Thread: After a Careful Analysis....// Spoilers Possible, By the way.

Originally Posted by Paper_Thin_Hymn

Lulubell's attack I didn't mind at all, because as you said, it brought about extra plot points. These points were probably going to have to be brought about sometime (for example, it would be silly for the Earl NOT to do anything about the Order having the egg), but surely we could have done without the level 4...sure, it did give greater impact to the Earl's comment about the "true meaning of the Akuma's evolution" later, and it did serve to get Lenalee her boots, AND so she doesn't look entirely like a terminally ill hospital patient (those stupid little gowns that keep appearing.....put her back in uniform, at least, if she's going to be bald), but it could have easily been done some other way that wasn't quite so....long and drawn out and pointless.

Exactly. The level 4 did give Lenalee the opportunity for a power-up, but I really think it would have been better for Lenalee to kick butt on her own. Aside from that, it destroyed the Order and made everyone move, giving rise to this arc... uh, yay? Couldn't it just have escaped sooner rather than later, so we didn't have to deal with the questions of why Johnny is immortal?

(Hospital gowns? She only wore one like that once, didn't she? The thing she was wearing in the level 4 fight was just really skimpy shorts again, and now she's got dresses of all kinds. What everyone needs is the return to the uniform - or at least give Allen back his ribbon.)

It also may be that Allen's Innocence will turn into something more than simply a parasitic type, and somehow in the process we can forget worrying about that. After all, it's saved his life once; more than likely, it probably wouldn't want him dead. Of course, after defeating the Earl, would there be any more Akuma? So would the Innocence care anymore? ....... O_o;

Maybe... Now that we've seen the 'crystal-type', anything is possible. >_> I was really looking forward to see Lenalee getting a parasitic-type, though! Maybe the Innocence will disappear/become dormant after the Earl is defeated, yeah; it'd be a happy ending for everyone who now do not have to deal with dragging a weapon around everywhere they go. It won't have any future negative effects on the Exorcists, either, which is why I hope for that kind of ending: if Allen doesn't die, he should have a number of years left ahead of him unless he gets hit by a carriage or contracts cancer or something. (Fun ending, huh?)

The idea of the 14th getting angry and lashing out would be consistent with the statement that he hates the Noah....if they were doing something that didn't agree with him, and he got angry enough while in a heated debate with the Earl trying to get him to stop, it could happen. Although it is to note that somebody I can't remember stated that there were originally thirteen Noah, but for some reason, the fourteenth was unexpectedly born....I think. Must go and look that up.

Heck, the first time I saw Cross, the first thing that jumped into my mind (just from looking at his picture) was that he was evil in some way.....

Yup, there were originally thirteen. Wonder why there *was* a 14th, then? That seems a little more important than just being a random event. I do question his apparent dislike of Noah; he did put up with them for a long time, apparently, and rather than having nothing to do with them, taught Allen how to use the Ark himself. Unless he had an incredible amount of foresight and predicted that Allen would do whatever he ended up doing, it just seems... weird. Cross's role also seems to have been to tell Allen about the Ark at some later time and teach him about it (since who else would do such a thing? - and that'd explain why Timcanpy was with Cross, and ended up being sent with Allen everywhere).

Well, we've never heard anything about Allen's actual parents that he supposedly had, so it's not unfathomable--mayhaps the story about how he was thrown out because of his "disfigured" arm and taken in by Mana isn't true at all, and Hoshino's providing us with purposeful disinformation in order to lead us astray and make us think that Allen was adopted by Mana, when Mana was actually his biological father. It's not uncommon; I've read plenty of books where the author has done such a thing....and it's important to note that the silhouettes of the fourteenth we've seen didn't look like Allen himself, so much as they looked like Allen with the Crown Clown activated. Which, of course, could lead one to believe that there may be a connection between the fourteenth and Allen's Innocence....after all, it seems to me as though Allen probably doesn't have the heart (and in my opinion, not Lenalee either)....Lavi's "Is there another meaning behind these two exceptions?" strikes me as a doubly-impacting line, both showing Lavi's inner thoughts, and delivering a message from the author to the reader. Eh, and Mana was a clown....Allen's a "clown" in one sense, with the Crown Clown......

