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  1. #21
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Probably just to keep up with the "I'm a proper English lad" persona. Still it is an interesting question.

    Also nice to see that Link can fight, and possibally use magic. For all we know the magic being used could of been dirived from a diffrent religion. If they explain it as such, well at least it would keep with the world in some respects (I imagine that it is like the real world where there are multiple religions even if the Christian beleife system is the most popular).

    Not to mention I've always wanted to say some smart arse comment about Link needing the Master Sword, but now I feel justified to at least mention that now that we know he can fight.

  2. #22
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman View Post
    Man, you guys are doing the 4-metre long repies to each other again...
    Bah, and now you hate me for that T_T....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman View Post
    Cross can(could?) use magic, and I'm pretty sure it's real, honest-to-goodness magic. To disguise his shape, and to bust barriers, and all the rest. He said something about being a sorcerer...
    Magic in DGM word makes no sense. There are two sources of energy, Dark Matter and innocence. And some scientific things developed from innocence research. Unless Hoshino explains magic propery that'd look like a plothole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    Assuming they're sent on missions? (Well, okay, Link was, but as himself, not Crow.) I doubt they're babysitters. Maybe they're involved in his curse - to save his life, though?
    Nah, iconsiderign how order treats exorcists it can't out saving Kanda's life as one of Crows goals. The only reason for Kanda to have relationshi[ with someone from Crow is to find the person he is looking for.

    Seems likely to me. Actually, I wonder if Lenalee knows... It's hard to say, but that might be important (she was something of a wild card herself when she was younger and might know about Kanda's past).
    If they are really that secret - its unlikley. Komui would not want to endanger her by sharing some secret info.

    I've heard people think that was the "14th's Will" or whatever that was referenced before, but... personally, I sort of doubt it. Why not let Cross control the Ark - unless he didn't trust the guy (not hard =P), but then, why transfer any power? I suspect that it may not be possible or else the Noah would have used it by now, but maybe the reason Cross has those powers relates to the 14th in another way? How they met?
    Well, if those are in the form of "spells" that give person some kind of control over arc - like opening some doors (not total control of course) he could have taught Cross it. But the core of arc moving powers must be hidden inside 14th soul - hence he could not give this powers to Cross. The reason for giving those spells to Cross would be making him help 14th in teh future to retake control over arc. Which pretty much happned already.

    Terribly? They could be great at their job. Noah have been reborn more than once, yet we've heard nothing of them (well, besides the 14th); for all we know, Crow's been getting to them. Maybe they've learned to disguise themselves better... or just don't go out into society. Aside from the Kamelot family, we saw no sign that Jasdevi/Skinn/Lulu had alternate lives... and Sheril/Road use theirs as disguises to manipulate the world. Tiki's the only one who really does it for fun.
    Terribly, because Shreil is still alive. And has great impact on world politics, most likely. I don't think that Crow was really hunting Noahs in teh past; I recall something about Noahs started to appear only recently actually.

    Crow has powers we don't know of; they're excellent fighters and they DO have useful spells. Prevent a Noah from moving and some of them will be defeated; chances are they have other abilities we haven't seen because G didn't feel like using them.
    Perhaps they do have the means of fighting Noahs, we have no really reliable info on that.

    It should be, but the Order seems to have a pretty good success rate; in the last year alone they've found three Conformers! That's a bit much, true, but compared to the ten-plus years needed to train a new Crow... and if the Order can retrieve the Innocence...
    You can train as many children at the moment as you want. Heck, you can train a thousand of them simultaneously. Innocence compatible people are much more rare.

    They'll get a Noah by accident! Oooh, I want to see how Sheril's actions relate to the world and the Order...
    Thats one of reasone i want manga to focus on plot again so badly. We have so many things yet to be revealed....

    Quote Originally Posted by ranteil View Post
    Also nice to see that Link can fight, and possibally use magic. For all we know the magic being used could of been dirived from a diffrent religion. If they explain it as such, well at least it would keep with the world in some respects (I imagine that it is like the real world where there are multiple religions even if the Christian beleife system is the most popular).
    That would contradict the main aspect of Christianity - there is only one god. Considering manga's world follows christianic consepts i find the main rule being broken here highly unlikely.

