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  1. #1
    Paper_Thin_Hymn is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Default After a Careful Analysis....// Spoilers Possible, By the way.

    The bean sprout's voice descends from the sky.....

    Hello. The village n00b is speaking.

    So, anyways....not sure how I ended up here. I think it was because I had just finished reading all of the latest chapters of the D. Gray-Man manga, and then had a thought....or rather, a sudden, explosive revelation that made me go back and read chapter 158 several times. And after a very careful analysis, I came to this conclusion: it seems as though there is a spy within the Order. And then I needed to see if anyone else had thought of this, so I went and looked up all the discussions of chapter 158 I could find....and not a single one mentioned anything about it. So, I felt that I ought to put out my good two cents' worth.

    Once upon a time, before I gained more information about his character, my money would've been on Rouvellier...but now I'm not so sure.

    How I ended up coming down to this line of thought was when I was first reading the earlier chapters where Rouvellier first appeared....and, y'know, he looks awfully evil--in my opinion, he looks like Hitler, actually, pro'lly the broom 'stache--and my mind suddenly, randomly drifted to a quote I had read in a movie review of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. And this quote was something along the lines of, "the powers that be may be working for Voldemort...."

    Didn't even think about it for a while, until just after reading Chapter 158, when this particular page came to mind:

    "The excorcists are all suspicious of each other....It must be hard for the one in hiding....." or something along those lines, as said by either Tykki or Sheryll, not sure which.

    And then, in one of the panels, we see a picture of whatshisface (whom I'm still not entirely convinced is the Earl's human form so much as someone else entirely, but that's a different discussion) laying a finger forcefully upon a stack of files on the table--the top two being Allen's and Cross' files, as shown by the pictures.

    So I mulled over that for a moment....maybe I'm thinking too hard, but could "the one in hiding" be referring not to the heart, but to a spy the Noah have planted within the Order? And where did they get those files? It seems awfully suspicious, since the Noah don't seem too keen on keeping files on all their enemies....perhaps this secret spy stole the files for them, in order to help gain more information?

    So, then I went back and read the chapter where we first meet Rouvellier....and it is important to notice, as Cross himself does, that the Inspector knows an awful lot more than he ought to. It seems to be implied that when Cross was sent on the mission, the specific task set was for him to destroy the Akuma plant--not to infiltrate the Ark, because it is implied that Cross thought the Order didn't know the Plant was inside the Ark. And, as Cross then asks, "Who'd you ask to get all that information?"

    And of course, Rouvellier doesn't answer the question, and replies with the classic bad-cop, "I'm the one asking the questions here" line.

    It all seems to point to a spy somewhere, but I'm still trying to figure it out myself....

    So, I thought I'd find someone to give input on this little thought.

    I went to a different site first, actually, but I couldn't activate my account for whatever technical reason. So now I'm here.

  2. #2
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
    Digital_Eon is offline Super Moderator Community Builder
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    It was heavily implied that it was Lulubell who took the files/pictures that were present in 158; she also had information not known to other Noah at the time (that Allen could control the Ark), likely because of her impersonation of the branch head. If she were at the meeting in 136, she would have had all this information.

    I understood Rouvelier's line as meaning something else completely: that the Order knows some very important things about the Earl that even high-ranking members (like Cross) aren't aware of. If Rouvelier were a spy, saying such a thing to a man as intelligent as Cross would not be a good move; it would definitely make Cross suspicious if he knew Rouvelier was aware of things the Order doesn't know of. However, if the Vatican and other high-ranking Order members have been keeping tons of secrets, Rouvelier's line makes sense - Cross could know the Order is keeping secrets and yet have no idea about what exactly those secrets are. One thing I've been wondering about is the true motivation for fighting the Earl: is it because God wants the Order to fight against the Earl and the destruction of humanity? Or are there other reasons?

    Also, the line about "the one in hiding": it does refer to the Heart. The Earl is saying in those lines that his plan is to make the Exorcists suspect each other so that the Heart will have a difficult time concealing itself (resulting in its identity being revealed, which is good for the Earl).

    However, as I said in another thread (I think?), it seems foolish that the Earl wouldn't have spies in the Order at all. I think that was one reason that Hoshino showed us the Earl's human followers in 157/158: to drop the hint that the Earl doesn't only have akuma and Noah working for him. Akuma would be useless now that Allen's in the Order, and there are only twelve Noah maximum (why send one to stay in the Order permanently?), but a regular human spy could go completely undetected. Of course, to be useful, the spy would probably have to be someone of a fairly high rank (for information). I doubt the Earl would have spies only in low-ranking positions where they wouldn't have access to plans much less be able to bring the Order down from the inside if necessary.

    So could it be anyone we've seen? It can't be a General, for obvious reasons. Lulu impersonated a branch head already, and it seems unlikely that more than one would be a spy (especially since Lulu could have had easier access to the Egg if she impersonated a scientist). I doubt it's Rouvelier - he has a history in the Order, and unless his horrible childhood led him to betray it... and anyway, he's already an antagonist. It makes more sense for him to be completely on the side of the less-than-perfect Order. (Besides, Komui's thoughts imply that Rouvelier's attitude is typical of high-ranking Order workers.)

    What about Komui? He'd certainly be an interesting choice. As the Chief Monitor, he's in charge of almost everyone within the Order itself. It's clear that he has power, even if he doesn't tend to use it. Motivations could be to protect Lenalee (note that she's actually stayed fairly safe even in conflicts with the Noah - although that might not say very much). And, of course, Komui as a spy would just be REALLY awesome and a great plot twist.

    However, I'm leaning more towards Link... since we really don't know much about him. He's very young, but he's been trusted with quite a bit of important information himself simply by being present at that meeting in chapter 136. He's currently supervising Allen, who is suspected by the Noah of a number of things (which they would certainly want to keep an eye on him for). Boric's flashback showed us that the Noah apparently sent an akuma to him when he was becoming a Noah, too. Yes, Link did let Allen into the laboratory when Lulubell was in there, which is an argument against him (for now), but that'd be a pretty good role for a spy if there is one in the Order, and if it's someone we've seen (rather than some nameless scientist or Rouvelier's boss/coworker or something).
    ~Digital_Eon~




  3. #3
    BlueDemon is offline Senior Member Community Builder
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    ^well,wait a little for digi ,u´ll have a lot to discuss
    Rouvellier is a lil suspicious,but I don´t think he´s a spy^^
    but whatever,you´ve got a good theory there

    edit: she was quicker lol

  4. #4
    Paper_Thin_Hymn is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    I'm still skeptical about the Lulubell part, so I'd definitely like to know where that's heavily implied so that I can check it out. But that definitely makes sense......also, seeing as the Oceanian branch head was found dead out in the canal, he may have been dead before he even arrived. So yes, it's very well possible that she was at the meeting, come to think of it.

    Like I said, I'm not so sure about Rouvelier anymore, since we've gotten a little more insight into his character. But I'm with Cross, I do want to know who he asked to get his information.....as for the "motivation to fight the Earl" it might indeed go along with simply fighting a Holy War....after all, it's shown in history with the Crusades and all sorts of such things that very often, the Catholic Church was unconcerned with the well-being of the people and soldiers, so much as they simply want to go on a rampage of taking back the holy land and what-not, stuff like that. Of course, assuming that this series takes place in the 1800s, it seems as though it would be after the Catholic Church had somewhat moderately reformed itself. Which, of course, would then support the idea of the alternate motivation you speak of.