It might be possible to find a clue in the chapter title of "Shadow of the Musician," and the title page of chapter 134, which shows Allen and the Shadow back to back. The Shadow is taller than Allen, though they're both wearing a little ribbon necktie thing...(wow, random.)

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here (except for Allen and Lenalee both not having the Heart; I still think it's one or both of them, mostly since there's been no evidence so far pointing to anyone else). Certainly, if Allen's Innocence were connected to the Noah shadow, it would be a good explanation for why the Innocence hasn't had a negative reaction to any Noah powers (and possibly Noah genes, if you're a fan of the Allen-will-become-a-Noah theory). This isn't even the only connection between Innocence and Noah; the Earl is also somewhat of a clown (he compared himself to the Auguste in chapter 89), and Allen's sword strongly resembles the transformed Lero-sword. Could that also hint at a possible connection between the Order and Noah?

(Maybe the shadow's taller than Allen because... Allen isn't? =P It's been hinted in an inside cover that Allen hasn't stopped growing yet - although Hoshino hasn't depicted that in the artwork - so maybe that's how tall he'll be when... er... Mana always seemed taller in flashbacks, so either he was, or Allen just grew a LOT in three years.)

I can understand that. D. Gray-Man's kind of consuming my entire thought process at the current time (I get depressed talking about anything else, or doing anything else besides reading the Manga/watching the Anime.... 8D ). I got bored waiting at the DMV yesterday to get my Learner's Permit, so I sat and drew random things for the two hours I waited...first I drew Timcanpy (because he's cool), then I got hungry so I drew Allen (because he's ALWAYS hungry), then I drew the chicken with Cross's hat (because I would have loved to have a chicken biscuit right then), then Lero (because there was this old lady with an umbrella next to me), etc.....

That sounds really amusing! Care to scan them somehow? :3 It's amazing how one can connect DGM to things in life if it's on one's mind - I'm always looking around at store signs or reading books and thinking 'this reminds me of character X' or 'hey, that store's initials are DGM!' or various things like that. It's just that kind of series, maybe... although it does get awkward when a conversation with a friend inevitably turns to the series because of the tiniest connection... like a clown puppet during babysitting.

I would be seriously suprised if they didn't have more than one spy in black order - that would mean Earl is doing really shitty job looking for Heart. It's always like this, the point is never having the spy be high ranked officer so he can't get any info...and that's about it. I didn't read your other discussion, whoever is a spy, is not really important right now.

Originally Posted by Kolox

I would be seriously suprised if they didn't have more than one spy in black order - that would mean Earl is doing really shitty job looking for Heart. It's always like this, the point is never having the spy be high ranked officer so he can't get any info...and that's about it. I didn't read your other discussion, whoever is a spy, is not really important right now.

It's important it it's a character we've met, since most of them are important characters with power. If Link is a spy, that says something about what information the Earl is receiving (mostly about Allen), but it could also tell us that the Earl does have plans for Allen that may not just relate to being a possible Heart suspect. Same goes for other characters... overall, if we can identify who may be a spy, it could tell us what the Earl knows and what he wants to know.

And of course the Earl will have plenty of spies. It may not have seemed possible to us when/if we thought he only had akuma and Noah working for him, but human followers make perfect spies. It'd certainly explain how he knew the location of the Order, which... I admit... a number of us didn't think he was aware of.

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

Exactly. The level 4 did give Lenalee the opportunity for a power-up, but I really think it would have been better for Lenalee to kick butt on her own. Aside from that, it destroyed the Order and made everyone move, giving rise to this arc... uh, yay? Couldn't it just have escaped sooner rather than later, so we didn't have to deal with the questions of why Johnny is immortal?

(Hospital gowns? She only wore one like that once, didn't she? The thing she was wearing in the level 4 fight was just really skimpy shorts again, and now she's got dresses of all kinds. What everyone needs is the return to the uniform - or at least give Allen back his ribbon.)

Hear, hear, indeed and whatnot.

( I don't know, but everytime I see her with that hairdo and in a short little dress, I think of a terminally ill cancer patient. I did the same thing with Eureka Seven....however, I now regret ever watching that. HATE IT now. )

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

Maybe... Now that we've seen the 'crystal-type', anything is possible. >_> I was really looking forward to see Lenalee getting a parasitic-type, though! Maybe the Innocence will disappear/become dormant after the Earl is defeated, yeah; it'd be a happy ending for everyone who now do not have to deal with dragging a weapon around everywhere they go. It won't have any future negative effects on the Exorcists, either, which is why I hope for that kind of ending: if Allen doesn't die, he should have a number of years left ahead of him unless he gets hit by a carriage or contracts cancer or something. (Fun ending, huh?)