  3. #23
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranteil
    Probably just to keep up with the "I'm a proper English lad" persona. Still it is an interesting question.
    AHAHAHA that would be great. Or maybe it's for the verbal pun with Crown(ed) Clown; they're pronounced the same in Japanese?

    Also nice to see that Link can fight, and possibally use magic. For all we know the magic being used could of been dirived from a diffrent religion. If they explain it as such, well at least it would keep with the world in some respects (I imagine that it is like the real world where there are multiple religions even if the Christian beleife system is the most popular).
    We know Link can fight (Allen forgot the level 4 battle, but he was there), and we did know he was part of Crow/about Crow earlier... but I guess now this stuff about abilities is confirmed. About the religions thing - most world religions are related. It could be related to Hinduism/Buddhism/etc... isn't that magical symbol/Kanda's tattoo derived from Sanskrit or something? I might be wrong about that. Hmm.

    Not to mention I've always wanted to say some smart arse comment about Link needing the Master Sword, but now I feel justified to at least mention that now that we know he can fight.
    Hey! Listen! Hey! Listen!

    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    Magic in DGM word makes no sense. There are two sources of energy, Dark Matter and innocence. And some scientific things developed from innocence research. Unless Hoshino explains magic propery that'd look like a plothole.
    Hence why the 'magic' we hear of is a mystery. Presumably it relates to one or the other, or is a third (neutral?) force entirely. Presumably Hoshino will explain it; I trust her to...

    Nah, iconsiderign how order treats exorcists it can't out saving Kanda's life as one of Crows goals. The only reason for Kanda to have relationshi[ with someone from Crow is to find the person he is looking for.
    Okay, whoops, Kanda said he didn't know them that well... but he did know OF them, which is a bit confusing. Maybe they did kill his family or something.

    If they are really that secret - its unlikley. Komui would not want to endanger her by sharing some secret info.
    No, not that Komui shared anything, but that she found out somehow when she was younger (Kanda came to the Order before Komui).

    Well, if those are in the form of "spells" that give person some kind of control over arc - like opening some doors (not total control of course) he could have taught Cross it. But the core of arc moving powers must be hidden inside 14th soul - hence he could not give this powers to Cross. The reason for giving those spells to Cross would be making him help 14th in teh future to retake control over arc. Which pretty much happned already.
    Hmmm... I guess it could be, but it's hard to say; we haven't seen any other Noah do it nor any sign that it's possible.

    Terribly, because Shreil is still alive. And has great impact on world politics, most likely. I don't think that Crow was really hunting Noahs in teh past; I recall something about Noahs started to appear only recently actually.
    He might not have captured their attention yet, or at least not in a negative way. Perhaps he's doing exactly what the Order wants (well, for one, the obvious thing about a war = more akuma; does the Order want that?). I'm pretty sure the Noah have been around for ages, though... but I'll be damned if I can remember the reference. It's worth noting, however, that all the Noah are roughly in the same generation (let's assume Road is older than she looks and Sheril is around Komui's age). The 14th is an exception... but how would it be known he was a 14th if the other Noah hadn't even been born at the time?

    Perhaps they do have the means of fighting Noahs, we have no really reliable info on that.
    True. (Although their spells seem pretty generalized at the moment.)

    You can train as many children at the moment as you want. Heck, you can train a thousand of them simultaneously. Innocence compatible people are much more rare.
    But it takes many years (at least a decade?) to get those kids to the necessary level. Once you find a conformer, they're almost instantaneously ready to fight or require very little training. Considering how many the Order has found (...well, and they died), and how much effort they put into finding more...

    Thats one of reasone i want manga to focus on plot again so badly. We have so many things yet to be revealed....
    I know~ I guess this arc wasn't entirely useless, though; we did find out Cross's message and a bit about Link...