    And that would indeed be consistent, if he was....and it would also shed more light on what Bookman was wondering about in chapter 157, about why the Earl was letting the Order survive. But on another thought, if the Earl could have crushed the Order hundreds of years ago, then it would be illogical of him to wait around simply to allow them to find the heart....obviously, if he just wiped them out altogether, it would get rid of any opposition he might have--even though there are still pieces of Innocence that haven't been found, any new compatible users would be out in the dark, with no clue, and he could easily finish them off, as well. I have a feeling it may have something to do with the "true meaning behind the Akuma's evolution" that he talks about, because there's obviously some deeper, possibly-horrific truth underneath all of this.

    It's also shown that the Noah have a hand in starting wars, in order to be able to create more Akuma. Obviously, they had Sheryll and his Akuma accomplices set up that whole asssasination attempt to start a war between two countries. Is it possible that they've got people planted within the Order itself, to achieve a similar type of manipulation of events? After all, the Order's been around for thousands of years.....and going back to the Crusades, plenty of people died then, and that involved the Catholic church. Therefore, it's safe to conclude that Crusades = Akuma for the Earl. So if the Earl, say, wanted to start another sort of Holy War where the Church had to fight other people, and he had spies within the Order, it would be fairly easy to do so.

    It may or may not be anyone we've already seen. It obviously isn't an Excorcist, because as my brother pointed out, any Excorcist who tried to work with the Earl would almost certainly end up a Togaochi. While the idea that Komui could be a spy is possible, it's shown that his position isn't really all that high-ranking....after all, he had no clue about any of the information that the Inspector put out at the meeting, and the only reason any of the branch heads--Bak or Komui, specifically--were able to keep them from trying Allen Walker for heresy were through Cross' intervention, and then only as a temporary measure to hold off the flood of problems for a little while longer. Even then, there were strict regulations placed upon the Order--Allen and Cross couldn't meet whatsoever, and all that paperwork, and Allen was placed under supervision. However, it is still possible....though my mind wants to shy away from the prospect, as we would lose a good deal of comic relief if Komui was suddenly revealed to be evil.

    My mind's having trouble wrapping itself around the fact that Link is male. I keep wanting to think that he's a really ugly woman.

    It's very possible that Link could be a spy, but it's important to note that he allowed Allen access to the Ark against Rouvellier's orders, to allow him and Bookman to get into the Chemistry Area and help the Science Group. However, he may have done that to allow Lulubell easier access to Allen......and like you said, we don't know much about Link, so it could be a possibility.

    However, it's also possible that there may be someone from the Vatican, a high-ranking official whom we haven't met yet, who might be a spy....heck, if the Pope himself were a spy, I wouldn't be surprised......

    I keep thinking to myself that Cross may not return from the meeting he's gone to with Rouvellier. It seems kind of dangerous to me, whether the higher-ups are working with the Earl or not. But I comfort myself by saying that Cross is probably the most powerful excorcist in the Order, and there's no known weapon the Order has that could take him down (and obviously, if they gave him some sort of court order, it's doubtful he'd actually care). In fact, on that line of thought, not even the Noah are all that great against him, shown by his encounter with psycho-Tykki on the arc. Even the Earl is shown to be a little worried about Cross.....

  5. #5
    Digital_Eon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paper_Thin_Hymn View Post
    I'm still skeptical about the Lulubell part, so I'd definitely like to know where that's heavily implied so that I can check it out. But that definitely makes sense......also, seeing as the Oceanian branch head was found dead out in the canal, he may have been dead before he even arrived. So yes, it's very well possible that she was at the meeting, come to think of it.
    It seems more likely that he was killed at the Order, or very close to it (hence the dumping of the body in the canal), but I doubt they'd call the meeting the moment he arrived. I'm sure he was left unsupervised long enough for Lulu to switch with him... and she probably was observing him in the past, too, so that she wouldn't be caught right away.

    And that would indeed be consistent, if he was....and it would also shed more light on what Bookman was wondering about in chapter 157, about why the Earl was letting the Order survive. But on another thought, if the Earl could have crushed the Order hundreds of years ago, then it would be illogical of him to wait around simply to allow them to find the heart....obviously, if he just wiped them out altogether, it would get rid of any opposition he might have--even though there are still pieces of Innocence that haven't been found, any new compatible users would be out in the dark, with no clue, and he could easily finish them off, as well. I have a feeling it may have something to do with the "true meaning behind the Akuma's evolution" that he talks about, because there's obviously some deeper, possibly-horrific truth underneath all of this.
    It's possible that he's keeping the Order alive because they don't present enough of a threat to the Earl; for example, if the Order were destroyed, they'd find a way to rebuild themselves even stronger than now. I'm more inclined to think that this is something bigger, though - maybe that the Earl and Order are even working together to achieve some end. Reinard had a theory that the akuma exist to consolidate two souls at once. The Earl wants to bring the "three days of darkness" (aka: the Apocalypse). So why couldn't the Order be working with the Earl to achieve this end? After all, the Exorcists supposedly 'won' thousands of years ago when the world was destroyed. If the akuma were allowed to run freely, some form of opposition would arise, possibly one that the Earl can't control (this works even if the Order is opposing the Earl; he could still have a hand in how it runs, albeit not openly).

    It's also shown that the Noah have a hand in starting wars, in order to be able to create more Akuma. Obviously, they had Sheryll and his Akuma accomplices set up that whole asssasination attempt to start a war between two countries. Is it possible that they've got people planted within the Order itself, to achieve a similar type of manipulation of events? After all, the Order's been around for thousands of years.....and going back to the Crusades, plenty of people died then, and that involved the Catholic church. Therefore, it's safe to conclude that Crusades = Akuma for the Earl. So if the Earl, say, wanted to start another sort of Holy War where the Church had to fight other people, and he had spies within the Order, it would be fairly easy to do so.
    The Order itself appears to have only been around for a hundred years, but it's controlled by/an offshoot of the Vatican, which was definitely involved in that. Moreover, the Order itself doesn't seem to care much about the lives of humans; witness how it treats its own Exorcists (or the Finders, or the scientists, etc.). Even better, we've seen plenty of havoc when Exorcists enter a battle against an akuma. Throughout the chapters, we've seen that akuma actually tend to stick to themselves on many occasions... take chapter 1, for example. The akuma only ate travellers that stayed in the church. What happened when Allen appeared? The police died. Even in volume 4, Allen and Lavi caused damage to the city (and possible human death?) because they couldn't tell who was an akuma and who wasn't. The Order hasn't done a huge amount to really help the living humans when that's exactly what they should be doing - if not for the sake of humanity, to prevent more akuma from being born.