Well of course. Unable to fight Akuma anymore, there'd be no reason for the Innocence to remain active, right?

The sheer irony of the "hit by a carriage" line just about floored me there, since they added that unnecessary scene in the Anime of the time of Mana's death....and it looked like he'd been run over by a carriage, even though he's assumed to have been killed by the Earl.

( *snigger* Harry Potter 7 gags..... "WHUT? THEY ALL DIED IN A CAR CRASH?" )

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

Yup, there were originally thirteen. Wonder why there *was* a 14th, then? That seems a little more important than just being a random event. I do question his apparent dislike of Noah; he did put up with them for a long time, apparently, and rather than having nothing to do with them, taught Allen how to use the Ark himself. Unless he had an incredible amount of foresight and predicted that Allen would do whatever he ended up doing, it just seems... weird. Cross's role also seems to have been to tell Allen about the Ark at some later time and teach him about it (since who else would do such a thing? - and that'd explain why Timcanpy was with Cross, and ended up being sent with Allen everywhere).

It may be that the nature of the events surrounding the birth of the fourteenth are directly associate with why he hates the Earl, or it may be (for whatever reasons) that he himself was born in order to fight against the Earl. OR, maybe he was born as some sort of weapon or something for the Earl. Who knows? And Cross's level of association with the fourteenth may have been a little less organized, maybe not. Again, Timcanpy seems to imply that there was, at least, some level of planning on both their parts.

That just made me think, if the shadow in the mirror does turn out to be Allen's Inner Noah, then that would explain the whole "my Timcanpy" thing if Timcanpy ends up becoming Allen's. =/ Random thought. Though then again, I thought Timcanpy was imprinted upon his creator.....

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here (except for Allen and Lenalee both not having the Heart; I still think it's one or both of them, mostly since there's been no evidence so far pointing to anyone else). Certainly, if Allen's Innocence were connected to the Noah shadow, it would be a good explanation for why the Innocence hasn't had a negative reaction to any Noah powers (and possibly Noah genes, if you're a fan of the Allen-will-become-a-Noah theory). This isn't even the only connection between Innocence and Noah; the Earl is also somewhat of a clown (he compared himself to the Auguste in chapter 89), and Allen's sword strongly resembles the transformed Lero-sword. Could that also hint at a possible connection between the Order and Noah?

(Maybe the shadow's taller than Allen because... Allen isn't? =P It's been hinted in an inside cover that Allen hasn't stopped growing yet - although Hoshino hasn't depicted that in the artwork - so maybe that's how tall he'll be when... er... Mana always seemed taller in flashbacks, so either he was, or Allen just grew a LOT in three years.)

The use of clowns as symbolism in the whole series brings joy to my heart, simply because it's fairly unique for a manga/anime.

I think--I mean, if you look at it--if it were Mana's "ghost" in a way, Mana would still be taller than Allen....although it does seem like he has, in fact, grown a lot over three years ( I mean, he's like....four foot something in all the flashback scenes of Mana-Akuma and whatnot).

On a somewhat related note to this, I keep going back and looking at that scene after the Ark disappears where the Earl is crying (even though he's supposed to be happy). It may simply be....Earl weirdness.....or it may go back to the scene after Skinn Bolic died where the others' Inner Noahs started crying, and a Noah somewhere on the Ark died...? But then I wonder why Lulubell wasn't crying......

Maybe he was just crying because he was sad about the old ark....though that somehow seems not-very-Early.

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

That sounds really amusing! Care to scan them somehow? :3 It's amazing how one can connect DGM to things in life if it's on one's mind - I'm always looking around at store signs or reading books and thinking 'this reminds me of character X' or 'hey, that store's initials are DGM!' or various things like that. It's just that kind of series, maybe... although it does get awkward when a conversation with a friend inevitably turns to the series because of the tiniest connection... like a clown puppet during babysitting.

I had to wait until my Dad left for work (he wouldn't let me have the paper, since I kind of drew it on the back of the list of files he needed to get his new driver's license for this state....), but now I do indeed have a scan.