    That would contradict the main aspect of Christianity - there is only one god. Considering manga's world follows christianic consepts i find the main rule being broken here highly unlikely.
    There could still be different traditions, though, maybe... It's doubtful we'll hear much of them, though. Even the world of DGM points to Catholicism being the 'correct' interpretation (with the powarz and all), and the main two protagonists, at least, have expressed strong opinions on this...
    ~Digital_Eon~




  4. #24
    ranteil is offline Senior Member Respected Member
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    Not to mention that if you look in our world, while Christianity is the most popular, it isn't by far the only religion. Also note that even the Jewish faith does have spells and rituals which are used or know of (see golom), and (I know I'm going to butcher this so please forgive me) Juedisum is the for-runner of Christianity. So magic can't just be written off the books. If DGM represents even two diffrent religions, who says magic can't exist in that world? Also the Knights Templer used magic and rituals untill they were disbanded.

  5. #25
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Christianity thinks it's the only true religion, though. Still... the story of Noah is in Judaism, too. It's very possible that magic is also related to the religion somehow, and likely considering that's the source of all these mysterious things, but it seems we'll have to wait and see what Hoshino has to say about its origins and effect on the world.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  6. #26
    Sherman is offline Senior Member Always Around
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    ...Oddly enough, DGM is one comic that doesn't write every attack in Japanese - Allen's are all in Engrish. =P Well, okay, there's kanji, but the pronounciation is exactly how we read them. Dunno why it's the case for him and not for the others, but...
    They are in Japanese, just in funky English-wannabe katakana ;p Same with most attacks from other characters, like Lenalee's "Daaku Buutsu" or Tiedoll's "Meekaa obu Eden". Not gonna bother to see if all attacks by them are like that or not, but I don't think there's anything special for Allen here.

    And man, those pages of replies are just tiring to read. I do hate you, reinard.

  7. #27
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Bah, that's English. =P Lenalee's Innocence has an English name but her attacks don't; dunno about Tiedoll.

    Sorry, Sherman!
    ~Digital_Eon~




  8. #28
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman
    And man, those pages of replies are just tiring to read. I do hate you, reinard.
    And i was trying my best to not post too much T_T

    Quote Originally Posted by rantiel
    Not to mention that if you look in our world, while Christianity is the most popular, it isn't by far the only religion. Also note that even the Jewish faith does have spells and rituals which are used or know of (see golom), and (I know I'm going to butcher this so please forgive me) Juedisum is the for-runner of Christianity. So magic can't just be written off the books. If DGM represents even two diffrent religions, who says magic can't exist in that world? Also the Knights Templer used magic and rituals untill they were disbanded.
    We are not talking about our world though; we are discussing only DGM one. And there only one god is confirmed - the one of christians tradition. Hence, forces that are empowered by other gods make no sense.

    Jeudaism and Christianity share teh same god though. Even if manga is based on both of them there still remains only on god in DGM world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    No, not that Komui shared anything, but that she found out somehow when she was younger (Kanda came to the Order before Komui).
    She could have found pou accidentely of course; like by overhearing her brother talking to someone about it or somehow else. We still do not know how Kanda got his info - perhaps he was investigating the matter.

    Hmmm... I guess it could be, but it's hard to say; we haven't seen any other Noah do it nor any sign that it's possible.

    He might not have captured their attention yet, or at least not in a negative way. Perhaps he's doing exactly what the Order wants (well, for one, the obvious thing about a war = more akuma; does the Order want that?). I'm pretty sure the Noah have been around for ages, though... but I'll be damned if I can remember the reference. It's worth noting, however, that all the Noah are roughly in the same generation (let's assume Road is older than she looks and Sheril is around Komui's age). The 14th is an exception... but how would it be known he was a 14th if the other Noah hadn't even been born at the time?
    Official version is that Order does not want war and akuma. Hence they can't be overlooking his presence because of his actions being profitable for them.

    How many Noah are there? Is there a deffinite number? (I forgot...) Also, the story with 14th betrayal is not that far in the past, it happened fairly recently. And considering Noah were not active untill this year, i can hardly belive Crows role was ot hunt them. You can't hunt after the goal that you do not know about after all.

    But it takes many years (at least a decade?) to get those kids to the necessary level. Once you find a conformer, they're almost instantaneously ready to fight or require very little training. Considering how many the Order has found (...well, and they died), and how much effort they put into finding more...
    Maths: 1 year - 3 compatible persons (I know its too much, lets assume its this way) = 30 people in 10 years.