    It may or may not be anyone we've already seen. It obviously isn't an Excorcist, because as my brother pointed out, any Excorcist who tried to work with the Earl would almost certainly end up a Togaochi. While the idea that Komui could be a spy is possible, it's shown that his position isn't really all that high-ranking....after all, he had no clue about any of the information that the Inspector put out at the meeting, and the only reason any of the branch heads--Bak or Komui, specifically--were able to keep them from trying Allen Walker for heresy were through Cross' intervention, and then only as a temporary measure to hold off the flood of problems for a little while longer. Even then, there were strict regulations placed upon the Order--Allen and Cross couldn't meet whatsoever, and all that paperwork, and Allen was placed under supervision. However, it is still possible....though my mind wants to shy away from the prospect, as we would lose a good deal of comic relief if Komui was suddenly revealed to be evil.
    Komui does have access to meetings, if not more information. He did get promoted through the ranks fairly quickly, especially considering his age, and he *does* have power over everyone in the Order except for the Generals. Komui's attitude towards Exorcists could be a reason why the Order doesn't trust him with certain tasks or information. I don't think it's likely, especially considering Komui's general attitude towards everything (particularly people), but it would be a great role to have a spy in. As for why he couldn't exert more power in the Allen situation, Komui doesn't enjoy absolute power when the higher-ups are concerned. What he did fits with his character, but I doubt that a non-spy Komui would even have disagreed with what Rouvelier conceded. Allen may be a good guy and Komui knows that, but the evidence pointed (points, actually) to Allen having Noah connections, and it's hardly harming Allen to be supervised by Link or to not be allowed to speak to Cross. (I think the paperwork was a disguise; Link used it to get Allen away from Lavi/Miranda and ended up talking about the 14th with him.)

    Random note, though: Who's been responsible for destroying the Order two of the three times it's happened? =P

    My mind's having trouble wrapping itself around the fact that Link is male. I keep wanting to think that he's a really ugly woman.
    XDDD Well, maybe he is... and has a name change....

    It's very possible that Link could be a spy, but it's important to note that he allowed Allen access to the Ark against Rouvellier's orders, to allow him and Bookman to get into the Chemistry Area and help the Science Group. However, he may have done that to allow Lulubell easier access to Allen......and like you said, we don't know much about Link, so it could be a possibility.
    Yeah, that's the one thing I can't really explain away completely. It could be that he needed to do so to gain Allen's trust... and he did go against Rouvelier's orders, after all. At the time, it probably didn't seem likely that Allen and the Generals (well, the Generals weren't even THERE) would destroy the Egg. Actually, if the Generals & Miranda hadn't shown up, the Noah would not only have had the Egg but Allen too... and the Order would have lost two Exorcists. He delivered Allen straight into Lulu's hands. Of course, it didn't work out as she expected it to, but it could have been a risk Link took if he were a spy. (Alternatively, not doing so could have revealed his disguise to intelligent witnesses like Lavi. It's obviously in the Earl's best interests to keep a spy there.)

    Anyway, destroying the Egg was probably better for the Earl than letting the Order keep it to perform research on it.

    However, it's also possible that there may be someone from the Vatican, a high-ranking official whom we haven't met yet, who might be a spy....heck, if the Pope himself were a spy, I wouldn't be surprised......
    Then he's not really a spy, is he? XD It would be interesting, though.

    I keep thinking to myself that Cross may not return from the meeting he's gone to with Rouvellier. It seems kind of dangerous to me, whether the higher-ups are working with the Earl or not. But I comfort myself by saying that Cross is probably the most powerful excorcist in the Order, and there's no known weapon the Order has that could take him down (and obviously, if they gave him some sort of court order, it's doubtful he'd actually care). In fact, on that line of thought, not even the Noah are all that great against him, shown by his encounter with psycho-Tykki on the arc. Even the Earl is shown to be a little worried about Cross.....
    Cross is still human and vulnerable; for all we know, they could shoot him in the head from afar without him even being able to do something about it. After all, if he accuses them of doing such a thing, he could be tried for heresy himself (and there goes Allen, for associating with Cross). Cross's actions seem to support the Order, though; he did try to fulfill his orders to destroy the Egg, and he trained Allen to be an Exorcist. I think this is important to the secret of the 14th, though; I've always suspected that the 14th may not quite have been trying to betray the Earl. If Cross was involved with the 14th AND is suspicious of the Order himself (which we might see in a Cross POV in future chapters, or even if something happens to him while at the meeting), that'd prove that. On the other hand, if Cross returns safe and sound and gets to talk to Allen - and does so - he's almost certainly involved in whatever the Order is doing, and supports it. Cross isn't really a nice guy, after all. I wouldn't put it past him to manipulate Allen like that to achieve some other ends... he already has.
    ~Digital_Eon~




  6. #6
    Paper_Thin_Hymn is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    It seems more likely that he was killed at the Order, or very close to it (hence the dumping of the body in the canal), but I doubt they'd call the meeting the moment he arrived. I'm sure he was left unsupervised long enough for Lulu to switch with him... and she probably was observing him in the past, too, so that she wouldn't be caught right away.
    You have a point there. I don't think the author will be going about telling us in explicit detail just how, when, and where he died, though, so I suppose this point may be moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    It's possible that he's keeping the Order alive because they don't present enough of a threat to the Earl; for example, if the Order were destroyed, they'd find a way to rebuild themselves even stronger than now. I'm more inclined to think that this is something bigger, though - maybe that the Earl and Order are even working together to achieve some end. Reinard had a theory that the akuma exist to consolidate two souls at once. The Earl wants to bring the "three days of darkness" (aka: the Apocalypse). So why couldn't the Order be working with the Earl to achieve this end? After all, the Exorcists supposedly 'won' thousands of years ago when the world was destroyed. If the akuma were allowed to run freely, some form of opposition would arise, possibly one that the Earl can't control (this works even if the Order is opposing the Earl; he could still have a hand in how it runs, albeit not openly).
    Once again you have a point, and now, there's a thought. Ugh....my brain hurts. I hope we get past these new "Komui's screwed things up again" chapters soon, because I'm terribly interested to find out more about all this. Chapter 158 is just seething with unanswered questions, no? I do so love mysterious plots like this.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    Komui does have access to meetings, if not more information. He did get promoted through the ranks fairly quickly, especially considering his age, and he *does* have power over everyone in the Order except for the Generals. Komui's attitude towards Exorcists could be a reason why the Order doesn't trust him with certain tasks or information. I don't think it's likely, especially considering Komui's general attitude towards everything (particularly people), but it would be a great role to have a spy in. As for why he couldn't exert more power in the Allen situation, Komui doesn't enjoy absolute power when the higher-ups are concerned. What he did fits with his character, but I doubt that a non-spy Komui would even have disagreed with what Rouvelier conceded. Allen may be a good guy and Komui knows that, but the evidence pointed (points, actually) to Allen having Noah connections, and it's hardly harming Allen to be supervised by Link or to not be allowed to speak to Cross. (I think the paperwork was a disguise; Link used it to get Allen away from Lavi/Miranda and ended up talking about the 14th with him.)

    Random note, though: Who's been responsible for destroying the Order two of the three times it's happened? =P
    It's important to make sure and keep in mind what his motivation is....and the first, most obvious thing is that he wants to protect Lenalee. Because, in the words of Kanda, he has a "sister complex".....