Unfortunately it just informed me that my post count is not high enough to post links, so I'll post it when I get to ten posts.

The funny thing is, I didn't even get my permit after all that waiting. =/ I failed the vision test because my left eye couldn't read some line or the other (hardy-har, I should have drawn something about Allen's Akuma-sensing left eye after that), so now I have to get glasses/contacts and then go back and wait AGAIN.

Originally Posted by Kolox

I would be seriously suprised if they didn't have more than one spy in black order - that would mean Earl is doing really shitty job looking for Heart. It's always like this, the point is never having the spy be high ranked officer so he can't get any info...and that's about it. I didn't read your other discussion, whoever is a spy, is not really important right now.

Oh yersh it is important....even in an indirect manner, at least, as it's good to think about what one is reading and try to get insights on plot points. Excercising the brain is healthy, eh wot?

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

It's important it it's a character we've met, since most of them are important characters with power. If Link is a spy, that says something about what information the Earl is receiving (mostly about Allen), but it could also tell us that the Earl does have plans for Allen that may not just relate to being a possible Heart suspect. Same goes for other characters... overall, if we can identify who may be a spy, it could tell us what the Earl knows and what he wants to know.

And of course the Earl will have plenty of spies. It may not have seemed possible to us when/if we thought he only had akuma and Noah working for him, but human followers make perfect spies. It'd certainly explain how he knew the location of the Order, which... I admit... a number of us didn't think he was aware of..

Agreed.

On one hand, though, the Earl knows quite a few things....it's almost like he's got one of those santa-crystal-ball things, y'know (he knows when you are sleeping.... O__o scary when applied to the Earl, come to think of it), because it's not like he's right there listening at every wall whenever somebody dies and somebody close to the dead person gets depressed. Then again, that might be a different matter entirely. If there are spies within the Order, though, it's obvious that moving base isn't going to make them any safer in that sense......

I don't think it's important because I don't think Church knows something that Earl doesn't know already. Pretty much, if Church learns something new, it is mostly :

a) Also witnessed by Earl/Noah/Akuma
b) Something that Earl leaked out, hence he knew about it years ago.

I think high-ranked officers can't really afford cooperating with Earl, being themselves always monitored - hence Cross is so disliked as he actually has more than one chance to contact with Earl. Although I somehow feel that the whole organization in Black Order is rather crappy.

Originally Posted by Paper_Thin_Hymn

Hear, hear, indeed and whatnot.

( I don't know, but everytime I see her with that hairdo and in a short little dress, I think of a terminally ill cancer patient. I did the same thing with Eureka Seven....however, I now regret ever watching that. HATE IT now. )

Aww, really? I love Lenalee's new haircut. It makes her look really different from the Lenalee at the beginning of the series, and I think that fits her better... now that Hoshino isn't drawing the hair awkwardly anymore, like someone took a razor to her head.

Well of course. Unable to fight Akuma anymore, there'd be no reason for the Innocence to remain active, right?

The sheer irony of the "hit by a carriage" line just about floored me there, since they added that unnecessary scene in the Anime of the time of Mana's death....and it looked like he'd been run over by a carriage, even though he's assumed to have been killed by the Earl.

( *snigger* Harry Potter 7 gags..... "WHUT? THEY ALL DIED IN A CAR CRASH?" )

Unless God/whoever has other plans for the Innocence, but I don't think DGM is popular enough to go beyond the death of the Earl. =P

Oh fun! Hey, maybe the Earl plotted Mana's assassination by carriage; you never know. It's not like they could really catch him or anything, but... yeah, and then Allen gets hit by one in the final scenes as the Earl's message from the dead.

It may be that the nature of the events surrounding the birth of the fourteenth are directly associate with why he hates the Earl, or it may be (for whatever reasons) that he himself was born in order to fight against the Earl. OR, maybe he was born as some sort of weapon or something for the Earl. Who knows? And Cross's level of association with the fourteenth may have been a little less organized, maybe not. Again, Timcanpy seems to imply that there was, at least, some level of planning on both their parts.

That just made me think, if the shadow in the mirror does turn out to be Allen's Inner Noah, then that would explain the whole "my Timcanpy" thing if Timcanpy ends up becoming Allen's. =/ Random thought. Though then again, I thought Timcanpy was imprinted upon his creator.....