    1 Crow training group - 1000 children. Training takes 10 years. Meaning in then years they'll have 1000 new assasins.

    I think its easier to find new Crow members actually...

  9. #29
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reinard-fox View Post
    And i was trying my best to not post too much T_T
    I think it's fun! =D

    She could have found pou accidentely of course; like by overhearing her brother talking to someone about it or somehow else. We still do not know how Kanda got his info - perhaps he was investigating the matter.
    If she does know, it's probably because of/related to Kanda somehow. What reason would Komui have to speak of such a thing, especially where Lenalee would be?

    Official version is that Order does not want war and akuma. Hence they can't be overlooking his presence because of his actions being profitable for them.
    Why would they go after Sheril, though? It's hardly his fault; the official story there (that the Order would have no reason not to believe if they don't know Sheril is a Noah) is that someone from the other country tried to assassinate Sheril. He started the war, but the Order would blame the other country for starting conflict.

    How many Noah are there? Is there a deffinite number? (I forgot...) Also, the story with 14th betrayal is not that far in the past, it happened fairly recently. And considering Noah were not active untill this year, i can hardly belive Crows role was ot hunt them. You can't hunt after the goal that you do not know about after all.
    Thirteen (plus the Fourteenth, but Boric's dead). The 14th was obviously born a long time ago; if Mana is any indication, the guy would be 40 or so right now. That's a large generation gap.

    I just proposed a suggestion that maybe the Noah weren't active BECAUSE of Crow. They didn't have all thirteen, or there were other circumstances, or something happened and Crow kept picking them off until recently, when they learned to hide themselves better or something.

    Maths: 1 year - 3 compatible persons (I know its too much, lets assume its this way) = 30 people in 10 years.

    1 Crow training group - 1000 children. Training takes 10 years. Meaning in then years they'll have 1000 new assasins.
    The Order doesn't necessarily have ten years. They need what they can get NOW, especially at a time when the Earl's plan is in its final stages.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  10. #30
    reinard-fox is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon View Post
    I think it's fun! =D
    I think so too ;P Thats why i do post this long replies.

    If she does know, it's probably because of/related to Kanda somehow. What reason would Komui have to speak of such a thing, especially where Lenalee would be?
    He might had been speaking about it with someone else and then Linalee had accidently overheard it. What reason will Kande have to tell her? They seem to share some sort of connction though, maybe he was sharing some of his knowledge with her... That said, i seriously doubt he would not ahve realised how dangerous for her such info might be.

    Why would they go after Sheril, though? It's hardly his fault; the official story there (that the Order would have no reason not to believe if they don't know Sheril is a Noah) is that someone from the other country tried to assassinate Sheril. He started the war, but the Order would blame the other country for starting conflict.
    If they are spy organisation they are supposed ot have their own ways of figuring out who is Noah and who is not. I cant think of any right now, but if they are unable to find them then how can they hunt them?

    Thirteen (plus the Fourteenth, but Boric's dead). The 14th was obviously born a long time ago; if Mana is any indication, the guy would be 40 or so right now. That's a large generation gap.
    Well, its not that much actually. Earl was residenting in Japan for about 200 years now, that might have been the time he started gatehring forces. And that might be the time first Noahs appeared. As for their numbers... They might mean the order of awakening, or something else. Is there any bible related symbol that has numbers from 1 to 14?

    I just proposed a suggestion that maybe the Noah weren't active BECAUSE of Crow. They didn't have all thirteen, or there were other circumstances, or something happened and Crow kept picking them off until recently, when they learned to hide themselves better or something.
    Maybe, of course. But i personally think that the increase in their activity is connected with the End of the world that is near, according to Earl. Perhaps he just did not need them to act until recently.

    The Order doesn't necessarily have ten years. They need what they can get NOW, especially at a time when the Earl's plan is in its final stages.
    Its not like they've started to train Crow memebrs right now either; what i meant is that if they've started the process 11 years ago they alredy do have 1000(or pick up any other number) we trained assasins. And 11 exorcists.

 

 
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