    You might be right about that. If he did turn out to be a spy, it really wouldn't lessen the comic relief, would it? He'd still being destroying the Order, even if he were doing it seriously.... 8D

    We could go on all day about reasons why particular people might or might not be spies. At one point, I thought maybe Bak might be a spy, but he's awfully isolated from headquarters way out there in Asia......most of the other branch heads are a little too far from Headquarters, really, to be spies.

    ......

    What was up with the random frog people at the meeting, anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    Yeah, that's the one thing I can't really explain away completely. It could be that he needed to do so to gain Allen's trust... and he did go against Rouvelier's orders, after all. At the time, it probably didn't seem likely that Allen and the Generals (well, the Generals weren't even THERE) would destroy the Egg. Actually, if the Generals & Miranda hadn't shown up, the Noah would not only have had the Egg but Allen too... and the Order would have lost two Exorcists. He delivered Allen straight into Lulu's hands. Of course, it didn't work out as she expected it to, but it could have been a risk Link took if he were a spy. (Alternatively, not doing so could have revealed his disguise to intelligent witnesses like Lavi. It's obviously in the Earl's best interests to keep a spy there.)

    Anyway, destroying the Egg was probably better for the Earl than letting the Order keep it to perform research on it.
    Consistent with the theory that he's a spy and that Lulubell attempted to capture Allen alive is that Link, after that, rescues Allen from the Level 4. However, Lulubell seemed to only do that as an afterthought, really.....not with any before-hand planning or the such. Plus, this is inconsistent with the Earl's previous plans, as before he wanted the Musician dead--which is why, as stated, he had Tykki killing everyone connected to the 14th. The Earl also states in 158 that he wonders why he didn't kill Allen the night when he brought back Mana, which implies that he wishes that he had. I'm assuming that this inconsistency--from "kill" to "capture alive"--is either because it was Lulubell's own idea, or because the Earl was originally doing this to make sure the download of the new ark was not interfered with, and therefore, since that plan failed, the plans have been changed.

    Then again, not having the egg is probably better for the Order in terms of people not getting killed by further attacks.....

    Link really does irk me.

    I mean, come on....it took Allen, Kanda, and Lavi together to hold off an attack by the Level 4, yet Link the man-chick can suddenly appear out of nowhere, in his pointy elf boots, bowl-cut, and limited edition wolverine claw pencil sharpeners he got out of a cereal box, and cut through the Level 4's attack with little to no difficulty?

    A lot of things about that particular arc irked me, I suppose.......

    Speaking of which, if I were Hoshino, I'd make sure and follow up on the whole "parasitic types decrease their user's lifespan" thing. It would be bad form not to......the first thing I thought when I read that was that Allen would probably die at the end of the series. His Innocence is a parasitic type, and it's obvious he's going to be using it a lot more heavily than most of the others....however, noting in this chapter that the author seems to have an emotional attachment to the characters, or at least doesn't like killing them off, it's highly unlikely that this will happen. At most, some random parasitic user will be introduced who's eighty years old and drops dead after one chapter....kind of like how we randomly become acquainted with Suman, and then we're supposed to feel sad that he's dead a brief few chapters later. It is sad about his daughter, in a sense, but in another.....

    The only thing that really made me feel sad about Suman's death was that Allen went to all that darned trouble and nearly killed himself for nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    Cross is still human and vulnerable; for all we know, they could shoot him in the head from afar without him even being able to do something about it. After all, if he accuses them of doing such a thing, he could be tried for heresy himself (and there goes Allen, for associating with Cross). Cross's actions seem to support the Order, though; he did try to fulfill his orders to destroy the Egg, and he trained Allen to be an Exorcist. I think this is important to the secret of the 14th, though; I've always suspected that the 14th may not quite have been trying to betray the Earl. If Cross was involved with the 14th AND is suspicious of the Order himself (which we might see in a Cross POV in future chapters, or even if something happens to him while at the meeting), that'd prove that. On the other hand, if Cross returns safe and sound and gets to talk to Allen - and does so - he's almost certainly involved in whatever the Order is doing, and supports it. Cross isn't really a nice guy, after all. I wouldn't put it past him to manipulate Allen like that to achieve some other ends... he already has.
    It'd be nice to see a little of that bad side of Cross that we've only heard Allen talk about ("He is a REAL AKUMA!!! D<"). It does seem to be implied that Cross is suspicious of the Order, as he didn't communicate with them for three years, and the comment "I wasn't sure where the long arms of the Earl could be reaching" seems to perhaps apply to more than just the Earl tapping the phone lines Cross is reporting through. And for goodness sake, I'd like to get on with the plot so that we can know a little bit more about this, and so that we can make absolutely sure (so we don't have to simply assume anymore) that Mana was the 14th. As things stand now, it's possible Mana wasn't the fourteenth, though it's heavily implied. I'm hoping we get to be in on the conversation between Rouvellier and Cross when he's explaining the information about the 14th like he stated he would. Of course, there's the equally likely chance that Cross will simply sneak off on the way there and disappear again, or some such nonsense like that. There's no way I expect this "meeting" to go entirely as either Cross or Rouvellier planned.

    Personally, I'd also like to know more about Timcanpy, and why--when Cross supposedly created him--the reflection in the glass calls it "my Timcanpy." On a side note, the face that reflection makes all the time looks a whole lot like the face Road makes when her doll self is inside Lavi's head.

    I used to think that that shadow in the mirror was Mana's ghost or some such thing (and I based that assumption upon what went on waaaaay back in Crowley's castle, whenever Allen's left eye returned ), but now I'm beginning to highly doubt that.

    Hrrm........

    Need new chapters with plot points.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paper_Thin_Hymn View Post
    You have a point there. I don't think the author will be going about telling us in explicit detail just how, when, and where he died, though, so I suppose this point may be moot.
    It probably doesn't matter anyway. We already know that Lulu replaced him at some point and managed to get that information, so unless it's mentioned casually, like if Lulu remembers the time she impersonated him back at the home branch...

    Once again you have a point, and now, there's a thought. Ugh....my brain hurts. I hope we get past these new "Komui's screwed things up again" chapters soon, because I'm terribly interested to find out more about all this. Chapter 158 is just seething with unanswered questions, no? I do so love mysterious plots like this.....
    That's probably the biggest problem with these chapters. It's not just that they're goofy, it's that they came at a time when all we want is to have some important questions answered. We haven't been left with any really new information since before Lulu tried to get the Egg back, and this was supposed to be the time - Cross being allowed to talk to Allen. Then he leaves. We don't even see ANYTHING related to it except Komui trying to get the song out of Allen.

    It's important to make sure and keep in mind what his motivation is....and the first, most obvious thing is that he wants to protect Lenalee. Because, in the words of Kanda, he has a "sister complex".....
    Which actually supports the idea of Komui being a potential spy. The Order would never hurt Lenalee even if he was caught and executed, since she's a valuable Exorcist, but who will protect her from the Noah? Komui was almost willing to let the level 4 destroy the Order (and let Hevlaska die!) to protect Lenalee.

    You might be right about that. If he did turn out to be a spy, it really wouldn't lessen the comic relief, would it? He'd still being destroying the Order, even if he were doing it seriously.... 8D
    XD I don't think these were intentional, although those Komrin seem designed to do lots of damage... I bet it was just an overreaction, though.