Timcanpy does have an affinity for Cross, but he's been hanging around Allen way more throughout the story, even when Cross is also nearby. Cross could have been some kind of temporary protector for Tim or something, perhaps... possibly/probably the creator, but it seems like Timcanpy was intended to be a companion for Allen all along. It seems that Cross definitely had Timcanpy before leaving the Order four years ago, so either the golem is reprogrammable or the plot with the 14th goes back even beyond those four years...

...but I'm not so sure of that. Isn't it just a little too convenient for Cross to have received a mission that requires him to find the akuma plant and he just happens to know and be involved with the one person who could get him there? One possibility is that the Order knew about this connection (and Cross is now becoming suspicious of this). Alternatively, maybe Cross went looking for the 14th four years ago, found Mana and some plan to give Allen his powers, and manipulated the situation to his own advantage. The former seems more likely to me right now.

Alternatively, maybe it's not the same Timcanpy: Cross built a new one after he left that looked just like the old one. ...Doesn't seem as likely, but it could happen.

(Strangely enough, the third person Timcanpy seems to like somewhat is Lenalee, and that dialogue between Cross and Lenalee in chapter 134 made me think they knew each other a bit better than just a General and child Exorcist when he was still at the Order. Maybe he taught her how to use Innocence, too? :/ In which case it'd be the same Timcanpy.)

The use of clowns as symbolism in the whole series brings joy to my heart, simply because it's fairly unique for a manga/anime.

I think--I mean, if you look at it--if it were Mana's "ghost" in a way, Mana would still be taller than Allen....although it does seem like he has, in fact, grown a lot over three years ( I mean, he's like....four foot something in all the flashback scenes of Mana-Akuma and whatnot).

On a somewhat related note to this, I keep going back and looking at that scene after the Ark disappears where the Earl is crying (even though he's supposed to be happy). It may simply be....Earl weirdness.....or it may go back to the scene after Skinn Bolic died where the others' Inner Noahs started crying, and a Noah somewhere on the Ark died...? But then I wonder why Lulubell wasn't crying......

Maybe he was just crying because he was sad about the old ark....though that somehow seems not-very-Early.

Four-foot-something? ...Yeah, I guess he'd have to be... but it still looks like Mana's way taller than Allen even in those scenes, probably more than the shadow is taller than him now. I mean, how tall Mana would have been now. (On that note, wouldn't that just make Allen a really short guy? Do people really grow so much that he could reach average height even being so tiny at twelve?)

I love the clowns. <3 It really is unique, and they have so much history/symbolism surrounding them. The fact that so many people tend to be scared of them (although how could ANYONE be scared of Allen) adds to the mysterious and dark setting of the story, too.

The other Noah seemed... required to cry, in a way. It wasn't optional; it was a reflex. Maybe the Earl was crying because he thought the legacy of the 14th had died. Lulu, on the other hand, didn't have the personal history (we know some Noah became Noah after Mana's death), and she didn't need to cry because Allen didn't actually die. Which makes me wonder - was it just because of the 14th and his last remaining mark on the world, or is there something more to Allen than just being the new controller of the Ark?

Unfortunately it just informed me that my post count is not high enough to post links, so I'll post it when I get to ten posts.

The funny thing is, I didn't even get my permit after all that waiting. =/ I failed the vision test because my left eye couldn't read some line or the other (hardy-har, I should have drawn something about Allen's Akuma-sensing left eye after that), so now I have to get glasses/contacts and then go back and wait AGAIN.

Then I shall do my best to aid you in getting those ten posts!

Aww, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get it (even after all that drawing XD), and that there's more waiting ahead... but vision aids will be helpful in the future generally, right? And it'll probably all go well after that~ (On the topic of Allen, how about getting a monocle, just like him? Classic.)

On one hand, though, the Earl knows quite a few things....it's almost like he's got one of those santa-crystal-ball things, y'know (he knows when you are sleeping.... O__o scary when applied to the Earl, come to think of it), because it's not like he's right there listening at every wall whenever somebody dies and somebody close to the dead person gets depressed. Then again, that might be a different matter entirely. If there are spies within the Order, though, it's obvious that moving base isn't going to make them any safer in that sense......

