viraten; 10-01-2008 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Noticed a spelling mistake, lol
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  8. #18
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    They could not get Cross before because his location was unknown (btw this shows that Crow is not allmighty). Cross is high ranked, but not enough. Besides he, being an exorcist is just a tool. Valuing him too much does not go well with ordes ways. Order is not going to do anything. Unless a part of church their existance has no meaning after all.
    They had months to do so when he was in the Order. What I meant, though, was that the NOAH couldn't get to Cross... at least, not at that time (Crow were already at the new HQ), hence why Crow would've been used.

    He's an Exorcist, yes, but he's also a General. He's a tool, but one with a fair amount of power, knowledge, and the ability to seriously fuck things up that a normal Exorcist doesn't have.

    Lifes of their family members.
    I don't think that would work. Assuming Crow even has them and knows about them (that they don't take orphans or very young children and raise them to be completely independent), would they even value human lives like that, being assassins?

    Viraten: It's assumed that Cross is dead because of the wound to the head and being incompatible with Judgment. If not, something weird is up with him (but he still got shot~).
    ~Digital_Eon~




  9. #19
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    They had months to do so when he was in the Order. What I meant, though, was that the NOAH couldn't get to Cross... at least, not at that time (Crow were already at the new HQ), hence why Crow would've been used.
    Did he really spend there that long? If it is so then most likely he was not considered as that much of a threat... untill something happened. The most likely candidate here will be Allens relation to 14th being revealed to public, and to higher ups as well. If his assasination is work of the church then it must mean they fear Noahs so much that they decided to take a General out just because of that. If it were Noahs work... they knew abut his connection all along. So yeah, this means its not their order that made Crosses head fall.

    Noah themselves did not know his location for sure - Jasdevi was searching for him but failed at teh very last moment.

    He's an Exorcist, yes, but he's also a General. He's a tool, but one with a fair amount of power, knowledge, and the ability to seriously fuck things up that a normal Exorcist doesn't have.
    His ability to fuck things up gives church even more reason to prevent him from doing so by killing him. Apparently, Genral position is not high enough to be considered a head council member.

    I don't think that would work. Assuming Crow even has them and knows about them (that they don't take orphans or very young children and raise them to be completely independent), would they even value human lives like that, being assassins?
    They would of course. Your relatieves are still your relatives, even if your work is to kill. If they are orphans then pf corse it would be impossible. One more argument still remains - if Crow member is kick off from church what will he do? Considering that was his only home up untill now....

    @ Viraten: From what we have seen his wound is extremely dangerous. And amount of blood he lost.... Heck, this is not Bleach after all. Logically he should be dead.

  10. #20
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Did he really spend there that long? If it is so then most likely he was not considered as that much of a threat... untill something happened. The most likely candidate here will be Allens relation to 14th being revealed to public, and to higher ups as well. If his assasination is work of the church then it must mean they fear Noahs so much that they decided to take a General out just because of that. If it were Noahs work... they knew abut his connection all along. So yeah, this means its not their order that made Crosses head fall.
    Cross was killed in September; by all accounts, he was discovered in late winter/early spring (we assume). At least three months, and probably more, passed - if Lenalee's hair is any indication. I guess it could've taken him that long to go to and from Central, but he was with Levellier then - and at CENTRAL, of all places; c'mon! If they'd wanted to kill him then, they could have.

    I think the 14th-information was the trigger, or at least the only thing keeping him alive. Central wanted that information to be revealed to Allen somehow, by someone he trusted, or maybe to determine that Cross had told them the absolute truth (hey, maybe he didn't). I can't see how that benefits the Earl/Noah in any way unless he's just curious... but I guess we'll see what they know next time we meet up with them. In 158, the Earl wasn't aware that Allen was the 14th; heck, he didn't even know Allen had those powers until the Ark collapsed. If he doesn't know about Allen, then we can conclude he doesn't even have spies (>_> unlikely), but even if he does... I still can't really see how this is a good thing, especially with Central keeping it something of a secret.

    His ability to fuck things up gives church even more reason to prevent him from doing so by killing him. Apparently, Genral position is not high enough to be considered a head council member.
    No, he's not one of those guys, but it's possible that it would be impossible (since Generals do spend most of their time running around the world finding Conformers - it might be a bad idea to keep them inside, unconnected to Exorcists in any way). He's still high-ranking, though, enough that I doubt one single person besides the Pope could give the Order and Crow would follow through on it. Cross outranks (some of?) them anyway, if Link's "Inspector" title is any indication. It could be a disguise, but... I dunno... I'm inclined to think that Link is at the level he openly appears to be and Crow roles are outside the usual hierarchy.

    They would of course. Your relatieves are still your relatives, even if your work is to kill. If they are orphans then pf corse it would be impossible. One more argument still remains - if Crow member is kick off from church what will he do? Considering that was his only home up untill now....
    Some of them might really be heartless enough not to care, especially if they've been separated from those relatives for so long they don't remember them or really care for them as anything other than random humans. What if Allen met up with his real parents again, assuming they're alive and ordinary people? Sure, he'd try to protect them because they're people, but he probably wouldn't care for them in a special way.

    Could a single person really fire a Crow member just because that Crow picked the official rules over one person's petty desire?

    @ Viraten: From what we have seen his wound is extremely dangerous. And amount of blood he lost.... Heck, this is not Bleach after all. Logically he should be dead.
    It was hinted that he *might* not be dead, but again, Hoshino has also implied that for such a thing to be the case, something would be very strange about Cross. Very few characters don't die from fatal wounds in DGM, and all of them have good reasons (Kanda has his tattoo thingy, Road has some kind of weird immortality that's related to her overall powers, and Allen and Lenalee are... well, special, but people do find those incidents to be unusual). Okay, all mysteries, but yeah... this isn't Bleach. =P Either Cross is dead or the reason will be the plot twist more than finding out he isn't dead.
    ~Digital_Eon~




 

 
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