    We could go on all day about reasons why particular people might or might not be spies. At one point, I thought maybe Bak might be a spy, but he's awfully isolated from headquarters way out there in Asia......most of the other branch heads are a little too far from Headquarters, really, to be spies.
    It could be, though. (Did he do it for pictures of Lenalee? =P) They would be isolated from the Order itself, but what goes on in the other branches is probably important enough for the Earl to have spies there. I'm not sure about Bak, though - he seems honest, and he *did* get caught up in the Egg incident as well as the level 3 attack. If Komui turns out to be a spy, Bak would probably be the next choice to replace him, and I'm not sure Hoshino would write both characters in as spies.

    ......

    What was up with the random frog people at the meeting, anyway?
    It was Bak. Dunno why he was shown like that.

    Consistent with the theory that he's a spy and that Lulubell attempted to capture Allen alive is that Link, after that, rescues Allen from the Level 4. However, Lulubell seemed to only do that as an afterthought, really.....not with any before-hand planning or the such. Plus, this is inconsistent with the Earl's previous plans, as before he wanted the Musician dead--which is why, as stated, he had Tykki killing everyone connected to the 14th. The Earl also states in 158 that he wonders why he didn't kill Allen the night when he brought back Mana, which implies that he wishes that he had. I'm assuming that this inconsistency--from "kill" to "capture alive"--is either because it was Lulubell's own idea, or because the Earl was originally doing this to make sure the download of the new ark was not interfered with, and therefore, since that plan failed, the plans have been changed.

    Then again, not having the egg is probably better for the Order in terms of people not getting killed by further attacks.....
    Lulubell could have taken advantage of the situation that wasn't previously planned, or she could not have known the exact outcome (like, maybe Link will get Allen in there, but maybe he won't). I agree that it was probably personal opportunity; Lulu WAS there when the Earl was crying over the human controller's apparent death. On the other hand, maybe it wasn't. The Earl could have wondered why he didn't kill Allen back then because it seems inconsistent with his behaviour - why wouldn't the Earl take the opportunity to get rid of a little boy that's going to be a pain in the butt in the future (because he's an Exorcist)? It's possible that Allen's capture of the Ark/Egg made him potentially useful to the Noah, too; even if he doesn't use the Ark for their sake (hey, why not have two Arks?), that'd get rid of the advantage the Order has with easy transportation... oh, and an Exorcist.

    And anyway, why not take the advantage of sneaking an Exorcist in when he has very little chance of beating the Noah inside? Whether Allen dies or gets captured, he's no longer a problem for the Noah to deal with.

    Link really does irk me.

    I mean, come on....it took Allen, Kanda, and Lavi together to hold off an attack by the Level 4, yet Link the man-chick can suddenly appear out of nowhere, in his pointy elf boots, bowl-cut, and limited edition wolverine claw pencil sharpeners he got out of a cereal box, and cut through the Level 4's attack with little to no difficulty?

    A lot of things about that particular arc irked me, I suppose.......
    Eh, it wasn't that powerful of an attack, since it apparently didn't kill anyone. Still wondering what's up with that weapon, though.

    Speaking of which, if I were Hoshino, I'd make sure and follow up on the whole "parasitic types decrease their user's lifespan" thing. It would be bad form not to......the first thing I thought when I read that was that Allen would probably die at the end of the series. His Innocence is a parasitic type, and it's obvious he's going to be using it a lot more heavily than most of the others....however, noting in this chapter that the author seems to have an emotional attachment to the characters, or at least doesn't like killing them off, it's highly unlikely that this will happen. At most, some random parasitic user will be introduced who's eighty years old and drops dead after one chapter....kind of like how we randomly become acquainted with Suman, and then we're supposed to feel sad that he's dead a brief few chapters later. It is sad about his daughter, in a sense, but in another.....

    The only thing that really made me feel sad about Suman's death was that Allen went to all that darned trouble and nearly killed himself for nothing.
    I don't think it would really be realistic to kill Allen off at the end of the series. Unless the parasitic Innocence saps life just by existing (but why would it, if it hasn't ever been activated?), Allen's only been using it for three years. If that's enough to cut eighty-plus years off his life, that's a bit... overpowered, I guess. Sure, he's been using it a lot, but hasn't any Exorcist? Unless Cloud is a newly appointed General, she must've been using the monkey for a longer period of time, and monkeys aren't known for having a long life span (plus she's older). They're also hardly the first parasitic-types we've seen. I think that if a parasitic-type was so toxic to the user's health that the Exorcist could only be used for a couple of years before dropping dead randomly, the scientists would be trying to find a way to convert it into something else... parasitic-types don't seem to be particularly stronger or more effective than equipment-types (well, a little, but when it comes to fighting level 1s, they seem equally matched), and it'd be a terrible waste of Exorcists. Why should the Generals spend years training a new Exorcist when they're going to have to find a new one soon anyway?

    I think it'll be more of an issue for Allen's personal thoughts... maybe he doesn't know, and he'll have to make a decision later. Or maybe it'll be a relationship issue, where Lenalee ends up worrying about it (once/if she becomes romantically involved with Allen). At the very least, I think it'll be more like Chrno Crusade, where Rosette still had a number of years left before she passed away after the series ended.

    It'd be nice to see a little of that bad side of Cross that we've only heard Allen talk about ("He is a REAL AKUMA!!! D<"). It does seem to be implied that Cross is suspicious of the Order, as he didn't communicate with them for three years, and the comment "I wasn't sure where the long arms of the Earl could be reaching" seems to perhaps apply to more than just the Earl tapping the phone lines Cross is reporting through. And for goodness sake, I'd like to get on with the plot so that we can know a little bit more about this, and so that we can make absolutely sure (so we don't have to simply assume anymore) that Mana was the 14th. As things stand now, it's possible Mana wasn't the fourteenth, though it's heavily implied. I'm hoping we get to be in on the conversation between Rouvellier and Cross when he's explaining the information about the 14th like he stated he would. Of course, there's the equally likely chance that Cross will simply sneak off on the way there and disappear again, or some such nonsense like that. There's no way I expect this "meeting" to go entirely as either Cross or Rouvellier planned.
    If Mana isn't the 14th, that's either some shitty writing or the editor interfered. There's no evidence pointing to some random guy having those powers; by contrast, it makes no sense NOT to be Mana. I'd really like to learn about Cross's interaction with him, though; was Mana suspicious of the Earl (as everyone thinks), Cross suspicious of the Order (which no one suspects), or were they each fighting for a different side and Cross was damn good at manipulating Mana? It could be that, as you say, Cross was suspicious of spies within the Order... or maybe Cross was too busy sticking Order propaganda in Allen's head to risk the job to someone else... or... I wonder if we'll just see Cross and Rouvelier return with big smiles saying "everything's okay!", and Cross ends up saying how boring it was, but I'd really like something to happen, too. It'd definitely make things interesting, even if it means poor Allen has to go through even more agony not being able to ask Cross about events.

    Personally, I'd also like to know more about Timcanpy, and why--when Cross supposedly created him--the reflection in the glass calls it "my Timcanpy." On a side note, the face that reflection makes all the time looks a whole lot like the face Road makes when her doll self is inside Lavi's head.
    It's a Noah thing, that's for sure. The basic shape (not the eyes/mouth) is a bit like the thing from Boric's mirror in his flashback.