Oh dear god the Earl is Santa. ...Allen being born on Christmas, that explains so much! =P Actually, I think it was revealed in one of the Reverse novels that he has humans working for him who call him when someone nearby dies, so he doesn't really go sneaking around there himself. He does use spies, in a sense, although that doesn't automatically mean he has the traditional ones in the Order. He's really well-connected...

At least moving will mean they don't have to focus on rebuilding, I guess. It's still risky, though - they're really vulnerable to an attack, or would be if the Noah wanted to do so.

Originally Posted by Kolox

I don't think it's important because I don't think Church knows something that Earl doesn't know already. Pretty much, if Church learns something new, it is mostly :

a) Also witnessed by Earl/Noah/Akuma
b) Something that Earl leaked out, hence he knew about it years ago.

I think high-ranked officers can't really afford cooperating with Earl, being themselves always monitored - hence Cross is so disliked as he actually has more than one chance to contact with Earl. Although I somehow feel that the whole organization in Black Order is rather crappy.

We don't know what the Order really does know, though. It's clear that they know more than they pretend to, and what everyone below Rouvelier seems to know, but if they were really so ignorant I doubt they'd have survived even this long - what would be the point in keeping them alive? We DO know what the Earl seems to know since we've not only heard him speak, but seen things kinda from his perspective. The same can't be said for the Order/Vatican, probably since they're a much bigger organization and we don't know any of the characters at the top.

(Komui IS the monitor, har har har.) I don't think the Order's security system is so great that they'd be able to detect the use of golems/Ark/Road-doors inside the Order if done so at an appropriate time and place, like a bedroom at night or something. The fact that Allen IS being watched constantly is something strange to everyone... clearly, very few others if any are so closely watched. Anyway, we know that the Earl likes to communicate by phone, and that's very commonly used by the Order, too... particularly by Komui. If they use a code to make it sound like they're speaking to someone else (Link was writing in one in 161, by the way), who would think anything was wrong?

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

We don't know what the Order really does know, though. It's clear that they know more than they pretend to, and what everyone below Rouvelier seems to know, but if they were really so ignorant I doubt they'd have survived even this long - what would be the point in keeping them alive?

As far as I agree with the fact that Order might know more than they show, it still changes nothing because I still believe they know less than Earl. Earl knows what he wants to achieve, and even if Order would know that fact, it seems they are doing crappy job stopping him. Earl knows what Noah is - even if Order knows it..so what ? Exorcist still can't win against them. They took down one of the stupidiest Noah at cost of almost all their army.

It is not important whatever there is spy or not, since there most likely is. It's important to continue their job as identifying spy is simply impossible at this point.

Originally Posted by Kolox

As far as I agree with the fact that Order might know more than they show, it still changes nothing because I still believe they know less than Earl. Earl knows what he wants to achieve, and even if Order would know that fact, it seems they are doing crappy job stopping him. Earl knows what Noah is - even if Order knows it..so what ? Exorcist still can't win against them. They took down one of the stupidiest Noah at cost of almost all their army.

Didn't they take down Boric at the cost of... uh... nothing? (Since Kanda's okay?) I'm not sure if the Order really has less information than the Earl. We don't even know what the motives of the higher-ups are, or how they plan to achieve those goals, since we see it almost entirely from the perspective of a few soldiers. It's similar to the perspective of an akuma, in a way. Heck, as I said earlier, we don't even know if the Order's real goal IS to take down the Earl like they're doing.

And technically, I'm not so sure the Order couldn't beat the Earl if they tried, either. Pretty much any fighting-class Exorcist can take down akuma up to level 3 without extreme difficulty, and they're evenly matched with the Noah (only there are more Exorcists). One problem is that the Noah/Earl seem to live in the Ark, which is constantly moving, so they'd be hard to find. Even then, the Order hasn't done anything more than send out Exorcists to fight akuma when needed (and note that this is usually after lots of people have died; they're in no hurry) and find Innocence. We've seen no effort on their part to launch any kind of offense whatsoever. Yes, there are decent reasons for this, but since we DON'T know what they know or want, we can't say that the Order is really that stupid and weak, either.

It is not important whatever there is spy or not, since there most likely is. It's important to continue their job as identifying spy is simply impossible at this point.

It's for fan speculation, although it would be in the Order's best interests (if they're not collaborating with the Earl) to find and destroy any spies that actually could pose a threat, whether that be by having too much power or having easy access to information (and have used that).