    I used to think that that shadow in the mirror was Mana's ghost or some such thing (and I based that assumption upon what went on waaaaay back in Crowley's castle, whenever Allen's left eye returned ), but now I'm beginning to highly doubt that.
    I'm worried about that. Hoshino seems to have changed her mind about the shadow... it used to be Allen's reflection itself, but now it just appears behind him, like it *is* Mana's shadow. (On the other hand, maybe it took that form to make life easier for Allen. It'd really suck not being able to see yourself in the mirror every day to brush your teeth or comb your hair or whatever.)
    ~Digital_Eon~




  8. #8
    Paper_Thin_Hymn is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    That's probably the biggest problem with these chapters. It's not just that they're goofy, it's that they came at a time when all we want is to have some important questions answered. We haven't been left with any really new information since before Lulu tried to get the Egg back, and this was supposed to be the time - Cross being allowed to talk to Allen. Then he leaves. We don't even see ANYTHING related to it except Komui trying to get the song out of Allen.
    Absolutely torturous, is it not? While it's obvious the Earl wouldn't have just let them have the egg, it would've been nice if we didn't have to go through all of these random arcs just to get a little more information.....or if, at least, some of this information was put forth during these arcs, so as not to leave us hanging completely.

    *twitch* Must....know....plot....points......

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    Which actually supports the idea of Komui being a potential spy. The Order would never hurt Lenalee even if he was caught and executed, since she's a valuable Exorcist, but who will protect her from the Noah? Komui was almost willing to let the level 4 destroy the Order (and let Hevlaska die!) to protect Lenalee.
    Indeed. And furthermore, besides the fact that he wanted to protect Lenalee and therefore wouldn't allow her to fight because of that, there's also the fact that if she hadn't gone out to fight, the Order would have been destroyed (even though all she really did was drag Allen to safety once, show off the uber-speed of her new boots, then jump up and down on his sword when he stabbed the Level 4....and then it was still alive, and for some reason, Cross, Cloud, and Sokaro had to appear to get rid of it). Barring, of course, the fact that Rouvellier was a complete jerk for making her do that anyway, but it did succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    Eh, it wasn't that powerful of an attack, since it apparently didn't kill anyone. Still wondering what's up with that weapon, though.
    True. But still, to cut through with little razor blades on his fingers....I don't know why he doesn't carry around something more useful, like an actual gun or something--like people like him are more liable to be carrying than razor blades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    I don't think it would really be realistic to kill Allen off at the end of the series. Unless the parasitic Innocence saps life just by existing (but why would it, if it hasn't ever been activated?), Allen's only been using it for three years. If that's enough to cut eighty-plus years off his life, that's a bit... overpowered, I guess. Sure, he's been using it a lot, but hasn't any Exorcist? Unless Cloud is a newly appointed General, she must've been using the monkey for a longer period of time, and monkeys aren't known for having a long life span (plus she's older). They're also hardly the first parasitic-types we've seen. I think that if a parasitic-type was so toxic to the user's health that the Exorcist could only be used for a couple of years before dropping dead randomly, the scientists would be trying to find a way to convert it into something else... parasitic-types don't seem to be particularly stronger or more effective than equipment-types (well, a little, but when it comes to fighting level 1s, they seem equally matched), and it'd be a terrible waste of Exorcists. Why should the Generals spend years training a new Exorcist when they're going to have to find a new one soon anyway?

    I think it'll be more of an issue for Allen's personal thoughts... maybe he doesn't know, and he'll have to make a decision later. Or maybe it'll be a relationship issue, where Lenalee ends up worrying about it (once/if she becomes romantically involved with Allen). At the very least, I think it'll be more like Chrno Crusade, where Rosette still had a number of years left before she passed away after the series ended.
    Yes, but as has been stated in previous chapters, Allen uses his an awful lot, and it seems as though his is just going to keep getting more powerful, to the point where he can defeat the Earl (because that seems the predictable outcome). I certainly hope he's not dead at the end of the series, but that little revelation about parasitic types still needs some follow-ups.

    Actually, the first thing I thought of was the Runelords[/hatesbutreadanywayoutofboredom], when whatshisface got all pumped up on forcibles to go fight the something-or-the-others, thus speeding up his metabolism enormously, thus reducing his remaining lifetime to about two years.....[/don'teverreadisboring]

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    If Mana isn't the 14th, that's either some shitty writing or the editor interfered. There's no evidence pointing to some random guy having those powers; by contrast, it makes no sense NOT to be Mana. I'd really like to learn about Cross's interaction with him, though; was Mana suspicious of the Earl (as everyone thinks), Cross suspicious of the Order (which no one suspects), or were they each fighting for a different side and Cross was damn good at manipulating Mana? It could be that, as you say, Cross was suspicious of spies within the Order... or maybe Cross was too busy sticking Order propaganda in Allen's head to risk the job to someone else... or... I wonder if we'll just see Cross and Rouvelier return with big smiles saying "everything's okay!", and Cross ends up saying how boring it was, but I'd really like something to happen, too. It'd definitely make things interesting, even if it means poor Allen has to go through even more agony not being able to ask Cross about events.
    Aye. If the fourteenth suddenly, randomly turned out not to be Mana, I swear I'd stop reading it right then, run out on the deck, and let out a scream of pure rage. It's not possible to hint at something that much and then change it all of a sudden. And indeed, the whole situation between Cross and Mana is still in the dark....it seems like Allen had never met Cross before the night he took him as his apprentice, so that may imply that either Cross was communicating with Mana in secret, or that he just wasn't communicating with him at all during that particular time period. But as pointed out by Rouvellier and hinted at by the whole Timcanpy thing, there was a significant interaction between the two characters at some point in time. It may have been that neither was fighting for the Order or the Earl, and instead were fighting as their own, third faction--after all, Cross always seems to have his own agenda separate from the Order, and someone (Road, I believe) said in chapter 158 that the fourteenth tried to kill the Earl. That's a little bit broad, though, as it lays out the fact that he hated the Noah and tried to kill the Earl, but doesn't give any reasons why....hopefully we'll get more elaboration on these points in chapters to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    I'm worried about that. Hoshino seems to have changed her mind about the shadow... it used to be Allen's reflection itself, but now it just appears behind him, like it *is* Mana's shadow. (On the other hand, maybe it took that form to make life easier for Allen. It'd really suck not being able to see yourself in the mirror every day to brush your teeth or comb your hair or whatever.)
    Well, if I got up every morning and saw something else in my mirror besides me, I think I wouldn't be too happy about it either. But that may be on purpose, that it's gone from being his reflection to being a shadow hanging over his shoulder; as you said, it's quite obviously a Noah thing, and a lot of people seem to think that it's similar to the "inner Noah" that the actual Noah have. However, it's obvious that it's not quite the same as an actual inner Noah, as for one thing, I really don't think Allen's Innocence would be too pleased about that, and for another, it doesn't seem likely that he's inherited the genes of Noah. I think it has something more to do with Mana's passing his powers on to Allen--and with those powers came the whole "Inner Noah" thing, I'd think. Obviously, the reason we've never seen it until now was probably because until he entered the piano room, it was lying dormant. And my theory on why it was his actual reflection in the piano room and it's only a shadow over his shoulder elsewhere is perhaps because he's more synchronized with it in the actual piano room? Since that is the fourteenth's room, and if the shadow represents an Inner Noah and/or the powers Mana passed onto him, then it's not technically originally Allen's, and therefore is slightly different than him being an actual Noah.