What the Order and the Earl both seem to want to find is the Heart. The Earl wants to destroy it, since that'll get rid of all Innocence, and the Order apparently wants it so it can be protected, and because it might be a powerful weapon. Could it be more than that, though? It's a bit much to expect of a WSJ manga, but I wonder if they're not both looking for it for the same reason (probably to destroy it), and the Order exists as a place of safety for the person with the Heart. It's the best way to get something you want: pretend someone else wants it to cause harm, and claim that you'll do otherwise. If just the Earl existed, or just the Order existed, there wouldn't be that kind of urgency; the Heart would have no reason to be found by either side. Like this, though...

Originally Posted by Digital_Eon

Didn't they take down Boric at the cost of... uh... nothing?

A great number of exorcists and finders died on black order side, and one Boric died on Earl side.

And technically, I'm not so sure the Order couldn't beat the Earl if they tried, either. Pretty much any fighting-class Exorcist can take down akuma up to level 3 without extreme difficulty, and they're evenly matched with the Noah (only there are more Exorcists).

We told you once with Reinard - that's only true for present exorcists. Any other exorcist wouldn't be able to do it and I doubt Chaoji is that good.

It's for fan speculation, although it would be in the Order's best interests (if they're not collaborating with the Earl) to find and destroy any spies that actually could pose a threat, whether that be by having too much power or having easy access to information (and have used that).

Or even simplier idea which I think Black Order already does. Simply don't give access to information to anyone. Spy problem is solved - if spies can't get anything, Earl won't spend his money or effort to keep them as spies.

What the Order and the Earl both seem to want to find is the Heart. The Earl wants to destroy it, since that'll get rid of all Innocence, and the Order apparently wants it so it can be protected, and because it might be a powerful weapon. Could it be more than that, though? It's a bit much to expect of a WSJ manga, but I wonder if they're not both looking for it for the same reason (probably to destroy it), and the Order exists as a place of safety for the person with the Heart. It's the best way to get something you want: pretend someone else wants it to cause harm, and claim that you'll do otherwise. If just the Earl existed, or just the Order existed, there wouldn't be that kind of urgency; the Heart would have no reason to be found by either side. Like this, though...

Either way, I think that if they will find heart, Earl will know. He only needs to put surveillance on like 10 exorcists. That's not really much of effort for someone who has countless number of akuma on his side.

Originally Posted by Kolox

A great number of exorcists and finders died on black order side, and one Boric died on Earl side.

Not in the same battle. The Exorcists were ambushed by Noah who they had no knowledge of at the time. Boric died because Kanda owned him.

We told you once with Reinard - that's only true for present exorcists. Any other exorcist wouldn't be able to do it and I doubt Chaoji is that good.

The only Exorcists who may not be that strong are Mari (possible, but he has a bigger role now) and Chaoji... and even then, the number of Exorcists vs. Noah are even. I doubt the level 3s are a threat even to them; if Allen could take one down with no problem, why would those two not be able to (even if it's a bit more difficult for them).

Or even simplier idea which I think Black Order already does. Simply don't give access to information to anyone. Spy problem is solved - if spies can't get anything, Earl won't spend his money or effort to keep them as spies.

Someone's gotta know the information. That could be why most of the Order members know nothing, and why I was speculating on if there could be a spy in higher ranks, like who attended the meeting. Also, the Order couldn't stop a spy from causing trouble in the Order that way, particularly if the spy had enough power.

Either way, I think that if they will find heart, Earl will know. He only needs to put surveillance on like 10 exorcists. That's not really much of effort for someone who has countless number of akuma on his side.

He can't use the akuma within the Order. My point was that if the Earl was only acting on his own, how would he find and destroy the Heart? There'd be no incentive for the Exorcist to even use their power anyway; if the Heart is self-aware to the point where it can take such measures to hide itself, how would the Earl find it among billions of people? The existence of the Order, however, provides a place for that Exorcist to eventually go since they now know there is a 'threat'... and a place to hide.

Among Exorcists now, that's not quite true. For all the Earl knows, it seems, the Heart may not have been found by the Order yet (he says that person is out there, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're one of the fourteen Exorcists left... well, not to him). Besides, again, the Heart has been hiding itself very well. Obviously the Earl will find out if the Order does, but that doesn't prove anything one way or another.