    It's like if two people had a brand new pink jacket from a "pink jacket club" they were in, and after a while one of them outgrew theirs, and gave it to you. It's not originally your jacket, you don't look like the original owner of the jacket, and you do not become that person by wearing their jacket; it can now technically be considered your jacket, and you have your own identity with it, but it also has a previous identity with someone else. By wearing the jacket, you are not a member of the pink jacket club, but others might automatically assume you were.

    .....

    I think I've confused myself now. =/

    Edit: actually, I came up with something better and simpler (I hope). It could be compared to having someone else's shadow. You're still you, and the shadow is still cast by you, but it's a different shape than you are.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paper_Thin_Hymn View Post
    Absolutely torturous, is it not? While it's obvious the Earl wouldn't have just let them have the egg, it would've been nice if we didn't have to go through all of these random arcs just to get a little more information.....or if, at least, some of this information was put forth during these arcs, so as not to leave us hanging completely.
    Agreed. While the Lulubell stuff did advance the plot a little (the Noah know Allen has that power, Egg stuff, etc.), nothing of that nature was really revealed in the level 4 attack, and unfortunately that just led to the prolonging of the scene that we all really want to read. And, of course, this current arc is worth nothing to the advancement of plot (as far as we know).

    Indeed. And furthermore, besides the fact that he wanted to protect Lenalee and therefore wouldn't allow her to fight because of that, there's also the fact that if she hadn't gone out to fight, the Order would have been destroyed (even though all she really did was drag Allen to safety once, show off the uber-speed of her new boots, then jump up and down on his sword when he stabbed the Level 4....and then it was still alive, and for some reason, Cross, Cloud, and Sokaro had to appear to get rid of it). Barring, of course, the fact that Rouvellier was a complete jerk for making her do that anyway, but it did succeed.
    Well... she did kind of kick butt there. ^_^ The Cross scene was pretty lame, since there's no reason it shouldn't have been defeated by Allen and Lenalee's attack. I can see why Komui would want to do anything to protect Lenalee, but I guess I would've thought that he'd use more logic than that... it was worth a shot, after all, and it ended up working, and Lenalee wasn't really injured at all. For someone who *has* dedicated his life to the Order, he doesn't seem to care about it as much as he probably should... and whether that's because he's only there for Lenalee or because of another reason, who knows.

    True. But still, to cut through with little razor blades on his fingers....I don't know why he doesn't carry around something more useful, like an actual gun or something--like people like him are more liable to be carrying than razor blades.
    I guess it's like a Swiss Army Knife or something; maybe he uses it to cut those cakes when he sneaks them out for a midnight snack.

    [quote]
    Yes, but as has been stated in previous chapters, Allen uses his an awful lot, and it seems as though his is just going to keep getting more powerful, to the point where he can defeat the Earl (because that seems the predictable outcome). I certainly hope he's not dead at the end of the series, but that little revelation about parasitic types still needs some follow-ups.[/don'teverreadisboring]

    I don't want Allen to die at the end of the series either, but I think if he does, it'd be because of some self-sacrifice/injury sustained in the battle with the Earl. For him to survive that completely only to die because he used his Innocence too much... meh. And even if Allen does keep on using it a lot, it was a perfectly normal parasitic-type for three years. It's been like this for all of a few weeks (days? Probably not more than two or three weeks, unless Allen had a birthday that we're unaware of), and even then, we haven't seen any indication *yet* that it's anything more than your average General-invocation Innocence. It probably will power up even more, but barring a huge timeskip first, will he really use those often enough to make it matter?

    Aye. If the fourteenth suddenly, randomly turned out not to be Mana, I swear I'd stop reading it right then, run out on the deck, and let out a scream of pure rage. It's not possible to hint at something that much and then change it all of a sudden. And indeed, the whole situation between Cross and Mana is still in the dark....it seems like Allen had never met Cross before the night he took him as his apprentice, so that may imply that either Cross was communicating with Mana in secret, or that he just wasn't communicating with him at all during that particular time period. But as pointed out by Rouvellier and hinted at by the whole Timcanpy thing, there was a significant interaction between the two characters at some point in time. It may have been that neither was fighting for the Order or the Earl, and instead were fighting as their own, third faction--after all, Cross always seems to have his own agenda separate from the Order, and someone (Road, I believe) said in chapter 158 that the fourteenth tried to kill the Earl. That's a little bit broad, though, as it lays out the fact that he hated the Noah and tried to kill the Earl, but doesn't give any reasons why....hopefully we'll get more elaboration on these points in chapters to come.
    But everything since the beginning has pointed to Mana being more than just a clown who took Allen in, and there's really no way to make him something special without making him the 14th, too. What, like he's some minion who picked up Allen for a devious reason but was still nothing more than a clown? -_-;; Nah...

    What would a third faction be fighting for, though? For the destruction of both sides, like in Claymore? I can see that working if the Order and Earl are working together, but if they're not, wouldn't it make more sense to destroy... say, the Earl, so that the Order can go back to being some kind of research group of the Vatican? A part of me still thinks that the pair was less organized than we suspect (ie: the 14th didn't really plot to assassinate the Earl, but maybe got angry and lashed out spontaneously), but... well, it'd be REALLY nice to know what happened back then. The 14th's 'betrayal' seems too convenient, though, and Cross has always seemed a little too suspicious.

    Well, if I got up every morning and saw something else in my mirror besides me, I think I wouldn't be too happy about it either. But that may be on purpose, that it's gone from being his reflection to being a shadow hanging over his shoulder; as you said, it's quite obviously a Noah thing, and a lot of people seem to think that it's similar to the "inner Noah" that the actual Noah have. However, it's obvious that it's not quite the same as an actual inner Noah, as for one thing, I really don't think Allen's Innocence would be too pleased about that, and for another, it doesn't seem likely that he's inherited the genes of Noah. I think it has something more to do with Mana's passing his powers on to Allen--and with those powers came the whole "Inner Noah" thing, I'd think. Obviously, the reason we've never seen it until now was probably because until he entered the piano room, it was lying dormant. And my theory on why it was his actual reflection in the piano room and it's only a shadow over his shoulder elsewhere is perhaps because he's more synchronized with it in the actual piano room? Since that is the fourteenth's room, and if the shadow represents an Inner Noah and/or the powers Mana passed onto him, then it's not technically originally Allen's, and therefore is slightly different than him being an actual Noah.
    About the genes: Every silhouette we've seen of the 14th looks way too much like Allen to be coincidental (I think). There *could* be a genetic link to the 14th after all... and it'd certainly explain why we've never seen Mana's face (even if he is the 14th, the only other reason I can think of is that Hoshino hid it to make us think something was up with Mana and nothing else). If he's the child of the 14th, why couldn't he have inherited Noah genes? We really don't know, after all, if Noah powers CAN be passed on to a random human without something to be there first... and maybe the Earl doesn't, either, since this could be the first time it's actually happened in the history of the Noah clan.

    Of course, that doesn't explain the mirror thing. It does seem more likely that it isn't really his shadow - it's Mana, or Mana's shadow, or some other thing that isn't Allen but is attached to him - although I still hope that it changed to that shape for convenience. (And if at least one of the Noah wasn't vain enough to need a mirror every morning...)

    Edit: actually, I came up with something better and simpler (I hope). It could be compared to having someone else's shadow. You're still you, and the shadow is still cast by you, but it's a different shape than you are.
    I would laugh so hard if that were the case, and Mana did end up looking like Allen, so there's some kind of coincidental similarity in appearance.

    (Sorry if I didn't make as much sense here; I just kinda... woke up... and it's so good to start a day with a nice conversation about DGM that requires thought~)
    ~Digital_Eon~




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    Paper_Thin_Hymn is offline Junior Member Newbie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    Agreed. While the Lulubell stuff did advance the plot a little (the Noah know Allen has that power, Egg stuff, etc.), nothing of that nature was really revealed in the level 4 attack, and unfortunately that just led to the prolonging of the scene that we all really want to read. And, of course, this current arc is worth nothing to the advancement of plot (as far as we know).
    Lulubell's attack I didn't mind at all, because as you said, it brought about extra plot points. These points were probably going to have to be brought about sometime (for example, it would be silly for the Earl NOT to do anything about the Order having the egg), but surely we could have done without the level 4...sure, it did give greater impact to the Earl's comment about the "true meaning of the Akuma's evolution" later, and it did serve to get Lenalee her boots, AND so she doesn't look entirely like a terminally ill hospital patient (those stupid little gowns that keep appearing.....put her back in uniform, at least, if she's going to be bald), but it could have easily been done some other way that wasn't quite so....long and drawn out and pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    I don't want Allen to die at the end of the series either, but I think if he does, it'd be because of some self-sacrifice/injury sustained in the battle with the Earl. For him to survive that completely only to die because he used his Innocence too much... meh. And even if Allen does keep on using it a lot, it was a perfectly normal parasitic-type for three years. It's been like this for all of a few weeks (days? Probably not more than two or three weeks, unless Allen had a birthday that we're unaware of), and even then, we haven't seen any indication *yet* that it's anything more than your average General-invocation Innocence. It probably will power up even more, but barring a huge timeskip first, will he really use those often enough to make it matter?
    It also may be that Allen's Innocence will turn into something more than simply a parasitic type, and somehow in the process we can forget worrying about that. After all, it's saved his life once; more than likely, it probably wouldn't want him dead. Of course, after defeating the Earl, would there be any more Akuma? So would the Innocence care anymore? ....... O_o;

    That's another thing I like about this series. It's completely unpredictable, as opposed to other mangas I've read/animes I've watched/books I've slogged through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    But everything since the beginning has pointed to Mana being more than just a clown who took Allen in, and there's really no way to make him something special without making him the 14th, too. What, like he's some minion who picked up Allen for a devious reason but was still nothing more than a clown? -_-;; Nah...

    What would a third faction be fighting for, though? For the destruction of both sides, like in Claymore? I can see that working if the Order and Earl are working together, but if they're not, wouldn't it make more sense to destroy... say, the Earl, so that the Order can go back to being some kind of research group of the Vatican? A part of me still thinks that the pair was less organized than we suspect (ie: the 14th didn't really plot to assassinate the Earl, but maybe got angry and lashed out spontaneously), but... well, it'd be REALLY nice to know what happened back then. The 14th's 'betrayal' seems too convenient, though, and Cross has always seemed a little too suspicious.
    The idea of the 14th getting angry and lashing out would be consistent with the statement that he hates the Noah....if they were doing something that didn't agree with him, and he got angry enough while in a heated debate with the Earl trying to get him to stop, it could happen. Although it is to note that somebody I can't remember stated that there were originally thirteen Noah, but for some reason, the fourteenth was unexpectedly born....I think. Must go and look that up.

    Heck, the first time I saw Cross, the first thing that jumped into my mind (just from looking at his picture) was that he was evil in some way.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    About the genes: Every silhouette we've seen of the 14th looks way too much like Allen to be coincidental (I think). There *could* be a genetic link to the 14th after all... and it'd certainly explain why we've never seen Mana's face (even if he is the 14th, the only other reason I can think of is that Hoshino hid it to make us think something was up with Mana and nothing else). If he's the child of the 14th, why couldn't he have inherited Noah genes? We really don't know, after all, if Noah powers CAN be passed on to a random human without something to be there first... and maybe the Earl doesn't, either, since this could be the first time it's actually happened in the history of the Noah clan.

    Of course, that doesn't explain the mirror thing. It does seem more likely that it isn't really his shadow - it's Mana, or Mana's shadow, or some other thing that isn't Allen but is attached to him - although I still hope that it changed to that shape for convenience. (And if at least one of the Noah wasn't vain enough to need a mirror every morning...)
    Well, we've never heard anything about Allen's actual parents that he supposedly had, so it's not unfathomable--mayhaps the story about how he was thrown out because of his "disfigured" arm and taken in by Mana isn't true at all, and Hoshino's providing us with purposeful disinformation in order to lead us astray and make us think that Allen was adopted by Mana, when Mana was actually his biological father. It's not uncommon; I've read plenty of books where the author has done such a thing....and it's important to note that the silhouettes of the fourteenth we've seen didn't look like Allen himself, so much as they looked like Allen with the Crown Clown activated. Which, of course, could lead one to believe that there may be a connection between the fourteenth and Allen's Innocence....after all, it seems to me as though Allen probably doesn't have the heart (and in my opinion, not Lenalee either)....Lavi's "Is there another meaning behind these two exceptions?" strikes me as a doubly-impacting line, both showing Lavi's inner thoughts, and delivering a message from the author to the reader. Eh, and Mana was a clown....Allen's a "clown" in one sense, with the Crown Clown......

    It might be possible to find a clue in the chapter title of "Shadow of the Musician," and the title page of chapter 134, which shows Allen and the Shadow back to back. The Shadow is taller than Allen, though they're both wearing a little ribbon necktie thing...(wow, random.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Eon
    I would laugh so hard if that were the case, and Mana did end up looking like Allen, so there's some kind of coincidental similarity in appearance.

    (Sorry if I didn't make as much sense here; I just kinda... woke up... and it's so good to start a day with a nice conversation about DGM that requires thought~)
    Heck, I stayed up really late last night. In fact, I don't believe I've gone to bed before midnight since school let out.

    I can understand that. D. Gray-Man's kind of consuming my entire thought process at the current time (I get depressed talking about anything else, or doing anything else besides reading the Manga/watching the Anime.... 8D ). I got bored waiting at the DMV yesterday to get my Learner's Permit, so I sat and drew random things for the two hours I waited...first I drew Timcanpy (because he's cool), then I got hungry so I drew Allen (because he's ALWAYS hungry), then I drew the chicken with Cross's hat (because I would have loved to have a chicken biscuit right then), then Lero (because there was this old lady with an umbrella next to me), etc.....

    And I do so love discussion.

 

 
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